Purgatory, a unique Catholic doctrine

[Vicomte13]

Thanks. I have had some Catholics speculate that there is no time in Purgatory which left me wondering concerning the role of indulgences as a means of reducing one's time there.

Jesus said that you'll stay there until the last penny is paid. "Until" is a reference to time. In the absence of anything else, or in the presence of conflicting views, I always go with Jesus (properly translated).

 

[kepha31]

For the benefit of those playing along at home:

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Using the principle that scripture interprets scripture, it is not difficult to understand this passage as follows:

1) This is about the Last Day, the Parousia, a specific moment of time (kairos not chronos), not some on-going purging of indefinite duration or divine punishment for sins already atoned for by the work of Jesus Christ and forgiven, because ...

This is the seemingly impenetrable straw man Protestants have about purgatory. I have addressed this falsehood at least twice. I'll break it down:
But the process of purification doesn’t start in purgatory. It starts in this life, and in Protestant circles it’s known as sanctification. (Catholics also use this term, though not always in exactly the same fashion; the term justification is also used in both circles though not always in the same ways.)

Now, where does sanctification come from? Is it something God gives us by his grace or something that happens apart from his grace?

Protestants will agree with Catholics that it is the product of God’s grace in our lives.

But why is God giving us this grace? Is it because of what his Son did on the Cross or is it separate from that?

Once again, Protestants will agree with Catholics that it is because of what Christ did on the Cross that God sanctifies us.

So sanctification–the process of being made holy–is something that happens to us only because of Christ’s death on the Cross.

Sanctification–including the final stage of sanctification in purgatory–thus presupposes the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice. It is so sufficient that it is not only enough to justify us but enough to sanctify us as well. The difference is that (to use language in a Protestant way) justification is something that happens at the beginning of the Christian life while sanctification is something that happens over the course of it.

2) In Matthew 28:31-46 we see the same event viewed from another eschatological perspective. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats Jesus explains how the fruits of our lives (of which we are probably completely unaware: "Lord, when did we...?") are weighed and tallied. Those whose works flow from faith in Christ, whose works are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, will enter into God's kingdom to the place prepared for them. Those whose works were not from faith in Christ are dispatched to eternal fire (Malachi 4:1).

The final judgement has nothing to do with purgatory, they are not the same thing.

3) Even those whose works flow from faith in Christ have a mixture of faithful and unfaithful works, we are simultaneously justified and sinful after all. Those works done from faith in Christ endure and are celebrated to the glory of God. Those not done from faith are sinful trash (Romans 14:23) and perish with the fallen, sinful world to which they belong. The works of the Sheep are judged, sifted, winnowed, and passed through a fiery crucible (Proverbs 17:3): gold and wood, silver and hay, precious stones and straw. Those that were from faith in Christ are kept, those from the flesh are commended to the flames.

So if you have a few minor imperfections you go to hell? What's the point in "the Lord trieth the hearts" in Proverbs 17:3?

4) So even those who are save by God will be purified on the Last Day. At the Resurrection we will all stand before God to give an account of our lives (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:12). Those who trust in their supposed good works, who seek to justify themselves through obedience to the law, will be condemned for their failure to perfectly observe the law in which they placed their faith. Those who acknowledge their utter sinfulness and call to Christ alone for mercy will receive mercy from the hand of God. "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, St Luke 18)

"4) So even those who are save by God will be purified on the Last Day." yet you insist there is no need for purification.

 

[kepha31]

The options I gave are those which I have heard innumerable times from both Catholics and Protestants in discussions concerning Purgatory.

You have heard with biased ears. None of the options are suitable so I couldn't answer any of them. I posted a lot of authoritive material on purgatory in this thread but you have some sort of mental block and don't get it.

I will now ask you a simple question. Is there time in Purgatory? A simple yes or no will suffice.

This is typical dichotomous either/or thinking in Protestantism. The answer is "the Church doesn't know anyone's duration". I would add there is no time in eternity so you can't figure it out with a calculator.

I suggest you use the biblical Hebraic both/and approach to scripture, not the either/or mentality (Calvin is notorious for that) Heaven or hell is a false dichotomy, (either/or) there is no room for the saved to get purified. God cannot be robbed of His justice and mercy which is exactly what a non-purgatory system does.

 

[Panevino]

Thanks. I have had some Catholics speculate that there is no time in Purgatory which left me wondering concerning the role of indulgences as a means of reducing one's time there.

Time has been used as tool to give a recognizable measure or a temporal/earthly equivalence for the purification that occurs in purgatory.
See extract below of this website

".....Third, Protestants are often confused by the number of “days” that used to be attached to indulgences. They have nothing to do with time in purgatory. Indulgences originally arose as a way of shortening a penitential period on earth. The number of “days” that were attached to indulgences were not understood as shortening time in purgatory, but as easing the purification after death by an amount analogous to the shortening of an earthly penitential period by the number of days indicated.

Fourth, because some people were confused by thinking purgatory was shortened by a set number of days with an indulgence, the Church abolished the “day” figures attached to indulgences specifically to eliminate this confusion...."
How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

 

[bbbbbbb]

Gehenna IS Purgatory. It's not an "either". Purgatory is the Latinate word for what Gehenna is. Go look up "Jewish Purgatory" or "Jewish Gehenna" online and you will be able to read all you want on the subject.

Christians try to be lawyers with texts that were not written by lawyers to be law books. It's a weakness of Christian theology because the original writers of the Christian and Jewish Scriptures did not take care to make a legal consistency between the different works.

Thank you for the challenge. This is what I found in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory.

There is no concesus among the Jews concerning this state of being. The Hillelites (of whom Saint Paul was one) do not believein it. For those who do, it bears only a passing resemblance to the Catholic version. First, the time element is much shorter and is unrelated to the moral sin of the individual. All souls are there for the same amount of time.
Second, there is no concept of purging or punishment for sins. Third, the souls there float from one state to the other and are not totally confined as in the Catholic purgatory. One must conclude that, as with many other aspects of Catholic teaching, Purgatory was developed apart from Jewish belief even as the Catholic canon of scripture, which shares most of its books in common with the Jewish canon, is no the product of Jewish belief.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Time has been used as tool to give a recognizable measure or a temporal/earthly equivalence for the purification that occurs in purgatory.
See extract below of this website

".....Third, Protestants are often confused by the number of “days” that used to be attached to indulgences. They have nothing to do with time in purgatory. Indulgences originally arose as a way of shortening a penitential period on earth. The number of “days” that were attached to indulgences were not understood as shortening time in purgatory, but as easing the purification after death by an amount analogous to the shortening of an earthly penitential period by the number of days indicated.

Fourth, because some people were confused by thinking purgatory was shortened by a set number of days with an indulgence, the Church abolished the “day” figures attached to indulgences specifically to eliminate this confusion...."
How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

I do find it curious that not all that terribly long ago the Catholic Church itself marketed indulgences as the means of shortening of time spent in Purgatory, not merely easing the suffering of souls there. ""As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs." The abuse of that couplet was dealt with in the CounterReformation, but the concept of reducing time in Purgatory remains to this day among many Catholics.

As newadvent.com states in its lengthy blog on induldences - an indulgence is a remission of the temporal punishment due to sin.

If that is true, then it seems superfluous to keep a soul in Purgatory for no other reason than he needs to serve his time despite the fact that his punishment (included the allotted time in Purgatory) has been remitted. To do so indicates, at best, a partial remittance - only of the corporal aspect of punishment and not of the time in detention.

 

[kepha31]

Thank you for the challenge. This is what I found in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

There is no concesus among the Jews concerning this state of being. The Hillelites (of whom Saint Paul was one) do not believein it. For those who do, it bears only a passing resemblance to the Catholic version. First, the time element is much shorter and is unrelated to the moral sin of the individual. All souls are there for the same amount of time.
Second, there is no concept of purging or punishment for sins. Third, the souls there float from one state to the other and are not totally confined as in the Catholic purgatory. One must conclude that, as with many other aspects of Catholic teaching, Purgatory was developed apart from Jewish belief even as the Catholic canon of scripture, which shares most of its books in common with the Jewish canon, is no the product of Jewish belief.
The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory

For the third time:

I was told that devout Jews believe in purgatory. Is this true?
Answer

In essence, yes, though they do not call it purgatory. Jews do believe in a purification (a purgation) which takes place after death. When a Jewish person's loved one dies, it is customary to pray on his behalf for eleven months using a prayer known as the mourner's Qaddish (derived from the Hebrew word meaning "holy"). This prayer is used to ask God to hasten the purification of the loved one's soul. The Qaddish is prayed for only eleven months because it is thought to be an insult to imply that the loved one's sins were so severe that he would require a full year of purification.

The practice of praying for the dead has been part of the Jewish faith since before Christ. Remember that 2 Maccabees 12:39-46, on which Catholics base their observance of this practice, shows that, a century and a half before Christ, prayer for the dead was taken for granted. Unlike Protestantism, Catholicism has preserved this authentic element of Judeo-Christian faith.
Do devout Jews believe in purgatory? | Catholic Answers

 

[bbbbbbb]

You have heard with biased ears. None of the options are suitable so I couldn't answer any of them. I posted a lot of authoritive material on purgatory in this thread but you have some sort of mental block and don't get it.
This is typical dichotomous either/or thinking in Protestantism. The answer is "the Church doesn't know anyone's duration". I would add there is no time in eternity so you can't figure it out with a calculator.

I suggest you use the biblical Hebraic both/and approach to scripture, not the either/or mentality (Calvin is notorious for that) Heaven or hell is a false dichotomy, (either/or) there is no room for the saved to get purified. God cannot be robbed of His justice and mercy which is exactly what a non-purgatory system does.

Herein lies a serious disagreement among sincere Catholics. A previous Catholic poster answered in the affirmative that there is time in Purgatory and Panevino also has affirmed the concept of time. However, you believe that Purgatory is timeless - without beginning and without end.

If that is the case, then anyone who is in an eternal state such as this will be there forever because there is no beginning nor end to it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For the third time:

I was told that devout Jews believe in purgatory. Is this true?
Answer

In essence, yes, though they do not call it purgatory. Jews do believe in a purification (a purgation) which takes place after death. When a Jewish person's loved one dies, it is customary to pray on his behalf for eleven months using a prayer known as the mourner's Qaddish (derived from the Hebrew word meaning "holy"). This prayer is used to ask God to hasten the purification of the loved one's soul. The Qaddish is prayed for only eleven months because it is thought to be an insult to imply that the loved one's sins were so severe that he would require a full year of purification.

The practice of praying for the dead has been part of the Jewish faith since before Christ. Remember that 2 Maccabees 12:39-46, on which Catholics base their observance of this practice, shows that, a century and a half before Christ, prayer for the dead was taken for granted. Unlike Protestantism, Catholicism has preserved this authentic element of Judeo-Christian faith.
Do devout Jews believe in purgatory? | Catholic Answers

Did you read the article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia? If so, would you care to comment on it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You have heard with biased ears. None of the options are suitable so I couldn't answer any of them. I posted a lot of authoritive material on purgatory in this thread but you have some sort of mental block and don't get it.
This is typical dichotomous either/or thinking in Protestantism. The answer is "the Church doesn't know anyone's duration". I would add there is no time in eternity so you can't figure it out with a calculator.

I suggest you use the biblical Hebraic both/and approach to scripture, not the either/or mentality (Calvin is notorious for that) Heaven or hell is a false dichotomy, (either/or) there is no room for the saved to get purified. God cannot be robbed of His justice and mercy which is exactly what a non-purgatory system does.

If I understand you correctly you are positing a position where Purgatory is both eternal and temporal. Am I correct in this understanding?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus said that you'll stay there until the last penny is paid. "Until" is a reference to time. In the absence of anything else, or in the presence of conflicting views, I always go with Jesus (properly translated).

If you read the parable, the crafty steward who was sent to prison owed a debt which, in modern terms, amounted to hundreds of millions of dollars and he would not be released until he had paid every last cent of his debt. We have here the concept of a debtor's prison. In a prison there is no possibility of earning money. A prisoner has no remunerative occupation. Therefore, what Jesus was teaching is that the hell-deserving sinner will be in hell until (a hyperbolic impossibility) forever - because there is no money or means of working onself out the spiritual debt of sin. It is a truly pathetic thing when humans believe that they can or must do something to pay for their sins when, in fact, God has graciously forgiven all of our sins through the merits of His son, Jesus Christ. Psalm 103

 

[Albion]

Herein lies a serious disagreement among sincere Catholics. A previous Catholic poster answered in the affirmative that there is time in Purgatory and Panevino also has affirmed the concept of time. However, you believe that Purgatory is timeless - without beginning and without end.

If that is the case, then anyone who is in an eternal state such as this will be there forever because there is no beginning nor end to it.

Isn't the point there simply that time as we know it doesn't exist in the afterlife? That would be true of Heaven and Hell as well. I didn't think that the idea was that Purgatory, if it exists, is eternal (and the Catholic Church specifically and emphatically teaches that it is not).

BTW, the RCC has taught that indulgences shorten one's time in Purgatory while also pointing out that time doesn't exist there. It's just a way of ranking the relative indulgences (30 days off, 7 years, plenary indulgence, etc.).

 

[Panevino]

I do find it curious that not all that terribly long ago the Catholic Church itself marketed indulgences as the means of shortening of time spent in Purgatory, not merely easing the suffering of souls there. ""As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs."

indulgences are not a negative thing, they are an encouragement to grow closer in relationship to God to deal with the damage caused by sin, a call to prayer alms giving fasting etc...

The abuse of that couplet was dealt with in the CounterReformation,

nice

but the concept of reducing time in Purgatory remains to this day among many Catholics.

sure need to clarify when we can, but catechism helps, Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

As newadvent.com states in its lengthy blog on induldences - an indulgence is a remission of the temporal punishment due to sin.

yes, temporal. Hence the idea of time used in the past as an equivalence measure of a temporal period.

If that is true, then it seems superfluous to keep a soul in Purgatory for no other reason than he needs to serve his time despite the fact that his punishment (included the allotted time in Purgatory) has been remitted. To do so indicates, at best, a partial remittance - only of the corporal aspect of punishment and not of the time in detention.

if the "allowed time" was dealt with prior death they would not be in purgatory. Remember it's not a simple jail sentence, its a process of purification.

 

[Vicomte13]

Yes. So, when Jesus simply starts speaking of "Gehenna", without defining it, and without any Old Testament antecedent, he is speaking of something that the Jews knew through their extra-biblical traditions, but not Scripture. This is also true of the idea of the "Messiah", which is also absent from the Old Testament, and of the Resurrection, which does not appear until the Maccabees (books that are not in the Protestant Bible).

With 20/20 hindsight, AFTER Jesus spoke of it, it is possible to go back and tease the suffering servant out of Isaiah, but no reference to the word Messiah or the concept of Messiah as son of God appears in the Old Testament at all. It was nevertheless very plainly a strong part of Jewish tradition at the time of Christ, for the Jews speak of it to him quite a bit. This is an example of a Jewish tradition that is not in the Bible that was nevertheless TRUE, demonstrating things that were revealed by God to the Jews outside of the Bible, through the prophetic office of the High Priest.

Note that it is precisely this relationship between the Pope and the Church that Catholics believe continues with the Church - that the Prophetic Office - the direct connection with God through which God continues to directly reveal his will - remains with the Church. This is why attempting to bind the Catholic Church to whatever was written in 100s AD and before does not work theologically: the Church ITSELF is the house of God on earth, with the Holy Spirit living there and continuing to reveal additional information, new miracles, clarification of old understandings. This is just exactly what the High Priest did under the Mosaic Covenant, and Peter and his heirs now wear that office.

(I don't expect you to AGREE with the Catholics on this. Indeed, it is heretical to your belief system. Nevertheless, I want you to understand that Catholics believe that the Pope and the Church are the heirs of the high priesthood and the Temple, and that all of the ACTUAL prophetic authority of the High Priest and Temple of Israel continues to exist, and reposes in the Pope and the Catholic Church - there is no break in continuity. You're not going to agree, but if you want to understand, then you at least need to know what the belief system is, and where it comes from.)

Protestants think that the authority of God reposes in the Book. Catholics believe, as the Jews did before them, that God literally lives within the Temple, and the Church IS the Temple, the Pope IS the High Priest. Most Catholics don't put it this way, and think of there being a discontinuity between Israel and the Church, but that is what happened when Jesus pronounced the Mosaic judgment of doom on the vineyard, in the parable. When he said that the bad tenants would be cast out and the vineyard would be given to others, he was saying that God would destroy the Jewish Temple and the Jewish priesthood, drive it out, fulfill the penalty clause of the Mosaic covenant, and that a Jewish remnant only - the Christian Apostles and their Christian-Jewish followers, would be given the vineyard and the authority. That inrushing of the Spirit into the Church occurred on Pentecost. The utter and permanent destruction of the Jewish Temple and annhilation of the Jewish priesthood occurred later that generation, in 69 AD, and and was completed with Bar Kochba's revolt and the the aftermath in the 120s AD.

To return to Gehenna, the Resurrection and the Messiah, those three truths were revealed to the Jews by God NOT through the Bible. Only the vaguest part-shadow of those three doctrines appear in the Bible.

Now, to be clear, some of those things are much more in evidence in things like the Book of Enoch, which Jesus seems to have quoted quite a bit (hang an asterisk here that we can discuss later if you really want to), but the Hebrew Bible, the canon of the Jews today, and of the Protestants, does not contain books that have any clear reference to these things.

Isaiah's suffering servant is only visible as the Messiah in retrospect, and then only because Jesus himself made the connection.

Purgatory - Gehenna - is a concept just like Messiah or the Resurrection: commonly held and understood among many of the Jews (rejected by others), in the time of Jesus. That is why Jesus could simply use the word "Gehenna", without explanation at all, and his audience knew what he was talking about.

Jewish Purgatory is Gehenna. You die, you are purified, you go onto Paradise. In the parable of the unforgiving servant, Jesus' promise and warning that God will do the same thing to you: throw you in prison to be tortured until the last penny is paid, unless you forgive, is a full-on expression of Purgatory, but with a twist - Jesus gives a way that man can be forgiven his sins.

Jesus makes this point a few times, which is why it is disheartening how little Christians refer to it. Jesus said, even taught us to pray, that to be forgiven our sins by God we have to forgive other people their sins against us. It's front and center in the very parable that gives the "or else" - and the "or else" is punishment in a soul prison, by God, "until...". That's Gehenna, and that's Purgatory.

Catholic scholars err when they say that Purgatory is the product of reason but not in the Bible. It IS in the Bible: it's called Gehenna.

 

[Panevino]

Herein lies a serious disagreement among sincere Catholics. A previous Catholic poster answered in the affirmative that there is time in Purgatory and Panevino also has affirmed the concept of time. However, you believe that Purgatory is timeless - without beginning and without end.

If that is the case, then anyone who is in an eternal state such as this will be there forever because there is no beginning nor end to it.

Just to clarify my posts are not describing the possibility of functional watch in purgatory. I've tried to say that time has been used in the past as a way of giving meaning to people of a temporal (earthly) equivalence of measure for the purification that takes place in purgatory. Kind of like giving it a rating out of 5 stars for a crude example. So as heaven is outside of time, so is purgatory. As you may know purgatory is considered a period of purification, like falling on your face in the presence of God, saved, yet through fire.

 

[Vicomte13]

Herein lies a serious disagreement among sincere Catholics. A previous Catholic poster answered in the affirmative that there is time in Purgatory and Panevino also has affirmed the concept of time. However, you believe that Purgatory is timeless - without beginning and without end.

If that is the case, then anyone who is in an eternal state such as this will be there forever because there is no beginning nor end to it.

I'll comment. The problem with Gehenna is that God really didn't reveal a whole bunch about it beyond its name, its heat, and its unpleasantness. In that sense, it is much like the Trinity, which is not revealed by name. One can consult Scripture and find only the foundations for Trinity or Purgatory or Original Sin.

After that, there have been scholarly and religious efforts to flesh out the doctrines, but these are not as widely disseminated as, say, the Bible is, and they are not universally accepted, believed, or even thought about.

So, what you will discover on this topic and virtually every other one is that if you drill down, among Catholics there is only consistency of belief on the very broad overlays of the religion. Down in the details the Church does not insist on much, and Catholics are largely free to think about these things as their reason tells them.

Catholics agree on the creed, and they agree on a few other things, and after that the religion is quite individualistic.

One can contrast this with Protestantism, which has many branches, with each branch having a remarkable consistency of belief among its members - indeed, that is why they are members.

"Membership" means something different in Protestant Churches also.

Catholicism comes out of Judaism and shares many of its traits. In truth, Catholicism is the Judaism of the Temple, that existed at the time of Christ but ceased to exist in that generation - it is priestly, with sacrifice and sacrament. Protestantism came out of, and developed in reaction to, Catholicism, a millennium and a half later, and it was a product of the printing press.

The a priori of the religions are different, and it is more difficult for Catholics and Protestants to understand each other than it is for Catholics and Jews to understand each other. The religion IS the culture for Jewish and Catholic (Italian/Spanish, etc.) society, and culture comes from folk practice and tradition, not law, logic and books. Tradition is loose and broad and ingrained by habit and practice. It isn't all intellectually thought out - intellect merely serves to backfill and try to explain. Everything in Protestantism is thought out legalistically - including the decision to reject legalism, which is itself done legalistically.

Because of the very long history of bloodshed and hatred between Jews and Christians, with the Jews at the losing end of it after the 4th Century, there is always a great deal of friction and difficulty speaking across the Jewish/Christian lines. It's not impossible, but it's hard.

Because of the much greater violence, in modern times, in the Catholic/Protestant divide, there is less patience with each other, and far less desire to understand. There remains the desire to ACCUSE, to SCORN, to BELITTLE. And that quickly rears its head when Catholics and Protestants try to talk to each other about something like Purgatory.

I myself have found that when I try to discuss my religion the way I myself see it and live it, that there is very little common ground with Protestants, and that having the discussion is hard and quite unrewarding.

 

[Vicomte13]

If you read the parable, the crafty steward who was sent to prison owed a debt which, in modern terms, amounted to hundreds of millions of dollars and he would not be released until he had paid every last cent of his debt. We have here the concept of a debtor's prison. In a prison there is no possibility of earning money. A prisoner has no remunerative occupation. Therefore, what Jesus was teaching is that the hell-deserving sinner will be in hell until (a hyperbolic impossibility) forever - because there is no money or means of working onself out the spiritual debt of sin. It is a truly pathetic thing when humans believe that they can or must do something to pay for their sins when, in fact, God has graciously forgiven all of our sins through the merits of His son, Jesus Christ. Psalm 103

I dislike the language "If you read the parable". I have read the parable, as many, perhaps more, times than you have. I have thought about it as deeply as you have. I have considered the parable in light of the other things that Jesus said and did. I have come to the conclusions to which I have come based on that study and contemplation. When you say "If you read the parable", you are suggesting that I'm ignorant of what it says, or perhaps just stupid, because I don't come to the same conclusion that you do.

This makes me angry. It is why I detest discussing anything with Christians. They resort to casual insult as a matter of habit. It offends me, and it makes me wonder why I bother to even try. I frequently come to the conclusion I need not bother.

As to your points, I read them, I considered them, I find the logic to be lacking. It assumes facts not on offer, and it produces a conclusion that contradicts other things that Jesus said.

Given this, what is to be done?
All experience has shown me that, because what is at stake is merely fundamental beliefs about the very structure of the universe, no agreement is possible at all. To agree on anything would be to concede non-negotiable points.

Faced with that, the choice is to go to war - and it is so easy to do after one's intelligence and diligence have been insulted that it is the natural thing to do - or to keep the peace and walk away.

Historically, what happens when pearls are cast before swine is that the swine do indeed trample them, and turn and attack the bearer...and then the bearer's bereaved family come and slaughter the pig and have pork for dinner. What was accomplished? One person maimed, one pig dead, pearls ruined, and a family fed...with unclean food if they're Jews or Messianic Christians.

The best advice I can give myself? Resist the temptation to rise to the bait, say goodbye and walk away. Gehenna is what it is, and we'll eventually all find out the way things really are. That will certainly not be from one another.

Much hope has been placed in ecumenical dialogue. In my experience, it ends up being utterly useless. Better to simply remain silent and walk away. That's hard to do, but it is for the best.

Adieu.

 

[kepha31]

Herein lies a serious disagreement among sincere Catholics. A previous Catholic poster answered in the affirmative that there is time in Purgatory and Panevino also has affirmed the concept of time. However, you believe that Purgatory is timeless - without beginning and without end.

Stop twisting my words. Paneveno in post #132 said "Fourth, because some people were confused by thinking purgatory was shortened by a set number of days with an indulgence, the Church abolished the “day” figures attached to indulgences specifically to eliminate this confusion...."does not contradict with "there is no time in eternity" which means time in purgatory is impossible to measure. Use the quote feature instead of pitting one Catholic against the other with your editorialized fabrications.

If that is the case, then anyone who is in an eternal state such as this will be there forever because there is no beginning nor end to it.

According to your inability to read posts.
..

 

[Phil 1:21]

Purgatory is an excellent example of what happens when an organized religion disregards the supremacy of scripture.

 

[kepha31]

Myths about Indulgences
Indulgences. The very word stirs up more misconceptions than perhaps any other teaching in Catholic theology. Those who attack the Church for its use of indulgences rely upon—and take advantage of—the ignorance of both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What is an indulgence? The Church explains, "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). To see the biblical foundations for indulgences, see the Catholic Answers tract A Primer on Indulgences.

Step number one in explaining indulgences is to know what they are. Step number two is to clarify what they are not. Here are the seven most common myths about indulgences:

Myth 1: A person can buy his way out of hell with indulgences.

This charge is without foundation. Since indulgences remit only temporal penalties, they cannot remit the eternal penalty of hell. Once a person is in hell, no amount of indulgences will ever change that fact. The only way to avoid hell is by appealing to God’s eternal mercy while still alive. After death, one’s eternal fate is set (Heb. 9:27).

Myth 2: A person can buy indulgences for sins not yet committed.

The Church has always taught that indulgences do not apply to sins not yet committed. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes, "[An indulgence] is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power."

Myth 3: A person can "buy forgiveness" with indulgences.

The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.

Myth 4: Indulgences were invented as a means for the Church to raise money.

Indulgences developed from reflection on the sacrament of reconciliation. They are a way of shortening the penance of sacramental discipline and were in use centuries before money-related problems appeared.

Myth 5: An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.

The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person’s case.

Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.

The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.

Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.

One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."

Being able to explain these seven myths will be a large step in helping others to understand indulgences. But, there are still questions to be asked: Myths about Indulgences | Catholic Answers