A conversation about unity.

[Xeno.of.athens]

What do you mean as that allows?

As much as experience points to, right? CF is full of Christians how much unity do we have? Reading our posts seems to say "not too much".

Nope but that should not preclude unity.

It does though, doesn't it? Would you go to a church where your children are expected to be baptised by pouring a little water on their head? Or do you need a church that does full submersion as an "adult" in some sort of "believer's baptism"? And would you accept alcohol containing wine in your communion and do you need unleavened bread or is wonder-bread fine with you? And do you want to elect the elders and pastor or have them appointed by a presbytery or by a bishop?

Saying that your church’s teachings are the only one is elitist

Or maybe it is true and you do not want to accept that.

and promotes disunity.

I don’t care for your church’s teachings

Yes, you've made that abundantly clear in many posts. I can feel the disunity.

, although both of us are orthodox Christians.

Not so much really.

I don’t see your church’s governance in the Holy Scriptures and some of your church’s doctrines are questionable at best.

Did you not read the question? Here it is again.

“Do you think that your definition of unity is going to get you to Heaven any different than us poor Protestants?”

I did see and answer that question. It is an irrelevance at best.

The question is about your definition of unity in relation with salvation. Is your church’s governance going to get you into Heaven any different than my church’s governance? Is your version of the sacraments going to get you into heaven any different than my church’s version of the sacraments? Is your church’s version of orthodox doctrine going to get you into heaven any different that my church’s version of orthodox doctrine?

I think the above is repetitious material previously dealt with.

 

[Hentenza]

I did see and answer that question. It is an irrelevance at best.

I think the above is repetitious material previously dealt with.

It is actually very relevant. All of us are guests in this world and look forward to dwell with our Lord in the next. Your refusal to address the questions is quite telling.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is actually very relevant. All of us are guests in this world and look forward to dwell with our Lord in the next. Your refusal to address the questions is quite telling.

Go on, tell us what it allegedly tells.

 

[Hentenza]

Go on, tell us what it allegedly tells.

But first you have to answer the questions because you have not. Here let me rephrase the questions one more time.

The end game for all Christians is salvation. All of us want to give glory to God and be invited to dwell with Him for all eternity. Do you disagree with that?

Given our goals above, does the governance of your church give you an advantage in that quest compared to the governance of my church? Does the orthodox doctrines of your church gives you an advantage over the orthodox doctrines of my church? Does you church’s version of the sacraments give you an advantage over my church’s version of the sacraments? Do you have a better chance of going to heaven than those in a different Orthodox Church?

I expect for you to dodge these questions again. I know how hard they are to answer.

 

[ozso]

Why do you think that church unity has anything whatever to do with Protestants going to heaven?

There probably aren't going to be any Protestants in heaven, or Catholics, or Orthodox etc. Most likely none of that is going to exist there, and all of our precious dividing doctrines, practices and traditions will get burned up like wood, hay and stubble.

 

[Hentenza]

There probably aren't going to be any Protestants in heaven, or Catholics, or Orthodox etc. Most likely none of that is going to exist there, and all of our precious doctrines, practices and traditions will get burned up like wood, hay and stubble.

Psst. You gave him the partial answers to my questions,

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But first you have to answer the questions because you have not. Here let me rephrase the questions one more time.

I do not see how repetition helps but ...

The end game for all Christians is salvation.

What does that mean? Is it that we're in this all for what we will get at the end?

All of us want to give glory to God and be invited to dwell with Him for all eternity. Do you disagree with that?

That reads like a paraphrase of the Westminster shorter catechism -

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever.

The ultimate purpose of human life, according to Catholic teaching, is to know, love, and serve God in this life, and to be united with Him forever in the next. Created in His image and called to share in His divine life, each person is invited into communion with God through grace, prayer, sacramental life, and moral fidelity. This end is not merely functional or external but constitutes the fulfilment of the human person’s deepest identity and vocation. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms, “God created man to make him share in His own blessed life” (CCC §1), and this beatific vision—seeing God face to face—is the consummation of all desire and the perfection of joy.

Is that what you mean or do you think we differ?

Given our goals above, does the governance of your church give you an advantage in that quest compared to the governance of my church?

Your question really is irrelevant - church governance is a gift from God, how can one refuse God's gifts without being discourteous? Bishop, priest, deacon, and parishioners is the order given by God for the government of his Church. It is what Catholics adhere to. It is what Catholics adhered to in the first century and all the way to now. What your church does is more "democratic" I guess, is that so? And why do you think it confers either advantage or disadvantage as far as the last judgement and your final disposition is concerned?

Does the orthodox doctrines of your church gives you an advantage

Yes.

over the orthodox doctrines of my church?

Yours is not Orthodox, it is something else, right? Not Catholic, not Orthodox, but something Protestant from the sixteenth century, right?

Does you church’s version of the sacraments give you an advantage

The sacraments are not a "version" and yes they do give an advantage when compared to those who have only preserved baptism as a sacrament.

over my church’s version of the sacraments? Do you have a better chance of going to heaven than those in a different Orthodox Church?

Yours is a Protestant church and not an Orthodox one.

I expect for you to dodge these questions again. I know how hard they are to answer.

Saying that your question is an irrelevance is not dodging it it is dismissing it as the locus for a discussion about unity.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Psst. You gave him the partial answers to my questions,

Pssst, so God's gifts will burn up because God gave wood, stubble, and hay? Really?

 

[A New Dawn]

Experience will tell you. How much unity do you have with Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians and so forth? Not enough to be in the same church?

Those things are divine gifts, not, as you are soon to say "man made".

The sacraments are gifts from God; it would be at best discourteous to denigrate them.

You did not address my other posts, so I will restate my questions here.

How do you define unity vs. how God would define it?
How does your definition of unity (putting things not of God in priority to God’s will) interfere with what unity really means? As I expressed in my previous post.

And no, I don’t see doctrine or governance present in the Bible, especially as central to Christ’s teachings or purpose, so I don’t believe they come from God. In fact, I don’t see much in the Catholic Church that resembles the NT church at all. That doesn’t mean I don’t see members of yours or any other’s church as brothers and sisters in Christ. I might speak about doctrine as not being Biblical but I would not question another’s testimony if they are seeking after Christ, also. That is what unity is. Not forcing someone to kowtow to a specific doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There probably aren't going to be any Protestants in heaven, or Catholics, or Orthodox etc. Most likely none of that is going to exist there, and all of our precious dividing doctrines, practices and traditions will get burned up like wood, hay and stubble.

For one who pays lip service to the primacy of holy scripture you seem very keen to dismiss what holy scripture says about sacraments, doctrine, and governance.

 

[A New Dawn]

For one who pays lip service to the primacy of holy scripture you seem very keen to dismiss what holy scripture says about sacraments, doctrine, and governance.

Enlighten us then on what the scriptures say about them. Specifically where it says that the ordinances Christ instructed us to do (communion and baptism, specifically) carry salvific properties.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You did not address my other posts, so I will restate my questions here.

How do you define unity vs. how God would define it?

I gave three criteria, sacramental unity, doctrinal unity, governance unity. All three are in holy scripture, God gave us holy scripture, therefore the criteria are the same as God's criteria.

The call to unity in doctrine, sacramental life, and ecclesial governance is deeply embedded in Scripture. Below is a list of passages that collectively affirm this tri-fold unity, with brief annotations to clarify their relevance:

---

Unity of Doctrine​

• Ephesians 4:3–6 — “One body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism…”
  Paul exhorts believers to preserve doctrinal unity grounded in shared belief and sacramental identity.
• 1 Corinthians 1:10 — “That you be perfectly united in mind and judgement.”
  A direct appeal against divisions, urging intellectual and doctrinal harmony within the Church.
• 2 Timothy 1:13–14 — “Hold to the standard of sound teaching… guard the good deposit.”
  Paul charges Timothy to preserve apostolic doctrine as a sacred trust.

---

️ Unity in Sacramental Life​

• Acts 2:42 — “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.”
  The early Church’s unity was expressed through shared teaching and Eucharistic worship.
• 1 Corinthians 10:17 — “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body.”
  The Eucharist is both sign and source of ecclesial unity.
• John 17:21 — “That they may all be one… so that the world may believe.”
  Christ’s high priestly prayer links visible unity—including sacramental communion—with evangelistic witness.

---

️ Unity in Church Governance​

• Matthew 16:18–19 — “You are Peter… I will give you the keys of the kingdom.”
  Christ establishes Petrine authority as foundational to Church governance.
• Titus 1:5 — “Appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.”
  Paul mandates structured leadership to preserve order and sound teaching.
• 1 Timothy 3:1–7 — Outlines qualifications for bishops, emphasising moral integrity and doctrinal fidelity.
• Hebrews 13:17 — “Obey your leaders and submit to them…”
  Affirms the legitimacy of ecclesial authority and the duty of the faithful to cooperate.
• Acts 20:28 — “The Holy Spirit has made you overseers…”
  Apostolic governance is divinely instituted for the care of the Church.

How does your definite of unity (putting things not of God in priority to doctrines of the church) interfere with what unity really means? As I expressed in my previous post.

If you expressed the above in a previous post then it was in error as much in that post as it is here.

And no, I don’t see doctrine or governance present in the Bible, especially as central to Christ’s teachings or purpose, so I don’t believe they come from God. In fact, I don’t see much in the Catholic Church that resembles the NT church at all. That doesn’t mean I don’t see members of yours or any other’s church as brothers and sisters in Christ. I might speak about doctrine as not being Biblical but I would not question another’s testimony if they are seeking after Christ, also. That is what unity is. Not forcing someone to kowtow to a specific doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Enlighten us then on what the scriptures say about them. Specifically where it says that the ordinances Christ instructed us to do (communion and baptism, specifically) carry salvific properties.

see post 712.

 

[Hentenza]

I do not see how repetition helps but ...


What does that mean? Is it that we're in this all for what we will get at the end?

It’s a journey. Don’t tell me that you dont believe in sanctification? Why do you cooperate with God until death?

The ultimate purpose of human life, according to Catholic teaching, is to know, love, and serve God in this life, and to be united with Him forever in the next.

*scratches head* Exactly what I said (except I didn’t say according to Catholic teachings). How do you glorify God and dwell with Him for eternity? Are you here just to argue?

Your question really is irrelevant - church governance is a gift from God, how can one refuse God's gifts without being discourteous? Bishop, priest, deacon, and parishioners is the order given by God for the government of his Church. It is what Catholics adhere to. It is what Catholics adhered to in the first century and all the way to now. What your church does is more "democratic" I guess, is that so? And why do you think it confers either advantage or disadvantage as far as the last judgement and your final disposition is concerned?

So why is your governance a gift from God and the governance of my church isn’t? Be careful I’m well versed in history. BTW- your church’s governance did not originate from the first century but evolve through many centuries.

Yes.

Yay!!!! Look there’s unity.

Yours is not Orthodox, it is something else, right? Not Catholic, not Orthodox, but something Protestant from the sixteenth century, right?

I am orthodox in doctrine. I am not something else. I also sense quite a bit of false pride and arrogance, but the reformation eliminated your church’s monopoly in the west and exposed the errors. You should get over that. Holding on to anger is not heathy.

The sacraments are not a "version" and yes they do give an advantage when compared to those who have only preserved baptism as a sacrament.

Let’s ask Jesus when we get to Heaven. I do recall an argument about who the best apostle was and it did not go so well for them. If you publicly say that those outside of your church can in fact be saved then your answer here is quite hypocritical, however, if you inwardly believe in extra ecclesiam nulla salus then………

Yours is a Protestant church and not an Orthodox one.

My church is an orthodox church because our doctrines are orthodox. It is really quite simple. Now if you are talking about the name of the Orthodox Church then you are right.

Saying that your question is an irrelevance is not dodging it it is dismissing it as the locus for a discussion about unity.

You can’t dismiss logic. Your discussion about unity goes this way: there is unity among the Catholic Churches based on what the Catholic Church believes but there is not unity with the rest of the body of Christ that doesn't believe as the Catholic Church believes. Quite the circular logic..

 

[ozso]

For one who pays lip service to the primacy of holy scripture you seem very keen to dismiss what holy scripture says about sacraments, doctrine, and governance.

Actually I dismiss or at least question what man makes up about sacraments, doctrine, and governance that's outside of scripture or by way of eisegesis.

 

[Hentenza]

Pssst, so God's gifts will burn up because God gave wood, stubble, and hay? Really?

lol Arrogance and pride. Let ask God when we get to Heaven.

 

[Hentenza]

I gave three criteria, sacramental unity, doctrinal unity, governance unity. All three are in holy scripture, God gave us holy scripture, therefore the criteria are the same as God's criteria.

The call to unity in doctrine, sacramental life, and ecclesial governance is deeply embedded in Scripture. Below is a list of passages that collectively affirm this tri-fold unity, with brief annotations to clarify their relevance:

---

Unity of Doctrine​

• Ephesians 4:3–6 — “One body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism…”
  Paul exhorts believers to preserve doctrinal unity grounded in shared belief and sacramental identity.
• 1 Corinthians 1:10 — “That you be perfectly united in mind and judgement.”
  A direct appeal against divisions, urging intellectual and doctrinal harmony within the Church.
• 2 Timothy 1:13–14 — “Hold to the standard of sound teaching… guard the good deposit.”
  Paul charges Timothy to preserve apostolic doctrine as a sacred trust.

---

️ Unity in Sacramental Life​

• Acts 2:42 — “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.”
  The early Church’s unity was expressed through shared teaching and Eucharistic worship.
• 1 Corinthians 10:17 — “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body.”
  The Eucharist is both sign and source of ecclesial unity.
• John 17:21 — “That they may all be one… so that the world may believe.”
  Christ’s high priestly prayer links visible unity—including sacramental communion—with evangelistic witness.

---

️ Unity in Church Governance​

• Matthew 16:18–19 — “You are Peter… I will give you the keys of the kingdom.”
  Christ establishes Petrine authority as foundational to Church governance.
• Titus 1:5 — “Appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.”
  Paul mandates structured leadership to preserve order and sound teaching.
• 1 Timothy 3:1–7 — Outlines qualifications for bishops, emphasising moral integrity and doctrinal fidelity.
• Hebrews 13:17 — “Obey your leaders and submit to them…”
  Affirms the legitimacy of ecclesial authority and the duty of the faithful to cooperate.
• Acts 20:28 — “The Holy Spirit has made you overseers…”
  Apostolic governance is divinely instituted for the care of the Church.

If you expressed the above in a previous post then it was in error as much in that post as it is here.

Do you want to debate your interpretations of these verses? I assure you your interpretations are self serving.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you want to debate your interpretations of these verses? I assure you your interpretations are self serving.

no, I have very low expectations of debates here.

 

[Hentenza]

no, I have very low expectations of debates here.

Sure so we’ll just accept your interpretations blindly.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sure so we’ll just accept your interpretations blindly.

It would be nice to see less sarcasm in your posts.