Purgatory, a unique Catholic doctrine

What is Purgatory?

  • A place of torment and suffering.

    Votes: 3 14.3%
  • A pleasant way station to heaven

    Votes: 2 9.5%
  • Nothing - it does not exist

    Votes: 13 61.9%
  • A place where time is used to determine a Catholic's suffering

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A place where there is no time at all.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • For Catholics only.

    Votes: 2 9.5%
  • For Catholics and some "separated brethren"

    Votes: 1 4.8%
  • For nobody - it does not exist

    Votes: 6 28.6%

  • Total voters
    21

Open Heart

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There is a cloud of individual works before 331 AD, but once The Bible was commissioned as one single book, decisions had to be made. There was no single document before Constantine's Bibles that was "The Septuagint". The first BOOK that was THE Septuagint, as opposed to a bunch of texts not bound together under one cover, was Vaticanus and the other original Bibles.
I disagree. The first century Christians used GREEK texts of the old testament. These texts are referred to as the Septuagint.
 
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gabbi0408

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What I have read of the Septuagint is that it was more than just a "bunch of documents." It was not an official canon in the sense that we think of it today because the Jews did not have a magisterial authority to make it so. However, the Septuagint was the Greek version of Hebrew scriptures and used by the Greek speaking Jews. That alone makes it of an official nature in the context of it's consistent use by a particular group. The Septuagint version was used by the early Christians.

I don't find it problematic that we cannot prove, with documents, a specific set of books from the early centuries. The traditional use and acceptance that was handed down for centuries qualifies as proof.
 
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Vicomte13

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I disagree. The first century Christians used GREEK texts of the old testament. These texts are referred to as the Septuagint.
Yes. But they were not compiled into a single book. Once you put everything under one cover, you have to decide what to leave in and what to leave out. There were Scriptures in the First Century, but there was no Bible. Making a Bible de facto establishes a canon. There was no canon. There were various texts, not bound together.

Enoch and Jubilees, for example. Jesus quoted Enoch quite a bit. Jude referred to it by name, and Peter referred to it without naming it. This was part of those Scriptures that would be called "Septuagint". But it only appears in the Ethiopian Orthodox canon.

Other books from the same period that could be called "Septuagint" don't occur in ANY canon.

There were texts, but there was no bound book, the LXX wasn't a BOOK, with definite bounds until the 4th Century. The texts within Vaticanus existed, as did the texts not in Vaticanus. But nobody had a BIBLE before Vaticanus. It didn't exist.
 
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Open Heart

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Yes. But they were not compiled into a single book.
The fact that they were even translated into Greek shows that they were considered important enough to translate. Remember that the Jewish concept of canon is not like the Christian one. Only the Torah is considered dictated by God. The prophets are considered indirect from God by visions and dreams. ALL THE REST are simply inspired as in regular inspiration. The Writings are simply books that are important to Judaism. Thus, in the first century, if something was translated into Greek, it was because the translator considered it important to Judaism, that Hellenized Jews needed it.

Additionally, you have no proof that there were no compilations. Many things are lost in time to us.
 
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Open Heart

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However, the Septuagint was the Greek version of Hebrew scriptures and used by the Greek speaking Jews.
I agree with you. And I agree that the Early Church used it, which is much more important to its legitimacy as a source for its eventual canonization at Trent.

However, I think it's important to acknowledge that the Jews in the Holy Land did not use it, and for them, the canon was only the Torah and the Prophets, but not the Writings (although the Psalms were held in high esteem). This is backed up by the NT, as both Jesus and Paul refer to Moses and the Prophets, but never mention the Writings, except the Psalms.

In fact, given that Jesus accepted only Moses and the Prophets (and held the Psalms in high esteem), I find it odd that the Early Church accepted the Septuagint. But since it is Protestants that don't accept the authority of the Church, that is something for them to wrestle with.
 
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Vicomte13

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I agree with you. And I agree that the Early Church used it, which is much more important to its legitimacy as a source for its eventual canonization at Trent.

However, I think it's important to acknowledge that the Jews in the Holy Land did not use it, and for them, the canon was only the Torah and the Prophets, but not the Writings (although the Psalms were held in high esteem). This is backed up by the NT, as both Jesus and Paul refer to Moses and the Prophets, but never mention the Writings, except the Psalms.

In fact, given that Jesus accepted only Moses and the Prophets (and held the Psalms in high esteem), I find it odd that the Early Church accepted the Septuagint. But since it is Protestants that don't accept the authority of the Church, that is something for them to wrestle with.

But please remember, the books in question - the deuterocanonical books - were from the period after the conquest of the Middle East by Alexander the Great. Some of these books may not have been translated at all, but were originally written in Koine Greek. Some were probably translated from Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Of course what you say about the Hebrew Scriptures is true, following the tripartite division of the Jewish Scriptures: Torah ("Law"), Nevi'im ("Prophets"), and Kethuvim (*Writings"), with the authority in that order. All of these later texts, whether originally written in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, fall into that third category. Moreover, the Jews don't consider the book of Daniel to be among the Nevi'im, but rather, among the Kethuvim.

Does it matter?

A bit, yes.

One cannot come at these things like a Protestant, pretending that there was this solid book or corpus of scrolls that everybody agreed was "the Bible". That is simply not so. To the Jews, there was the Torah - which was THE scroll. The prophets were important, and read out in synagogue too. Once we're down in the Writings, though, they were many and varied, and there wasn't an effort to make a "canon" out of them. Josephus, who was himself a First Century Jewish priest, writes of the 22 recognized holy books. But the Massoretes used a 24-book canon.

None of these things were as fixed as they are today.

Also, even more importantly, the Jews were not Sola Scripturalists, and neither were the Catholics. First Century Judaism was Papal - The High Priest was the Jewish Pope, and even greater than the Pope, for he was a living prophet of God in a prophetic office. The Catholic Papacy has never claimed such things.

Authority in the Judaism of priest and Temple did not flow from the book. It flowed from God down through the High Priest, then the high priesthood, then the Levitical priesthood. As with the Catholics and the Bible, the Torah was not a thing that could be wielded AGAINST the Temple and the priesthood (other than by Jesus, of course, for he spoke with the authority of God). It was, rather, the written record of the past, of which the living priesthood was the heir.

That is certainly not Protestant thinking, and in a Jewish world that has had no priesthood or Temple for nearly 2000 years, the habit of looking to the Book as the ultimate authority is also ingrained. But it was not so in the First Century: the High Priest was the prophetic, living embodiment of God, and the Sanhedrin, the High Priestly Court, was the Supreme Court of the Jews, deciding what the Law MEANT, just as the Supreme Court does today.

It wasn't until the 900s and 1000s that Jews really developed a book-based "Scripture uber alles" tradition in the Protestant vein, and indeed it is suggested that the Massoretes themselves may have been Karaites.

Of course other Jewish traditions reject Karaitism. Maimonedes wrote that the Karaites are heretics.

I think it is a mistake to think of the Bible the way the Protestants do or as Karaites did (and still do). The focus on text above all other authority is not the religious culture of First Century Judaism OR Christianity.
 
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Vicomte13

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However, I think it's important to acknowledge that the Jews in the Holy Land did not use it, and for them, the canon was only the Torah and the Prophets, but not the Writings (although the Psalms were held in high esteem). This is backed up by the NT, as both Jesus and Paul refer to Moses and the Prophets, but never mention the Writings, except the Psalms.

In fact, given that Jesus accepted only Moses and the Prophets (and held the Psalms in high esteem), I find it odd that the Early Church accepted the Septuagint. But since it is Protestants that don't accept the authority of the Church, that is something for them to wrestle with.

There is a real problem with this. First, Jesus DID quote the writings. Notably, Jesus quoted Enoch. Second, when we look at the quotations from Scripture that Jesus gave, in many of those cases the Greek LXX text differs from the Hebrew of the MT. 5 times out of 6 Jesus used the Greek variant, not the Hebrew variant.

Most tellingly, one of the places where the text differs between the Greek and the Hebrew is in the Isaiah portion that Jesus read aloud in the synagogue at Capernaum. The very passage that Jesus read, that is quoted in the Gospel, is a passage that differs between the Greek and the Hebrew. The version that Jesus read is the Greek variant, from the LXX, and not the Hebrew variant found in the Massoretic Text.

Now, Jesus probably was reading a scroll written in Hebrew, not in Greek. He probably was not reading an LXX Greek text in a synagogue. But that shows that the Hebrew itself, at least in the synagogue of Capernaum, corresponded to the LXX Greek, and NOT to the Hebrew manuscript that was used as the basis for the Massoretic Text.

That's interesting, and it illuminates something important.
 
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Open Heart

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Great Post. I always appreciate good writing.

Some of these books may not have been translated at all, but were originally written in Koine Greek. Some were probably translated from Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Yes, this is certainly true. The Maccabees are a good example. But in these cases, they are later translated into Hebrew, showing that they have become important religious texts.

Is there anything that we haven't gone over? I feel like the conversation is starting to repeat.
 
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Open Heart

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There is a real problem with this. First, Jesus DID quote the writings. Notably, Jesus quoted Enoch. Second, when we look at the quotations from Scripture that Jesus gave, in many of those cases the Greek LXX text differs from the Hebrew of the MT. 5 times out of 6 Jesus used the Greek variant, not the Hebrew variant.

Most tellingly, one of the places where the text differs between the Greek and the Hebrew is in the Isaiah portion that Jesus read aloud in the synagogue at Capernaum. The very passage that Jesus read, that is quoted in the Gospel, is a passage that differs between the Greek and the Hebrew. The version that Jesus read is the Greek variant, from the LXX, and not the Hebrew variant found in the Massoretic Text.

Now, Jesus probably was reading a scroll written in Hebrew, not in Greek. He probably was not reading an LXX Greek text in a synagogue. But that shows that the Hebrew itself, at least in the synagogue of Capernaum, corresponded to the LXX Greek, and NOT to the Hebrew manuscript that was used as the basis for the Massoretic Text.

That's interesting, and it illuminates something important.
Jesus NEVER said, They have Moses, the Prophets, and the Writings. NEVER. Neither did Paul. Quoting something doesn't mean its part of canon. Paul even quoted pagan sources. Should we include Greek poets in our canon? Jesus said, Moses and the Prophets, and once said, Moses the Prophets and the Psalms. Paul said Moses and the Prophets. THAT is what the canon was in those days. A longer Jewish canon with the Writings was not formed until much later in history.

Then as now, the only texts read in the Synagogue Liturgies were Moses and the Prophets.
 
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Vicomte13

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Jesus NEVER said, They have Moses, the Prophets, and the Writings. NEVER. Neither did Paul. Quoting something doesn't mean its part of canon. Paul even quoted pagan sources. Should we include Greek poets in our canon? Jesus said, Moses and the Prophets, and once said, Moses the Prophets and the Psalms. Paul said Moses and the Prophets. THAT is what the canon was in those days. A longer Jewish canon with the Writings was not formed until much later in history.

Then as now, the only texts read in the Synagogue Liturgies were Moses and the Prophets.

No, but he quoted Psalms and Enoch, so he obviously USED the writings.
...
...
What are we struggling about anyway?
Let's not.
 
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bbbbbbb

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No, but he quoted Psalms and Enoch, so he obviously USED the writings.
...
...
What are we struggling about anyway?
Let's not.

Actually, I think the topic for our struggle on this thread is the unique Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. We seem to have drifted from it.

I see that the poll has now neatly resolved itself into nice even numbers - an interesting statistical anomaly which will probably not last.
 
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