Purgatory, a unique Catholic doctrine

[Albion]

Do you really think that you are going to find some Bible verse that will disprove purgatory, when it has been 500 years since the Reformation and all attempts to do so have already failed?

It's a verbal trick to insist that something which ISN'T in the Bible has to be disproven or else it's true.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Purgatory, as we all know, is a Late Medieval invention that was taught in a certain way for about 500 years. Lately, it's been reconsidered by the Roman Catholic Church. So we have the original teaching that supposedly was infallible because the Magisterium agreed upon it--a sort of temporary Hell that everyone who is saved will pass through to "pay" for all minor sins and, also, mortal sins already forgiven--and we also have the revised but unofficial one which is a vaguely defined transitional period or state that's more like an orientation session prior to one's entrance into Heaven. It's been described as the "Celestial Showerbath" (or washroom) by some.

The problem (if that's what it should be called) is that all discussions of this sort founder on the fact that there are two views of Purgatory--the standard one and the whitewashed version that's recently only been created because there aren't many Catholics any longer who will believe in the standard and historic Purgatory.

I think, in addition, that the standard definition may be seen by the church as inhibiting its efforts at outreach, ecumenical relationships, and "come home" campaigns. This probably is enough in itself to justify ditching Purgatory like Limbo was ditched before.

Yes, even ConcreteCamper has not yet affirmed Limbo. Here is what the Council of Trent had to say about it -

"Moreover as Christ was true and perfect man, He of course was capable of dying. Now man dies when the soul is separated from the body. When, therefore, we say that Jesus died, we mean that His soul was disunited from His body. We do not admit, however, that the Divinity was separated from His body. On the contrary, we firmly believe and profess that when His soul was dissociated from His body, His Divinity continued always united both to His body in the sepulchre and to His soul in limbo. It became the Son of God to die, that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death that is the devil, and might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed, Article IV

 

[PeaceB]

It's a verbal trick to insist that something which ISN'T in the Bible has to be disproven or else it's true.

No, that is not what I wrote. As an example, the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura, which you hold, is not found anywhere in Scripture, or the Tradition of the Church. We do not have to find a verse within Scripture that expressly disproves the false man-made doctrine that you hold, to know that it is false (although there are verses within Scripture that do disprove it, as you very well know).

 

[bbbbbbb]

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the thief on the cross and St. Stephen went straight to heaven. That is perfectly reconciled with the Catholic teaching on purgatory, because the Catholic Church does not teach that every person goes through purgatory after death.


Some of them rest without having to go through purgatory, some of them rest after going though purgatory. Problem solved.


Some of the sheep will enter the Kingdom without going through purgatory, and some of the sheep will enter the Kingdom after going through purgatory.

Do you really think that you are going to find some Bible verse that will disprove purgatory, when it has been 500 years since the Reformation and all attempts to do so have already failed?

I find it exceedingly curious that various Catholics loudly accuse Protestants of inventing biblical doctrines which were recorded in scripture and, therefore being a recent creation of only about five centuries when, their own church, by their own admission, invented doctrines such as Purgatory and Limbo at the Council of Trent.

It is impossible to disprove the existence, or non-existence, of something that nobody even thought about. <staff edit>

 

[PeaceB]

I find it exceedingly curious that various Catholics loudly accuse Protestants of inventing biblical doctrines which were recorded in scripture and,

You mean man-made tradition like Sola Scriptura, which Martin Luther invented? Chapter and verse, please.

therefore being a recent creation of only about five centuries when, their own church, by their own admission, invented doctrines such as Purgatory and Limbo at the Council of Trent.

We admit no such thing. We assert that all of our doctrinal beliefs are found in Scripture or the Traditions handed down from the apostles. You do not believe this, obviously.

It is impossible to disprove the existence, or non-existence, of something that nobody even thought about. <staff edit>

No, that is not what the Church does.

 

[Albion]

No, that is not what I wrote. As an example, the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura, which you hold

It's not a tradition. Moreover, I have to reject the argument employed by opponents of Scripture Alone to both claim that it's a tradition and, at the same time, that it's just an invention of someone or other.

All Christian denominations, Catholic no less than Protestant, claim that the Bible is the word of God; we simply say to trust it if that's so.

.

 

[PeaceB]

All Christian denominations, Catholic no less than Protestant, claim that the Bible is the word of God; we simply say to trust it if that's so.

If you trusted Scripture, you would not believe in the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in Scripture, and refuted by Scripture.

 

[Albion]

If you trusted Scripture, you would not believe in the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in Scripture.

I do believe that Scripture exists. What's the argument against it?

BTW the Bible nowhere mentions Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition or describes the theory that there's a parallel stream of divine revelation of equal authority to the Bible...yet some people insist that they believe this concept.

 

[Tangible]

If you trusted Scripture, you would not believe in the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in Scripture, and refuted by Scripture.

Please define Sola Scriptura for us.

 

[W2L]

If you trusted Scripture, you would not believe in the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which is found nowhere in Scripture, and refuted by Scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Albion]

That's 2 Timothy 3:16-17 for the benefit of your readers.

 

[concretecamper]

When Paul wrote that, there was no New Testament. So you reject the New Testament?

 

[W2L]

That's 2 Timothy 3:16-17 for the benefit of your readers.

Thank you, i edited my post

 

[Tangible]

....never again.

 

[Albion]

When Paul wrote that, there was no New Testament.

"When Paul wrote that" says all that's necessary.

 

[PeaceB]

Please define Sola Scriptura for us.

For the sake of argument, let's define it as the belief that Scripture is the only authoritative rule of faith and practice that is binding on a Christian.

 

[W2L]

When Paul wrote that, there was no New Testament. So you reject the New Testament?

No.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.


John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.


1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[Tangible]

For the sake of argument, let's define it as the belief that Scripture is the only authoritative rule of faith and practice that is binding on a Christian.

No. Maybe you should try to understand what Sola Scriptura means before you try to argue against it.

 

[concretecamper]

If anyone is seeking to get a consistent answer on what sola scripture means good luck. I've seen many posted by protestants who claim to have the correct interpretation

 

[PeaceB]

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Oh my! 2 Timothy 3:16. What am I to do?

Come on now, friend. This is the best evidence in all of Scripture that you can offer as proof for your man-made doctrine, yet you accuse Catholics of twisting the Scriptures to support un-biblical doctrine?