Prove me wrong: Every possible starting point to the 70 Weeks Prophecy faces insurmountable problems

[EclipseEventSigns]

Make a timeline chart like I did that reflects your view.

Daniel made his prayer in Daniel 9, in the first year of Darius's rule, Daniel 9:1 - which was 538 BC. Cyrus made his decree in 537 BC.

So there couldn't have been 7 weeks of years, 49 years, between 538 BC an 537 BC. The 49 years are not unto Cyrus.

The messiah in verse 25 and verse 26 is Jesus.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Who said there was 49 years between 538 and 537? There are 7 weeks of years between when God made his command/promise (what "dabar" actually means in Hebrew) and the coming of messiah, Cyrus. As God specifically calls Cyrus hundreds of years before he was even born. God's command as given in Jeremiah, just as Gabriel told Daniel to look for in the 70 Weeks prophecy.
This is the Ezra 6:14 Challenge. Ezra says there were 4 persons, NOT 3 who gave commands.

Many, many people don't do the proper research. Hebrew does not have punctuation. Neither does it have capital/lower case letters. Any translations that says "Messiah" and "Prince" with upper case letters is putting their own bias into the text. The Hebrew does not say that. Anybody who doesn't understand this will never interpret the prophecy correctly.

I have a 7 part video series which lays this out in GREAT detail. All sources given. Lots of pictures for you.

Here is a single image - THE key to the proper interpretation of the 70 Weeks.

 

[David Kent]

Yes, that was definitely the starting year of Christ's ministry with that Mark 1:14-15 announcement, but it was not at AD 27. That announcement was given when John had just been cast into prison in AD 30. "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled..."

Counting backward from AD 30 the 483 years, the starting year of the 70-week prophecy would have been 454 BC - the decree given in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes I's reign in Nehemiah 2, (which included a co-regency period beginning in 474 BC with his father Xerxes).

Well that is not what scripture says. You are relying on secular chronology rather than scripture.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Isaiah 44:28 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him (Cyrus, see verse 1) up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

The seventy years begin with the going forth, the publishing, of God's decree and is was Cyrus who published it.

Martin Anstey in The Romance of Biblical Prophecy, that if the 70 weeks began with Cyrus, then there is a complete Bible chronology from Adam to Christ, but if it was from Artaxerxes then there is a gap of about 82 years.

The Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 can be none other than the pseudo Smerdis, who ruled with his brother according to Herodotus. Note in Era 4:22 t word kings is plural.

In Ezra 6:14-106 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

it was completed in the 6th year of Darius, but it says according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. But the only kings to give that commandment were Cyrus and Darius.

Then we see a great jump from Ezra 6 and Ezra 7 from the 6th year of Darius to the sevent year of Artaxerxes. These two were one and the same person. @Dogggg That solves the problem of the Seven weeks, 49 years durind which the wasll. The command was published in the first year of Cyrus and completed in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes/Darius, "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Well that is not what scripture says. You are relying on secular chronology rather than scripture.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Isaiah 44:28 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him (Cyrus, see verse 1) up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

The seventy years begin with the going forth, the publishing, of God's decree and is was Cyrus who published it.

Martin Anstey in The Romance of Biblical Prophecy, that if the 70 weeks began with Cyrus, then there is a complete Bible chronology from Adam to Christ, but if it was from Artaxerxes then there is a gap of about 82 years.

The Artaxerxes in Ezra 4 can be none other than the pseudo Smerdis, who ruled with his brother according to Herodotus. Note in Era 4:22 t word kings is plural.

In Ezra 6:14-106 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

it was completed in the 6th year of Darius, but it says according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. But the only kings to give that commandment were Cyrus and Darius.

Then we see a great jump from Ezra 6 and Ezra 7 from the 6th year of Darius to the sevent year of Artaxerxes. These two were one and the same person. @Dogggg That solves the problem of the Seven weeks, 49 years durind which the wasll. The command was published in the first year of Cyrus and completed in the 32nd year of Artaxerxes/Darius, "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Several glaring errors according to the text. But the main one is where is the coming of messiah at the END of the first 7 Weeks - 49 years?

 

[Douggg]

I am referring to Herod the great who killed the babies. Jesus was born before Herod died probably about 3 years

-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
BC. AD
There is no year nought.

David, I have already said there is no year zero. Zero is nothing. The first year, going either direction, starts at zero. Look up "number line negative and positive "images on the internet. They all have the zero.

They don't have number lines like you are showing.

 

[Douggg]

Who said there was 49 years between 538 and 537? of the 70 Weeks.

Daniel 9:1
1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Look it up on the internet of when Darius the Medes became king. It was in 538 BC.

The 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel at that time, 538 BC.

How many years from 538 BC until Cyrus's first year as king? 49 years ? No, one year. So you interpretation of the 7 weeks applying to the coming of Cyrus is wrong.

Ezra 5:13 But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God.

The seventy years begin with the going forth, the publishing, of God's decree and is was Cyrus who published it.

I think you meant the seventy weeks of years, not seventy years. According to Ezra 5:13, Cyrus published the decree in his first year as king - which was 537 BC.

Daniel received the prophecy in the first year of Darius the mede as king, 538 BC. In 537 BC, Cyrus published the decree.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well that is not what scripture says. You are relying on secular chronology rather than scripture.

Are you saying that John the Baptist was cast into prison in AD 27? Because scripture says that the time after John had been cast into prison is when Jesus announced in Mark 1:15 that "the time is fulfilled" (the fulfillment of the beginning year of the 70th week).

As for the city of Jerusalem, Nehemiah said that it was still not restored. "...Then I was very sore afraid, and said unto the king, Let the king live forever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?" (Nehemiah 2:2-3). Likewise, these wasted conditions are repeated in Nehemiah 2:17, "Then said I unto them, Ye see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lieth waste, and the gates thereof are burned with fire: come, and let us build up the wall of Jerusalem, that we be no more a reproach."

Even after the wall was built, the distressed conditions in the city are still apparent in Nehemiah 7:4. "Now the city was large and great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded." Cyrus's decree did not address these conditions. The decree of Artaxexes I in 454 BC did address these problems, as well as authorizing and funding the building of the street and the walls of Jerusalem, which were the terms of Daniel 9:25's prediction, "even in troublous times".

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Daniel 9:1
1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Look it up on the internet of when Darius the Medes became king. It was in 538 BC.

The 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel at that time, 538 BC.

How many years from 538 BC until Cyrus's first year as king? 49 years ? No, one year. So you interpretation of the 7 weeks applying to the coming of Cyrus is wrong.

Ezra 5:13 But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God.



I think you meant the seventy weeks of years, not seventy years. According to Ezra 5:13, Cyrus published the decree in his first year as king - which was 537 BC.

Daniel received the prophecy in the first year of Darius the mede as king, 538 BC. In 537 BC, Cyrus published the decree.

It's only your ASSUMPTION that the 70 Weeks started with the decree of Cyrus. That's not the correct interpretation.
Also, Darius became king of Babylon in 539 BC not 538. It was EXACTLY 70 years after Babylon became the dominant empire of the region. 70 years. Again, almost no one recognizes this. They always say the Jews were exiled for 70 years. Not true!! The 70 years is tied specifically to Babylon.

Darius lasted only one year as king of Babylon before Cyrus took over Babylon himself and solidified his rule over the entire realm. This was 538 BC. This is the point where Daniel showed Cyrus where God had named him "messiah" hundreds of years before he was born. This caused Cyrus to issue his decree - even quoting portions of Isaiah in his decree.

But Daniel was already expecting this. Because the year before, in the first year of Darius, in the year Babylon fell, Gabriel told Daniel to look again through Jeremiah and find where God used the words "sub" and "bana" to find the start of the 70 Weeks - the first 7 Weeks. 49 years later, Cyrus acted as God's messiah and fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah.

 

[Douggg]

It's only your ASSUMPTION that the 70 Weeks started with the decree of Cyrus. That's not the correct interpretation.
Also, Darius became king of Babylon in 539 BC not 538. It was EXACTLY 70 years after Babylon became the dominant empire of the region. 70 years. Again, almost no one recognizes this. They always say the Jews were exiled for 70 years. Not true!! The 70 years is tied specifically to Babylon.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

What does that say - Babylon or Jerusalem ?

But Daniel was already expecting this. Because the year before, in the first year of Darius, in the year Babylon fell, Gabriel told Daniel to look again through Jeremiah and find where God used the words "sub" and "bana" to find the start of the 70 Weeks - the first 7 Weeks. 49 years later, Cyrus acted as God's messiah and fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah.

What verse are you claiming that Gabriel told Daniel to look again through Jeremiah ?

 

[Douggg]

The decree of Artaxexes I in 454 BC did address these problems, as well as authorizing and funding the building of the street and the walls of Jerusalem, which were the terms of Daniel 9:25's prediction, "even in troublous times".

I think what happened was that the Samaritans were making it hard for the Judeans (the Jews of Jerusalem) to work on the rebuilding of the city and the wall.... that lasted about eighty something years.... which is called troublous times in verse 25.

Artaxerxes, as you noted, helped the Jews out in their efforts with his decree. The 454 BC would fit in that eighty something year area, on my chart. I am thinking that the wall was finished in 401 BC. And from that point, the 434 years to the messiah (John 12:12-15) and 4 days later the cross.

The temple was built in that 49 year period following Cyrus's decree. Then troubles started up between the Samaritans and the Judeans (the Jews). What I have read is that the Samarians had built their own version of the temple in Samaria. So there was animosity between the two groups over who were the real people of God.

For that reason, in the four gospels, the Samarians were looked upon as the despised Samaritans.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it does not say until the birth of, nor until the death of, in that verse.

"Unto messiah" messiah was fulfilled in John 12:12-15. 4 days later, he was crucified.

The weeks are weeks of years - so we are dealing in years. So the messiah arrived to complete the seven weeks and three score and two weeks - of years (verse 25).

4 days later, after the threecore and two weeks were up (verse 26), the messiah was crucified.

So backtracking from Jesus's death, we get the beginning of the 62 weeks (434 years) period. To get that into BC labeling of what year - we have to take into account the 33 years of Jesus's life. Which is what the chart shows.

That is wrong, because the 69 weeks were up decades prior to the birth of The Messiah.

Anna and Simeon were born at the start of the first century BC. They were the only 2 left of the generation when those 69 weeks ended. That is the point. The Baptism of Jesus was the start of the 70th week, not the birth of Jesus, nor any other event. The Messiah the Prince is the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as Prince. Both has Jesus physically on the earth. Daniel was told by Gabriel; the Prince to come, so the last half is only when the Prince to come is on the earth, just like the Messiah was on the earth. The Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week. Not the start nor the end, but at the middle of.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

What does that say - Babylon or Jerusalem ?

What verse are you claiming that Gabriel told Daniel to look again through Jeremiah ?

Yes, EXACTLY. Read the Hebrew. Not the English translations which mangle the original grammar. The "70 years" is a phrase tied to the "word of Yahweh" given to Jeremiah. It is NOT tied to the entire period which Jerusalem was in a state of ruin. EVERYONE misses this.

God (through Jeremiah) never says Jerusalem would be in state of ruin for 70 years. After all, Nebuchadnezzar completely destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. Cyrus gave his decree allowing the 12 tribes to return in 538 BC. That is only 48 years.

The state of ruin of Jerusalem was complete and God's wrath fulfilled as a part of the 70 years - tied to the time Babylon would be an empire. God specifically stated that Babylon would be an empire for 70 years - no more and no less. And that's what happened between the Battle of Carchemish in 609 BC and the Fall of Babylon in 539 BC. Exactly 70 years. EVERYONE misses this.

This letter of Jeremiah was written to all the exiles living in Babylon. This is actually what Daniel was reading at the start of Chapter 9 and what caused him to realize that the 70 years for BABYLON was over in 539 BC.

But this verse contains even more things that everyone misses. The translated "visit you" should be better translated "oversee" or "appoint". God is saying that He will take action when the 70 Years are finished. This is why Daniel prays "O Lord, give heed and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay," in Dan 9:19. Daniel is praying God's word back to Him.

The translated "establish My good word" should be better translated "confirm" or "fulfill" "My agreeable/positive command" to return the exiles to Jerusalem. It's the same meaning in 9:27 where the covenant will be confirmed/fulfilled which refers to the Covenant God has with His chosen nation of Israel.

 

[Douggg]

That is wrong, because the 69 weeks were up decades prior to the birth of The Messiah.

There are two segments in Daniel 9:25.

a 7 week segment
a 62 week segment

unto messiah. So how can the 69 weeks be up decades prior to the Messiah, when they conclude with the arrival of the Messiah ?

 

[David Kent]

Yes, EXACTLY. Read the Hebrew. Not the English translations which mangle the original grammar. The "70 years" is a phrase tied to the "word of Yahweh" given to Jeremiah. It is NOT tied to the entire period which Jerusalem was in a state of ruin. EVERYONE misses this.

God (through Jeremiah) never says Jerusalem would be in state of ruin for 70 years. After all, Nebuchadnezzar completely destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. Cyrus gave his decree allowing the 12 tribes to return in 538 BC. That is only 48 years.

The state of ruin of Jerusalem was complete and God's wrath fulfilled as a part of the 70 years - tied to the time Babylon would be an empire. God specifically stated that Babylon would be an empire for 70 years - no more and no less. And that's what happened between the Battle of Carchemish in 609 BC and the Fall of Babylon in 539 BC. Exactly 70 years. EVERYONE misses this.

View attachment 336350

This letter of Jeremiah was written to all the exiles living in Babylon. This is actually what Daniel was reading at the start of Chapter 9 and what caused him to realize that the 70 years for BABYLON was over in 539 BC.

But this verse contains even more things that everyone misses. The translated "visit you" should be better translated "oversee" or "appoint". God is saying that He will take action when the 70 Years are finished. This is why Daniel prays "O Lord, give heed and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay," in Dan 9:19. Daniel is praying God's word back to Him.

The translated "establish My good word" should be better translated "confirm" or "fulfill" "My agreeable/positive command" to return the exiles to Jerusalem. It's the same meaning in 9:27 where the covenant will be confirmed/fulfilled which refers to the Covenant God has with His chosen nation of Israel.

it was 70 from the first deportation.
2 Chronicles 36:20-21 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

it was 70 from the first deportation.
2 Chronicles 36:20-21 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

How about addressing the facts which I post and not changing the subject? Besides, the verse you quoted is from the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC, not the first deportation. So it doesn't even provide any evidence for your statement.

 

[David Kent]

The prophecy is about Jerjsalem

How about addressing the facts which I post and not changing the subject? Besides, the verse you quoted is from the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC, not the first deportation. So it doesn't even provide any evidence for your statement.

The prophecy is about Jerusalem not Babylon.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The prophecy is about Jerjsalem

The prophecy is about Jerusalem not Babylon.

Partially true. God, through Gabriel, says that the 70 Weeks are for the Jewish people and for Jerusalem. Daniel 9:24.

Nebuchadnezzar was called the servant of God. "So now, I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant" Jer 27:6.

If you do not fully understand the word of God as given in Jeremiah, you will NEVER understand the 70 Weeks.

 

[Timtofly]

There are two segments in Daniel 9:25.

a 7 week segment
a 62 week segment

unto messiah. So how can the 69 weeks be up decades prior to the Messiah, when they conclude with the arrival of the Messiah ?

No verse states they conclude with arrival. But the arrival of Messiah was as a baby, not an Adult who descends from heaven.

 

[Douggg]

God (through Jeremiah) never says Jerusalem would be in state of ruin for 70 years. After all, Nebuchadnezzar completely destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. Cyrus gave his decree allowing the 12 tribes to return in 538 BC. That is only 48 years.

The temple remained desolate until after it was rebuilt in 520-515 BC - 70 years after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed it.

It is on my chart.

 

[Douggg]

No verse states they conclude with arrival. But the arrival of Messiah was as a baby, not an Adult who descends from heaven.

The 69 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people - the Jews, and Jerusalem.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, in John 12:12-15, riding a donkey - not by descending from heaven. He was hailed as the messiah, the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord.

Riding the donkey fulfilled a prophecy in Zechariah 9:9

John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

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Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The temple remained desolate until after it was rebuilt in 520-515 BC - 70 years after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed it.

It is on my chart.

View attachment 336354

So what? The first 7 Weeks is tied specifically to returning to and rebuilding Jerusalem. "sub" and "bana". " the going out of a word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" Dan 9:25