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Prove me wrong: Every possible starting point to the 70 Weeks Prophecy faces insurmountable problems

David Kent

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Yes, this point about the immutable law of the Medes and Persians bears repeating. In actuality , all the decrees more or less repeated Cyrus's original decree, with the addition of a few matters in each case.

However, to me, the highlighted mention in Daniel 9:25 of the street and the wall being built again, "even in troublous times" (when every man worked with a sword girded on his side for defense), points directly to the 20th year decree by Artaxerxes. Nehemiah went to great lengths to describe the rebuilding of Jerusalem's wall, even under the threat of enemies coming to attack their efforts. Jerusalem was not considered to be truly rebuilt until it was surrounded by a defensible, intact wall with gates, and the decree in Artaxerxes's 20th regnal year in 454 BC authorized that supplies be given to accomplish this (Nehemiah 2:8-9).
But that in the 20th year was only to repair the walls which was done in 52 days. The instruction in Isaiah 44 snich has alreadyfbeen quoted.and 45 was:
Isaish 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, a nd I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
 
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David Kent

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For the second segment chart... it looks like only one commandment is involved.







25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous



.



Firstly regarding g your first chart, there is no year 0. Sec1ondly the 63 weeks ended at the baptism of Jesus not the crucifixion which was in the midst of the week. That was the middle of the prophetic week as well as a literal week.



Thirdly Herod died 4BC so Jesus must have been born a few years beforeI that
Fourthly Darius and Artaxerxes were one and the same person,
 
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Timtofly

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okay, let's combined the two segements into one chart and see what we got.

It looks like a gap of some sort between 496 BC and 401 BC.

I think that gap may be due to some inter-ruptions made, and that the Jewish leaders had to seek directives from Artaxeres to continue. And that may be the 401 BC year was the beginning of some phase to continue to rebuild Jerusalem, the street, and wall.

I don't know if I personally have the where-with-all to go through Nehemiah and Ezra to explain what took place during that gap in terms of specifics. Maybe others here do.




View attachment 336295
You really need to start the end of the 434 years prior to 10 BC. Probably more like 60 to 50 BC. Simeon was waiting to die, and saw the newborn child, and gave thanks that the promise of the Holy Spirit let him die in peace. Anna was was a widow for 84 years after being married for 7 years. That means she was at least 15+91 to 20+91 years of age. She had been waiting for a maximum of at least 90 years for the birth of the Messiah. Were these two the last humans still waiting after the 434 years were over? If they were over in 50BC, then it would seem likely that all had forgotten about any Messiah. Besides the fact that Herod was in good standing with the Romans, when Jesus was born. There was no oppression yet, that started in the days of Pilate, and evidently grew worse after Pilate.

The verse states:

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks."

Until the birth of. It does not say until the death of.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,"

It does not say a minute after, nor a day after. It does not say immediately after or any amount of years after. It can be interpreted as any time after, Messiah will be cut off. Seems to me we have more OT information about the gap between the 49th and 50th year than when the time literally stopped, and the time Messiah was even born. We can safely say the work stopped as well as the countdown after 49 years. Then started back up, for another 434 years. What we cannot do is count backwards from a point prior to even the birth of Jesus, to get an exact date. We were not told how long after the 490 years were up when Simeon and Anna would have expected the Messiah. Obviously they seemed to have waited a lifetime for the birth of Jesus, yea even 40 years at the least. And the 70th week itself was given to the Messiah the Prince and the ministry of Jesus on the earth. The 70 weeks included what Jesus Himself would do, both as Messiah and Prince. The 70th week was never defined nor implied to be a specific 7 year time period.

Seems the 70th week would start where the 69th week left off, decades prior to the birth of Jesus, not at the birth, but at the first act of obedience to God, the baptism of Jesus. Then the next 3.5 years were the earthly ministry, and then Messiah was cut off. Time would not start counting again until Jesus returns as Prince, even future from this very post. The first 30 years of Jesus' life was not part of either the 69 weeks nor the 70th week. The first 69 weeks ended decades before Jesus was born, the coming to earth of the Messiah. But they still were not in effect the first 30 years of Jesus' life. One cannot force 30 years into 7 years much less, 3.5 years. We have only had 3.5 years of the 70th week, because that was half the 70th week as Messiah. The other half of the 70th week would be as the Prince to come. Now we don't have to wait for a child to grow up. The countdown would start immediately upon the Second Coming, and then be over now in less than 3.5 years. Because this 3.5 years is the final harvest, the time of Jacob's trouble, the GT which is shortened, lest all humanity end up dead.
 
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Douggg

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@David Kent
you wrote...

Firstly regarding g your first chart, there is no year 0. Sec1ondly the 63 weeks ended at the baptism of Jesus not the crucifixion which was in the midst of the week. That was the middle of the prophetic week as well as a literal week.

David, the "0" is not itself a year. The "0" is a point like on a number line in math to represent the demarcation point between negative and positive numbers.

-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

BC years to left - 0 - AD years to the right....... that is what the chart showed. I took the zero off, and just showed the demarcation line in post #47 chart.
Thirdly Herod died 4BC so Jesus must have been born a few years beforeI that

Jesus's birth began the AD era. The Herod you are referring to dying in 4BC is Herod the Great. The Herod of Jesus's time is a different Herod, and he died after he ordered the head of John the Baptist.
 
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Douggg

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"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks."

Until the birth of. It does not say until the death of.
No, it does not say until the birth of, nor until the death of, in that verse.

"Unto messiah" messiah was fulfilled in John 12:12-15. 4 days later, he was crucified.

The weeks are weeks of years - so we are dealing in years. So the messiah arrived to complete the seven weeks and three score and two weeks - of years (verse 25).

4 days later, after the threecore and two weeks were up (verse 26), the messiah was crucified.

So backtracking from Jesus's death, we get the beginning of the 62 weeks (434 years) period. To get that into BC labeling of what year - we have to take into account the 33 years of Jesus's life. Which is what the chart shows.
 
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Aaron112

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I welcome all views as to the possible start of the 70 weeks (preterist, futurist, dispensational, etc.) If someone can convince me of the correct decree (and tolerate me playing devil's advocate), I would greatly appreciate it. Though I myself am a futurist with dispensational leanings, I am interested in what ANYONE has to say regarding the starting point!
Don't be anxious about this , don't worry about this.
I don't believe you can find the answer by seeking it here.

For what it is worth, if anything, I never worried about this, and do not worry today about this, but did find the answer you are seeking that is accurate and in line with all Scripture, with no contradictions,
but it was not to me so important to record it (ten or more years ago)..... and
I don't find it important enough to spend much if any time looking for it again, except perhaps, if Yahweh Permits, casually, and up to Him if I find it/ He Reveals it again...
 
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Douggg

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okay, this is what I have concluded.

two separate blocks of time.

inter-rupted by the troublous times between the Samaritans and the Judeans who were at odds with each other - for approximating 87 years, the gap.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In that 87 year gap of troublous times, the street(s) of Jerusalem and wall of the city were rebuilt. Once rebuilt, then 434 years to the messiah arriving in Jerusalem... to 4 days later die on the cross.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem in John 12:12-15, hailed as the messiah. 4 days later he was crucified.



70 wks breakdown 7.jpg
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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But that in the 20th year was only to repair the walls which was done in 52 days. The instruction in Isaiah 44 snich has alreadyfbeen quoted.and 45 was:
Isaish 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, a nd I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Where does it say it was only for the walls. Nehemiah's visitors say the entire city was not built up.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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I will attempt a process to determine the questions and let you suggest the answers. By making developing a chart.

The starting point of the process is when Jesus was crucified, The 62 wks is the first segment to deal with.


Jesus was crucified at the conclusion of the 62 weeks being over. So 62x7 = 434 years earlier or prior to a command was given.

Next step to put a BC year on it. If Jesus was crucified at 33 years, then 434- 33 years = a command was given 401 BC or prior to.


Here's the chart of the first segment - the 434 years.

The questions are... what takes place during the 434 year segment? Is the beginning of those activities begin on 401 BC ? Or was the command given on 401 BC? Or perhaps earlier, and the 434 years is the length of the activities ? Or something else, I haven't thought of ?


View attachment 336291
The text only says 'after" the 62 weeks then messiah will be cut off. The start and end periods are not tied to this in any way.
 
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Douggg

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EclipseEventSigns

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Take a look at my post #50
Unfortunately not historically accurate. Jerusalem took a LOT longer than 49 years to be built. The walls, temple and city had multiple times it was destroyed and built back up over many centuries - all through out 62 Weeks of years. The first 7 Weeks of years started when God Himself commanded that the city would be rebuilt and the exiles returned. "Sub" and "bana" - the very words used in the 70 weeks prophecy. The very words which God used in His command in Jeremiah. Exactly as Gabriel told Daniel to look for. The start of the 49 years. The end of the 49 years was the coming of the messiah, Cyrus. Cyrus is called the messiah by God is Isaiah. It's all there. Almost no one has recognized this. It's all explained in my detailed videos of exactly how the 70 Weeks prophecy SHOULD be PROPERLY interpreted.
 
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Douggg

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Unfortunately not historically accurate. Jerusalem took a LOT longer than 49 years to be built.
The gap is for 87 years. It is during that gap that the streets and wall were rebuilt.
The end of the 49 years was the coming of the messiah,
The text does not say that.

Cyrus was an anointed. But the kings and priests appointed to do God's assignments were all called anointed's.

"the" messiah, however, is the one special anointed, appointed by God to be the King of Israel descended from King David.
 
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Douggg

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It's all explained in my detailed videos of exactly how the 70 Weeks prophecy SHOULD be PROPERLY interpreted.
Do you have the 70th week beginning by the Mt. Sinai covenant being confirmed for the 7 years as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, by the Antichrist - perceived messiah by the Jews, anointed as the King of Israel by the false prophet ?
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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The gap is for 87 years. It is during that gap that the streets and wall were rebuilt.

The text does not say that.

Cyrus was an anointed. But the kings and priests appointed to do God's assignments were all called anointed's.

"the" messiah, however, is the one special anointed, appointed by God to be the King of Israel descended from King David.
Read it again. It CERTAINLY DOES. You obviously do not understand the original Hebrew text properly.
 
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Douggg

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Read it again. It CERTAINLY DOES. You obviously do not understand the original Hebrew text properly.
Make a timeline chart like I did that reflects your view.

Daniel made his prayer in Daniel 9, in the first year of Darius's rule, Daniel 9:1 - which was 538 BC. Cyrus made his decree in 537 BC.

So there couldn't have been 7 weeks of years, 49 years, between 538 BC an 537 BC. The 49 years are not unto Cyrus.

The messiah in verse 25 and verse 26 is Jesus.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 
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3 Resurrections

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Mark 1:14-15 has Christ confirming at the start of His ministry in 27 AD that the "Time is fulfilled"
Yes, that was definitely the starting year of Christ's ministry with that Mark 1:14-15 announcement, but it was not at AD 27. That announcement was given when John had just been cast into prison in AD 30. "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled..."

Counting backward from AD 30 the 483 years, the starting year of the 70-week prophecy would have been 454 BC - the decree given in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes I's reign in Nehemiah 2, (which included a co-regency period beginning in 474 BC with his father Xerxes).
 
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David Kent

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@David Kent
you wrote...



David, the "0" is not itself a year. The "0" is a point like on a number line in math to represent the demarcation point between negative and positive numbers.

-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

BC years to left - 0 - AD years to the right....... that is what the chart showed. I took the zero off, and just showed the demarcation line in post #47 chart.


Jesus's birth began the AD era. The Herod you are referring to dying in 4BC is Herod the Great. The Herod of Jesus's time is a different Herod, and he died after he ordered the head of John the Baptist.
I am referring to Herod the great who killed the babies. Jesus was born before Herod died probably about 3 years

-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
BC. AD
There is no year nought.
 
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