Prove me wrong: Every possible starting point to the 70 Weeks Prophecy faces insurmountable problems

[Warrior89]

Hello everyone, I have been researching the 70 weeks prophecy for eschatological and apologetics purposes. However, I find every possible starting point to be extremely unsatisfying. I used to take the "prophetic year" view, wherein each year is reckoned as 360 days each. But after abandoning that, I'm basically pulling my hair out to try to get a starting point which fits the text without forcing anything.

I know what I believe (for the most part) about Daniel 9:24, 9:26, and 9:27. It seems that a literal reading of the prophecy would be fairly straightforward, if it wasn't for historical difficulties associated with Daniel 9:25

So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. (Daniel 9:25 NASB2020)
​

A straightforward literal reading of this would say that the Messiah will come 483 years after "a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." There are several theories, each of which has some kind of (potentially) insurmountable difficulty.

1) Cyrus decree to rebuild the temple (538/537 BC)

Pro: Fits well with Isaiah 44:28; and Isaiah 45:13.​

Cons: Cyrus decree + 483 years does not lead to the time of Christ.​

2) Darius I decree (520 BC)

Pros: (None)​

Cons: Darius I decree reiterates Cyrus's decree, still does not reach time of Christ.​

3) Artaxerxes I Decree (7th year) (458/457 BC)

Pros: Lines up almost exactly with time of Christ's baptism (26 AD). Decree also "restores" Jewish control of Jerusalem, which is consistent with how the word for "restore" is used of other cities in the Old Testament (i.e. 2 Kings 14:22). Also consistent with usage in Jeremiah 30:18 and Isaiah 1:26​

Cons: Decree has nothing to do with building Jerusalem whatsoever. This theory must resort to convoluted inferences from Ezra 4 and Nehemiah to prove that this decree in Ezra 7, somehow, authorized city building when it says nothing of the sort.​

4) Artaxerxes I Authorization to Rebuild Jerusalem (20th Year) (445/444 BC)

Pros: Relates directly to building the city of Jerusalem.​

Cons: Must use 360 day calendar, which was not used by Jews at that time. For example, Daniel 9 talks about "70 years" for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem. Are these likewise 360 day years? This seems unlikely, due to 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 and its relation to Leviticus 25:8. Years seem to be based on an agricultural cycle. Where a lunar calendar is used, adjustments are made to make them actual solar years. This view also leads to 33 A.D. crucifixion, which is slightly less popular than 30 A.D. view among scholars. Finally, Nehemiah's building project took place 140ish years or so after Babylon's attack on Jerusalem. It would be really weird for Nehemiah to mourn and weep for days over the destruction of the city that happened over 100 years ago (Nehemiah 1:1-4).​

5) Seventy weeks are symbolic

Pros: Relieves us from calculating exact dates.​

Cons: Jews before Christ did not regard this passage as symbolic. Furthermore, 70 years of Babylonian rule would also have to be symbolic, when a good case can be made that this was intended literally (see 2 Chronicles 36:20-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14). A good case can also be made that the 70 years for Babylon were fulfilled literally. This view also ignores the fact that some of these decrees come extremely close to the life of Christ when you add approximately 483 years to them.
​

6) The first three decrees start the 70 weeks.

Pros: Ezra 6:14 apparently speaks of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes' decrees as one decree.​

Cons: The book of Ezra does not explicitly relate these decrees to the building of the city, but the temple. Furthermore, it seems like special pleading if the 70 weeks prophecy is meant to have apologetic value as fulfilled prophecy. It looks nice on paper....after the fact. How could a Jew know when to start counting when really decree after decree was really just one decree? Others mention how God issued a command, which resulted in these three decrees. How do we know there were going to be three, and not four, five or six?!​

7) The seventy weeks are sabbath year land cycles.

Pros: There is good historical reason to believe that Jews before Christ interpreted the "weeks" in this way.​

Cons: Still does not get around the difficulties associated with the starting points.​

I welcome all views as to the possible start of the 70 weeks (preterist, futurist, dispensational, etc.) If someone can convince me of the correct decree (and tolerate me playing devil's advocate), I would greatly appreciate it. Though I myself am a futurist with dispensational leanings, I am interested in what ANYONE has to say regarding the starting point!

Thanks in advance.

 

[HTacianas]

Hello everyone, I have been researching the 70 weeks prophecy for eschatological and apologetics purposes. However, I find every possible starting point to be extremely unsatisfying. I used to take the "prophetic year" view, wherein each year is reckoned as 360 days each. But after abandoning that, I'm basically pulling my hair out to try to get a starting point which fits the text without forcing anything.

I know what I believe (for the most part) about Daniel 9:24, 9:26, and 9:27. It seems that a literal reading of the prophecy would be fairly straightforward, if it wasn't for historical difficulties associated with Daniel 9:25

So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. (Daniel 9:25 NASB2020)
​

A straightforward literal reading of this would say that the Messiah will come 483 years after "a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." There are several theories, each of which has some kind of (potentially) insurmountable difficulty.

1) Cyrus decree to rebuild the temple (538/537 BC)

Pro: Fits well with Isaiah 44:28; and Isaiah 45:13.​

Cons: Cyrus decree + 483 years does not lead to the time of Christ.​

2) Darius I decree (520 BC)

Pros: (None)​

Cons: Darius I decree reiterates Cyrus's decree, still does not reach time of Christ.​

3) Artaxerxes I Decree (7th year) (458/457 BC)

Pros: Lines up almost exactly with time of Christ's baptism (26 AD). Decree also "restores" Jewish control of Jerusalem, which is consistent with how the word for "restore" is used of other cities in the Old Testament (i.e. 2 Kings 14:22). Also consistent with usage in Jeremiah 30:18 and Isaiah 1:26​

Cons: Decree has nothing to do with building Jerusalem whatsoever. This theory must resort to convoluted inferences from Ezra 4 and Nehemiah to prove that this decree in Ezra 7, somehow, authorized city building when it says nothing of the sort.​

4) Artaxerxes I Authorization to Rebuild Jerusalem (20th Year) (445/444 BC)

Pros: Relates directly to building the city of Jerusalem.​

Cons: Must use 360 day calendar, which was not used by Jews at that time. For example, Daniel 9 talks about "70 years" for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem. Are these likewise 360 day years? This seems unlikely, due to 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 and its relation to Leviticus 25:8. Years seem to be based on an agricultural cycle. Where a lunar calendar is used, adjustments are made to make them actual solar years. This view also leads to 33 A.D. crucifixion, which is slightly less popular than 30 A.D. view among scholars. Finally, Nehemiah's building project took place 140ish years or so after Babylon's attack on Jerusalem. It would be really weird for Nehemiah to mourn and weep for days over the destruction of the city that happened over 100 years ago (Nehemiah 1:1-4).​

5) Seventy weeks are symbolic

Pros: Relieves us from calculating exact dates.​

Cons: Jews before Christ did not regard this passage as symbolic. Furthermore, 70 years of Babylonian rule would also have to be symbolic, when a good case can be made that this was intended literally (see 2 Chronicles 36:20-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14). A good case can also be made that the 70 years for Babylon were fulfilled literally. This view also ignores the fact that some of these decrees come extremely close to the life of Christ when you add approximately 483 years to them.
​

6) The first three decrees start the 70 weeks.

Pros: Ezra 6:14 apparently speaks of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes' decrees as one decree.​

Cons: The book of Ezra does not explicitly relate these decrees to the building of the city, but the temple. Furthermore, it seems like special pleading if the 70 weeks prophecy is meant to have apologetic value as fulfilled prophecy. It looks nice on paper....after the fact. How could a Jew know when to start counting when really decree after decree was really just one decree? Others mention how God issued a command, which resulted in these three decrees. How do we know there were going to be three, and not four, five or six?!​

7) The seventy weeks are sabbath year land cycles.

Pros: There is good historical reason to believe that Jews before Christ interpreted the "weeks" in this way.​

Cons: Still does not get around the difficulties associated with the starting points.​

I welcome all views as to the possible start of the 70 weeks (preterist, futurist, dispensational, etc.) If someone can convince me of the correct decree (and tolerate me playing devil's advocate), I would greatly appreciate it. Though I myself am a futurist with dispensational leanings, I am interested in what ANYONE has to say regarding the starting point!

Thanks in advance.

Calculate the 483 years as beginning prior to the Maccabean revolt.

 

[Christian Gedge]

3) Artaxerxes I Decree (7th year) (458/457 BC)

I believe your option #3 (the 7th year of Artaxerxes, 457BC) is the correct one. Here is my graphic timeline and I'll come back to address your 'con' reservation later.

7) The seventy weeks are sabbath year land cycles.

Pros: There is good historical reason to believe that Jews before Christ interpreted the "weeks" in this way.
Cons: Still does not get around the difficulties associated with the starting points.

Yes, Daniel's weeks are one and the same as the Sabbatical cycles. What is your difficulty with 458BC being a Sabbath and 457BC the 1st year of the next cycle?

 

[Mosheli]

You have to question the conventional dates for those kings and the conventional dates for Christ first otherwise you will risk be using their wrong dates. I mean for example how do they/you get "538" bc for Cyrus, 445 bc for Artaxerxes, 26/30/33 ad for Christ? We should only use biblical dates with only additional info from external sources like Ptolemy Canon. I'll post what info from Bible I have for you below (from my chronology paper on academia.edu ). I agree it is difficult to know what the starting point is. I think one possible key is the first 7 weeks or 49 years. They might match between Cyrus and Darius, or Darius and Artaxerxes. Checkout Zechariah 1:1-12. Another theory I had was that the 70 weeks might be linked with Halley's Comet (76 yrs), but I am not sure about that.

Solomon to Zedekiah:
Jehoiakim 3rd/4th/5th = Nebuchdnezzar 1st/2nd (2 Ki 24, Jer 25, 36, 45, Dan 1-2). *
Jehoiakim 11 (incl 3 yrs) - Nebuchadnezzar 7/8 (2 Ki 23, 2 Chron 36, MT, Lxx, FJ, TA, SO).
Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Joacim (8/18 yo) 3 months / 1 yr - Nebuchadnezzar II 7/8 (2 Ki 24, 2 Chron 36, 1 Esdr 1:44-5). *
Zedekiah 21 yo began/0/1 - Nebuchadnezzar II 7/8 (2 Ki 24, 2 Chron 36).
Zedekiah 4, Nebuchadnezzar 12
Jehoiachin 5 - Ezekiel 30 yo (Ezek 1).
Jehioachin 6th, 7th, 9th (Ezekiel).
Zedekiah 9 (2 Ki 25, Jer 39, 52). *
Jehoiachin 10th (Ezekiel)
Zedekiah 10 - Nebuchadnezzar 18 (Jer 32). *
Jehoiachin 11th (Ezekiel)
Zedekiah 11 - Nebuchadnezzar 19 (2 Ki 24-25, 2 Chron 36, Jer 1, 52, MT, Lxx, FJ, TA, SO).
Jehoicahin 12th (Ezekiel 33).

Exile/Captivity to Return/Rebuilding:
Jehoicahin 12th city struck (Ezekiel 33).
Gedeliah 2/7 months - Nebuchadnezzar (2 Ki 25, Jer 41)?
Nebuchadnezzar 23 (Jer 52). *
Nebuchadnezzar II 43 (FJ, Ptolemy).
Jehoiachin 25th yr = 14th yr after city struck (Ezek 40:1).
Jehoiachin 26 yrs (Gertoux)?
Jehoiachin 27th (Ezekiel)?
Jehoiachin 30th yr (Ezekiel 1)?
Jehoiachin 37 - Evilmerodach began/1 (2 Ki 25, Jer 52).
Evilmerodach 2 (Ptolemy).
30th yr aft ruin of city (2 Esdr 3:1-29, 9:44, 10:45).
Belshazar 1 (Dan 7).
Belshazar 3 (Dan 8).
Cyrus 1 decree (2 Chron 36, Ezra 1, 6, Dan 1, FJ, NBP). *
Cyrus 1st yr (2 Chr 36:22, Ez 1:1, 5:13; 6:3; Dan 1:21, 1 Esdr 2:1, 6:17-24).
Cyrus 2 (NBP).
Zerubbabel & Jeshua 2nd yr (Ez 3:8, 1 Esdr 5:56, 5:73).
Cyrus 3 (Dan 10).
Cyrus 9 (Ptolemy).
Cyrus ca 30 yrs.
Cambyses 8 (Ptolemy) or 7 or 6 (Manetho/JA) or 6 (FJ) or 3 (Manetho/EC).
Bardiya/Gaumata/Smerdis 7 months.
Magi 1 yr (Josephus).
Darius 62 yo (Dan 5).
Darius 1 (Dan 9, 11).
Cambyses 9 (Josephus) = Darius 2nd (Haggai).
Darius 2nd yr (4:24, Hag 1-2, Zech 1:1, 1 Esdr 2:30, 5:6, 6:1, Oxford).
Darius 4 (Zech 7).
Cyrus 46 = Darius 6 (Ezra 6, NBP, 1 Esdr 7:5). *
Darius 26 (NBP). *
Darius 6 + 26 yrs = 32 (NBP).
Darius 36 (Ptolemy, Manetho).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 3 (Esth 1).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 7 (Esth 2).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 12 (Esth 3).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 20/21 (Ptolemy, Manetho).
Artabanus 7 months.
Artaxerxes 2nd yr (Esth 11:2).
Artaxerxes 7th yr Ezra goes to Jerusalem (Ezra 7:7, 1 Esdr 8:6). *
Artaxerxes I 20 decree (Neh 1-2, 5) + 12 yrs (Neh 5) = 32 (Neh 5, 13).
Artaxerxes 30th yr (13:6).

Exile/Captivity to Return/Rebuilding:
Josiah 13 to Jehoiakim 4 = 23 yrs (Jer 25).
Nebuchadnezzar 7 yrs (Jer 52, Dan 4). *
Nebuchadnezzar to Cyrus (( + 4 =) 7 + =) 7 decades / 70 yrs (Rice).
Captivity 4 (Jer 28)? 5 (Ezek 1), 6 (Ezek 8), 7 (Ezek 20), 9 (Ezek 24), 10 (Ezek 29), 11 (Ezek 26, 30-31), 12 (Ezek 26, 32-33), 25 (Ezek 40), 27 - Tyre - Nebuchadnezzar (Ezek 27, 29).
Exile/Captivity of Egypt 40 yrs (Ezek 29:11).
Exile/Captivity 50 yrs (conventional, Wiki).
Exile/capitivity to return/2nd temple: 52/70 (SOR Jewish).
Temple destroyed to rebuilding commandment 7 weeks or 49 yrs (Brumlow).
Zedekiah or Jehoiachin or Jehoiakim to end of Exile/Captivity 70 yrs (2 Chron 36, Jer 25, 29, Daniel 9, Zech 1, MT, Lxx, FJ, TA, SO).
Cyrus 1/2 to Darius 32 is 70 yrs (NBP) or 71/72 (SB from NBP).
Exile/Captivity 70 yrs / many yrs / 7 gens (2 Chr 36:21, Dan 9:2, 1:12, 7:5, 1 Esdr 1:58, 25:11, Ep Jer 6:3).
Exile to return to rebuilding city 70 yrs to Cyrus' 1st + (46 - 2 + 26 =) 70 yrs Cyrus' 2nd to Darius' 32nd (NBP).
Captivity/Hoshea to Cyrus/Return 182.5 (FJ).
Captivity/Cyrus/Zerubbabel to Alexander/Malachi 189 yrs (Oxford).

Return/Rebuilding to Christ:
Alexander 3 yrs (FJ).
Alexander 12 yrs (1 Mac 1:7).
Ptolemy & Cleopatra 4th yr (Esth 11:1).
many yrs (1 Mac 1:9).
Kingdom of Greeks 137th yr Antiochus (1 Mac 1:10).
143rd yr (1 Mac 1:20).
2 yrs (1 Mac 1:29).
145th yr (1 Mac 1:54).
146th yr (1 Mac 2:70).
1 yr (1 Mac 3:28).
147th yr (1 Mac 3:37).
1 yr (1 Mac 4:28).
148th yr (1 Mac 4:52, 2 Mac 11:21-38).
149th yr (1 Mac 6:16, 2 Mac 13:1).
3.
150th yr (1 Mac 6:20).
1 yr (1 Mac 6:49).
7th yr (1 Mac 6:53).
151st yr (1 Mac 7:1, 2 Mac 14:4).
152nd yr (1 Mac 9:3).
153rd yr (1 Mac 9:54).
2 yrs (1 Mac 9:57).
160th yr (1 Mac 10:1-21).
162nd yr (1 Mac 10:57).
165th yr (1 Mac 10:67).
167th yr (1 Mac 11:19).
169th yr (2 Mac 1:7).
170th yr (1 Mac 13:41).
1st yr Simon (1 Mac 13:42).
171st yr (1 Mac 13:51).
172nd yr (1 Mac 14:1-27).
3rd yr Simon (1 Mac 14:27).
174th yr (1 Mac 15:10).
177th yr (1 Mac 16:14).
Kingdom of Greeks 188th yr (2 Mac 1:10).
many yrs (2 Mac 1:20).
3 yrs (2 Mac 4:23).
Eleazar 90 yrs old (2 Mac 6:24).
3 yrs (2 Mac 7:27, 2 Mac 14:1).
2 yrs (2 Mac 10:3).
Alexandra 9 yrs (FJ).
Anna x yrs + 7 yrs + 84 yrs (Luke 2:36).
Herod 5 yrs (FJ).
Herod 13 + = 14 + = 17 + = 36 yrs (Josepus/Oxford).
Temple to Jesus 46 yrs (John 2:20).
Aristobulus 16 yo.
Jesus 2 yrs old (Matt 2:16).
Jesus 10/11 yo + = 12 yo + = 45/46 yo + = 48 yo + = 50 yo (Palmer).
Jesus 12 yrs old (Luke 2:42).
Jesus ca 30 yo (= Tiberius 15) (Luke 3:1, 23, Rice).
Christ to Cross 33 yrs.
Jesus: "his generation".
Jesus not yet 50 yrs old (John 8:57).
Archelaus to departure from Babylon 32 (FJ).

Return/Rebuilding to Christ:
Medo-Persia/Return 538 bc (SDA? MT?)
Persia 558-330 bc (Armstrong).
Cyrus 540 bc (Rice).
Cyrus 536 bc (Jeffrey).
Cyrus to Alexander 32 yrs (Jewish, Oxford)
Cyrus to Alexander 52 yrs (Jewish, Oxford)
Cyrus/Zerubbabel to Alexander/Malachi 189 yrs (Oxford).
Cyrus to Alexander 200 yrs (Oxford).
Cyrus to Alexander 253 (FJ).
374 yrs (+ 164, Cyrus to rededication).
Return to Christ 420 (SOR Jewish).
490 yrs 511-21 bc (Testament of Levi, Thierring).
516 or 536 return to Christ (Oxford).
Darius to Christ 899 minus 351 (Jerome).
Darius to Jesus 548 (HB).
Decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah/Christ: (7 x 7 yrs =) 49/50 yrs + (62 x 7 yrs =) 434 yrs = (69 x 7 =) 483 yrs + (1 x 7 =) 7 = (70 x 7 =) 490 (Daniel 9, MT, SDA, Brumlow).
rebuilding - Christ 62 weeks = (406 bc + ad 29) 434 yrs (JW).
return/rebuilding (455 bce + 29) = 483 yrs or 69 wks (JW).
(454 bc + ad 30 =) 69 weeks (Mithrandir).
Rebuilding to Jesus 69 weeks or (458/457 bc + ad 27) 483 yrs (SDA).
(408 bc + 33 =) 434 + 7 yrs or 62 + 1 wks (SDA).
70 weeks = ( + 70 =) 490 yrs (Brumlow).
(458/457 + 33 =) 490 yrs (Rice).
Rebuilding to Christ 70 weeks (Dan) linked with Halley's Comet (76 yrs) (SB)?
445 bc (Rice).
400 yrs 421 bc to 21 bc (Thierring)
420 yrs 421 bc to 1 bc (Thierring)
Greece/Macedon 333-330 bc (Armstrong).
Alexander to Judas Maccabeus 170 (FJ).
Alexander the Great ascends to Jesus born 309 years.
Alexander ascends to Archelaus succeeded 312 yrs.
Alexander ascends to crucifiction of Christ 341 + 1 = 342 yrs.
Ptolemaic period to Christ 300 bc.
312/311 yrs bc Grecian Seleucids to Christ.
143rd yr from 312 bc = 169 bc (Maccabees).
rededication to Christ 164 bc.
Judas Maccabeus to Alexandra 82 (FJ).
188 yrs ('Maccabees').
Alexandra to Antigonus 32 (FJ).
Attalus 133 bc (Hislop).
31 bc (Armstrong).
Anna 7 yrs married + 84 yrs widow.
Antigonus to Herod's Temple 18 (FJ).
Augustus ascends to Cyrenius 37 yrs (Josephus).
Augustus ascends to Jesus born/first 42 yrs (ASC, Exiguus) or 44 yrs.
Caesar (Augustus?) ascends to Herod dies 44 yrs.
Augustus ascends to Archelaus succeeded 45 yrs.
Augustus reigned 56 yrs lived 75 yrs.
Augustus reigned 57 yrs (14 yrs with Antony) & died 77 yo (FJ).
Herod dies 1 bc (Rice).
Herod ascends to Tiberias built 7 yrs.
Herod's Temple to Alexander & Aristobulus 12 (FJ).
Herod ascends to Temple built 15/17/18 yrs.
Herod/temple to Archelaus 12 (+ ...?) + 14 yrs (Josephus).
Herod ascends to Jesus born 32 yrs.
Herod reigned 34 yrs, lived in his city 70 yrs.
Herod 13 + = 14 + = 17 + = 36 yrs (Josephus, Oxford).
Herod's Temple building 46 yrs (John 2).
Cyrinus send & population counted to Jesus born & first year 1 year.
John conceived/born to Jesus conceived/born 6 months (Luke).
John Baptist 3 bc (Rice).
Alexander & Aristobulus to Archelaus 14 (FJ).
Jesus 15 bce, 12 bce babies slaughtered, 4 bce, 2 bce, 30/31 ce, 34 ce (Palmer based on FJ).
Jesus born 2 bc - ad 29-33 (Rice).
Christ 2 bce, 29 ce, 33 ce (JW).
Start of Jesus ministry 27 ad (SDA).
Christ 30 ad (Mithrandir).
Crucifixion 31 ad (SDA).
Jesus died 33 ad (Brumlow).
Jesus 2 yo, 4 yo, 12 yo, ca 30 yo, 1-3 yrs ministry (half week in Daniel?), “his generation", "not yet 50" (John).
Jesus might have lived anwhere from 31 to 49 yrs (SB based on Matthew, Luke, John)?
Archelaus to departure from Babylon 32 (FJ).
Archelaus 9 yrs.
Annanias/Hannan to Caiphas less than 4 years (Eusebius).
Quake in Tiberius' 1st year.
Tiberius ascends to Herod built Tiberias 7 yrs.
Tiberius ascends to Pilate sent to Jews 14 yrs.
Tiberius ascends to Jesus about thirty yo 15 yrs.
Tiberius ascends to Jesus crucified 17 + 1 = 19 yrs.

(Return to) Christ:
Herod's reign 47/44/41/40/38/37-4/1 bc or 3 ad (ASC).
Augustus Caesar 44/43/42-31/30/28/27/19 bc – 14 ad.
Cenus 30 bc (Egypt),
Census 28 bc (Suetonius, RGDA),
Census 27 bc (Gaul).
Herod's Temple built ca 21/20/19/early 17 bc.
Temple quarry date 19 bc.
Saturninus consul 19 bc, consul 11 bc, 9-7/6 bc (Tertullian), consul 4 bc, “3/2 bc”? 4-6 ad (Tertullian), 19-21 ad (Tertullian).
Jesus life sometime in the 60 years between the 19 bc and 39 ad (SB).
17 bce comet?
Star of Bethlehem candidates between 17 bc & 9 ad.
15 bc Agrippa visits Jerusalem and offers hecatomb in temple.
Cyrenius/Quirinus 14 bc (Cyrene), 12 bc (consul), 12/11-2/1 bc or 10-7 bc or 5-3 bc or 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.
Quin(c)tilius 13 bc consul, 7/6-4/3 bc Syria, Varus 6-3 bc?, 8 ad consul.
12/11/9 bc Halley’s comet 56/63 days China (Dio Cassius RH 54:29)?
Census 12 bc (Gaul),
Census of Herod 12 bc?
Cenus 12/11 bc (Dio Cassius)?
9 bc conjunction Uranus & Saturn?
eclipse 9 bc?
Cenus 9 bc (Egypt),
Cenus 9/8/7 bc (of Roman empire/citizens, Res Gestae Divi Augusti, Censorinus, Josephus 16:6:1-8, Tertullian, Ancyra, Suetonius).
7/6 bc/bce conjunction of (Mars &) Jupiter & Saturn (3 x in Pisces) 5 months?
Cenus 7 bc (Cyrene),
Cenus 7/6 bc (maybe, not recorded)?
6 bc conjunction (Sun &) Jupiter & Moon & Saturn in Aries (Ven & Mars in neighbouring constellations).
6 bc conjunction Uranus & Venus?
6 bc double occultation of Jupiter by Moon close to sun in Aries?
5 bc object/tailed-comet/nova (70 days, China/Korea)?
4 bc comet with no tail that didn’t move (Korean)?
ca 4 bc comet & conjunction several planets in Pisces (DSS)? *
4 bc lunar eclipse?
Herod Archelaus 4 bc or 3 ad – 6 ad (Matthew, ASC).
3 bc conjunction of Venus & Saturn (in eastern sky)?
Mass oath in 3 bc.
3 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus in Leo?
3 bc conjunction Venus & Mercury?
Cenus 3 bc (mass oath, Josephus 17:41-45, pater patriae 2 bc).
3-2 bc 7 conjunctions Jupiter & Regulus?
3-2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Regulus in Leo (1st of 3 x over 8 mo)?
2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus near Regulus in Leo in (West at) sunset?
2 bc Venus rose to mark sceptre in Leo?
2 bc Jupiter stationary.
1 bc Jupiter & Venus in Virgo in sw?
eclipse 1 bc?
1 ad Venus rose in Aries?
Jesus born 1 ad.
Cenus 6/7 ad (Quirinus).
Annas/Hannan 6-15.
9 ad comets (Dio Cassius).
Eclipse 10 ad?
11 ad ban on astrology,
Cenus 13/14 (RGDA, Suetonius).
Census Augustus & Tiberius 13/14 ad, 18, 21, 31.
Lysanias 14-29/42 ad?
Annas' son 16-17.
17 earthquake Anatolia.
19 Jewish astrologers expelled from Rome.
Cenus 20.
23 ad Chinese astronomer.
eclipse 26 ad?
Jesus about thirty yo & Tiberius' fifteenth year ca 27/28/29/30 ad (SB)?
eclipse 29 ad?
32 ad darkness/eclipse (Thallus/Africanus).
33 ad "eclipse/blood-moon"?
Crucifixion 33 ad (ASC).
Census 33/34 ad.

 

[BobRyan]

3) Artaxerxes I Decree (7th year) (458/457 BC)

Pros: Lines up almost exactly with time of Christ's baptism (26 AD). Decree also "restores" Jewish control of Jerusalem, which is consistent with how the word for "restore" is used of other cities in the Old Testament (i.e. 2 Kings 14:22). Also consistent with usage in Jeremiah 30:18 and Isaiah 1:26​

Cons: Decree has nothing to do with building Jerusalem whatsoever. This theory must resort to convoluted inferences from Ezra 4 and Nehemiah to prove that this decree in Ezra 7, somehow, authorized city building when it says nothing of the sort.​

well -- hindsight is 20/20 so you have the benefit of a date that works exactly to the baptism of Christ - His anointing for ministry by the Holy Spirit... "the anointed one"

First of all -- You cannot read the book of Ezra and not notice a few interesting sequence changes - if you follow the names of the kings they reference.

1. In Ezra 1:1 - 4:23 The entire timeline of his book -- from exodus out of Babylon to just before Nehemiah is covered. That is the easy part.

2. Ezra 4:24 to chapter 6:22 -- Jumps back to a point inside that timeline of Era 1:1-4:23 -- and just focuses on the reign of Darius. It just deals with a short 5 year period during the reign of Darius.

3. Ezra 7:1 - 10:44 jumps forward to the time of Artexerxes: It just deals with a tiny 1 year window in the reign of Artexerxes which is a year that is near the end.

So that is a problem that you have with Ezra without any thought at all given to finding a start point for the 70 weeks (490 year timeline) in Dan 9. The book won't change simply by not looking at Daniel 9's reference to building Jerusalem.


Secondly:
All historians agree that Jerusalem was being rebuilt in the days of Ezra and that a finishing piece was added in the time of Nehemiah.

Ezra 6 points to the temple rebuilt, and that it was a 3-part decree that includes Artexerxes.

Ezra 6
14 So the elders of the Jews built, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.


The complaint against the Jews in Ezra 4 - sent to the King by the enemies of Israel - points out that the city was nearly finished and once the walls are completed it is all over.

To King Artaxerxes from your servants, the men of the region beyond the River, and so forth:

Ezra 4:
12 Let it be known to the king that the Jews who came up from you have come to us at Jerusalem, and are building the rebellious and evil city, and are finishing its walls and repairing the foundations. 13 Let it now be known to the king that, if this city is built and the walls completed, they will not pay tax, tribute, or custom, and the king’s treasury will be diminished. 14 Now because we receive support from the palace, it was not proper for us to see the king’s dishonor; therefore we have sent and informed the king, 15 that search may be made in the book of the records of your fathers. And you will find in the book of the records and know that this city is a rebellious city, harmful to kings and provinces, and that they have incited sedition within the city in former times, for which cause this city was destroyed.

16 We inform the king that if this city is rebuilt and its walls are completed, the result will be that you will have no dominion beyond the River.

=============
The work stops and some destruction is done to the walls - which Nehemiah has repaired over a period of just 52 days. Clearly one does not build an entire city in 52 days so this was a nearly completed project that had had some damage done to it... and is now repaired and wall completed in Neh 6.

Neh 6.
15 So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days.

 

[Mosheli]

PS:
So for example the 1st 49 yrs in Daniel might be from Darius 26th to Artaxerxes 20th (Darius 9 + Ahasuerus/Xerxes 20 + Artaxerxes 20), or from Darius 36 or Ahasuerus 1/3 to Artaxerxes 30/32 (Ahasuerus 20/17 + Artaxerxes 30/32), or Cyrus 46 / Darius 6 to Ahasuerus/Xerxes 20/21 (Darius 30 + Ahasuerus 20), or Darius 1/2 to Ahasuerus 12 (Darius 36 + Ahasuerus 12), or Cyrus 3 to Ahasuerus 3 (Cyrus 6, Cambyses 3? Darius 36, Ahasuerus 3).
Or Cyrus 40-46 & Darius 1-6 might not overlap but be consecutive, in which case it might be Cyrus 1 to Darius 2/4/6 (Cyrus 46/43 + Darius 2/4/6)?
Or Artaxerxes might have been confused with Ahasuerus (both similar 2nd/3rd, 7th, 20th years).

Another problem is whether Christ is the 69th week or middle of 70th week or end of 70th week.

 

[SkyWriting]

What time will the bus be at this stop?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello everyone, I have been researching the 70 weeks prophecy for eschatological and apologetics purposes. However, I find every possible starting point to be extremely unsatisfying. I used to take the "prophetic year" view, wherein each year is reckoned as 360 days each. But after abandoning that, I'm basically pulling my hair out to try to get a starting point which fits the text without forcing anything.

I know what I believe (for the most part) about Daniel 9:24, 9:26, and 9:27. It seems that a literal reading of the prophecy would be fairly straightforward, if it wasn't for historical difficulties associated with Daniel 9:25

So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. (Daniel 9:25 NASB2020)
​

A straightforward literal reading of this would say that the Messiah will come 483 years after "a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." There are several theories, each of which has some kind of (potentially) insurmountable difficulty.

1) Cyrus decree to rebuild the temple (538/537 BC)

Pro: Fits well with Isaiah 44:28; and Isaiah 45:13.​

Cons: Cyrus decree + 483 years does not lead to the time of Christ.​

2) Darius I decree (520 BC)

Pros: (None)​

Cons: Darius I decree reiterates Cyrus's decree, still does not reach time of Christ.​

3) Artaxerxes I Decree (7th year) (458/457 BC)

Pros: Lines up almost exactly with time of Christ's baptism (26 AD). Decree also "restores" Jewish control of Jerusalem, which is consistent with how the word for "restore" is used of other cities in the Old Testament (i.e. 2 Kings 14:22). Also consistent with usage in Jeremiah 30:18 and Isaiah 1:26​

Cons: Decree has nothing to do with building Jerusalem whatsoever. This theory must resort to convoluted inferences from Ezra 4 and Nehemiah to prove that this decree in Ezra 7, somehow, authorized city building when it says nothing of the sort.​

4) Artaxerxes I Authorization to Rebuild Jerusalem (20th Year) (445/444 BC)

Pros: Relates directly to building the city of Jerusalem.​

Cons: Must use 360 day calendar, which was not used by Jews at that time. For example, Daniel 9 talks about "70 years" for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem. Are these likewise 360 day years? This seems unlikely, due to 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 and its relation to Leviticus 25:8. Years seem to be based on an agricultural cycle. Where a lunar calendar is used, adjustments are made to make them actual solar years. This view also leads to 33 A.D. crucifixion, which is slightly less popular than 30 A.D. view among scholars. Finally, Nehemiah's building project took place 140ish years or so after Babylon's attack on Jerusalem. It would be really weird for Nehemiah to mourn and weep for days over the destruction of the city that happened over 100 years ago (Nehemiah 1:1-4).​

5) Seventy weeks are symbolic

Pros: Relieves us from calculating exact dates.​

Cons: Jews before Christ did not regard this passage as symbolic. Furthermore, 70 years of Babylonian rule would also have to be symbolic, when a good case can be made that this was intended literally (see 2 Chronicles 36:20-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14). A good case can also be made that the 70 years for Babylon were fulfilled literally. This view also ignores the fact that some of these decrees come extremely close to the life of Christ when you add approximately 483 years to them.
​

6) The first three decrees start the 70 weeks.

Pros: Ezra 6:14 apparently speaks of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes' decrees as one decree.​

Cons: The book of Ezra does not explicitly relate these decrees to the building of the city, but the temple. Furthermore, it seems like special pleading if the 70 weeks prophecy is meant to have apologetic value as fulfilled prophecy. It looks nice on paper....after the fact. How could a Jew know when to start counting when really decree after decree was really just one decree? Others mention how God issued a command, which resulted in these three decrees. How do we know there were going to be three, and not four, five or six?!​

7) The seventy weeks are sabbath year land cycles.

Pros: There is good historical reason to believe that Jews before Christ interpreted the "weeks" in this way.​

Cons: Still does not get around the difficulties associated with the starting points.​

I welcome all views as to the possible start of the 70 weeks (preterist, futurist, dispensational, etc.) If someone can convince me of the correct decree (and tolerate me playing devil's advocate), I would greatly appreciate it. Though I myself am a futurist with dispensational leanings, I am interested in what ANYONE has to say regarding the starting point!

Thanks in advance.

You may be influenced by the Dispensational Futurist ideology too much so its causing that hair pulling thing to happen. If you reject the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks you will see how easily it fits into the historical account of Cyrus decree and the remnant of Israel who went back to build the second temple.
Blessings

 

[Warrior89]

Calculate the 483 years as beginning prior to the Maccabean revolt.

Thanks for your reply. How do you figure? 538 B.C. + 483 years does not lead us to the Maccabean revolt. How do you interpret this passage? Thanks!

 

[Warrior89]

I believe your option #3 (the 7th year of Artaxerxes, 457BC) is the correct one. Here is my graphic timeline and I'll come back to address your 'con' reservation later.


View attachment 315502


Yes, Daniel's weeks are one and the same as the Sabbatical cycles. What is your difficulty with 458BC being a Sabbath and 457BC the 1st year of the next cycle?

Thanks for your reply. I can go either way on the Sabbatical cycles. The Jews interpreted the passage that way before Christ. And there are many allusions to Leviticus 25-26 in Daniel 9, which may support the idea that these are sabbatical cycles. However, it does bother me that this is a theological inference, and not something we can draw out exegetically from Daniel 9.

In any case, the Sabbatical cycles only work if the starting point is valid. If I said there were 69 sabbatical cycles after the American Revolution, it would be interesting, but the starting point wouldn't be valid. I am most attracted to the 457/458 BC view. But it seems a very big issue that the decree doesn't mention city building at all.

Thanks for your help and I look forward to your response.

 

[Warrior89]

You have to question the conventional dates for those kings and the conventional dates for Christ first otherwise you will risk be using their wrong dates. I mean for example how do they/you get "538" bc for Cyrus, 445 bc for Artaxerxes, 26/30/33 ad for Christ? We should only use biblical dates with only additional info from external sources like Ptolemy Canon. I'll post what info from Bible I have for you below (from my chronology paper on academia.edu ). I agree it is difficult to know what the starting point is. I think one possible key is the first 7 weeks or 49 years. They might match between Cyrus and Darius, or Darius and Artaxerxes. Checkout Zechariah 1:1-12. Another theory I had was that the 70 weeks might be linked with Halley's Comet (76 yrs), but I am not sure about that.

Solomon to Zedekiah:
Jehoiakim 3rd/4th/5th = Nebuchdnezzar 1st/2nd (2 Ki 24, Jer 25, 36, 45, Dan 1-2). *
Jehoiakim 11 (incl 3 yrs) - Nebuchadnezzar 7/8 (2 Ki 23, 2 Chron 36, MT, Lxx, FJ, TA, SO).
Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Joacim (8/18 yo) 3 months / 1 yr - Nebuchadnezzar II 7/8 (2 Ki 24, 2 Chron 36, 1 Esdr 1:44-5). *
Zedekiah 21 yo began/0/1 - Nebuchadnezzar II 7/8 (2 Ki 24, 2 Chron 36).
Zedekiah 4, Nebuchadnezzar 12
Jehoiachin 5 - Ezekiel 30 yo (Ezek 1).
Jehioachin 6th, 7th, 9th (Ezekiel).
Zedekiah 9 (2 Ki 25, Jer 39, 52). *
Jehoiachin 10th (Ezekiel)
Zedekiah 10 - Nebuchadnezzar 18 (Jer 32). *
Jehoiachin 11th (Ezekiel)
Zedekiah 11 - Nebuchadnezzar 19 (2 Ki 24-25, 2 Chron 36, Jer 1, 52, MT, Lxx, FJ, TA, SO).
Jehoicahin 12th (Ezekiel 33).

Exile/Captivity to Return/Rebuilding:
Jehoicahin 12th city struck (Ezekiel 33).
Gedeliah 2/7 months - Nebuchadnezzar (2 Ki 25, Jer 41)?
Nebuchadnezzar 23 (Jer 52). *
Nebuchadnezzar II 43 (FJ, Ptolemy).
Jehoiachin 25th yr = 14th yr after city struck (Ezek 40:1).
Jehoiachin 26 yrs (Gertoux)?
Jehoiachin 27th (Ezekiel)?
Jehoiachin 30th yr (Ezekiel 1)?
Jehoiachin 37 - Evilmerodach began/1 (2 Ki 25, Jer 52).
Evilmerodach 2 (Ptolemy).
30th yr aft ruin of city (2 Esdr 3:1-29, 9:44, 10:45).
Belshazar 1 (Dan 7).
Belshazar 3 (Dan 8).
Cyrus 1 decree (2 Chron 36, Ezra 1, 6, Dan 1, FJ, NBP). *
Cyrus 1st yr (2 Chr 36:22, Ez 1:1, 5:13; 6:3; Dan 1:21, 1 Esdr 2:1, 6:17-24).
Cyrus 2 (NBP).
Zerubbabel & Jeshua 2nd yr (Ez 3:8, 1 Esdr 5:56, 5:73).
Cyrus 3 (Dan 10).
Cyrus 9 (Ptolemy).
Cyrus ca 30 yrs.
Cambyses 8 (Ptolemy) or 7 or 6 (Manetho/JA) or 6 (FJ) or 3 (Manetho/EC).
Bardiya/Gaumata/Smerdis 7 months.
Magi 1 yr (Josephus).
Darius 62 yo (Dan 5).
Darius 1 (Dan 9, 11).
Cambyses 9 (Josephus) = Darius 2nd (Haggai).
Darius 2nd yr (4:24, Hag 1-2, Zech 1:1, 1 Esdr 2:30, 5:6, 6:1, Oxford).
Darius 4 (Zech 7).
Cyrus 46 = Darius 6 (Ezra 6, NBP, 1 Esdr 7:5). *
Darius 26 (NBP). *
Darius 6 + 26 yrs = 32 (NBP).
Darius 36 (Ptolemy, Manetho).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 3 (Esth 1).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 7 (Esth 2).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 12 (Esth 3).
Ahasuerus/Xerxes 20/21 (Ptolemy, Manetho).
Artabanus 7 months.
Artaxerxes 2nd yr (Esth 11:2).
Artaxerxes 7th yr Ezra goes to Jerusalem (Ezra 7:7, 1 Esdr 8:6). *
Artaxerxes I 20 decree (Neh 1-2, 5) + 12 yrs (Neh 5) = 32 (Neh 5, 13).
Artaxerxes 30th yr (13:6).

Exile/Captivity to Return/Rebuilding:
Josiah 13 to Jehoiakim 4 = 23 yrs (Jer 25).
Nebuchadnezzar 7 yrs (Jer 52, Dan 4). *
Nebuchadnezzar to Cyrus (( + 4 =) 7 + =) 7 decades / 70 yrs (Rice).
Captivity 4 (Jer 28)? 5 (Ezek 1), 6 (Ezek 8), 7 (Ezek 20), 9 (Ezek 24), 10 (Ezek 29), 11 (Ezek 26, 30-31), 12 (Ezek 26, 32-33), 25 (Ezek 40), 27 - Tyre - Nebuchadnezzar (Ezek 27, 29).
Exile/Captivity of Egypt 40 yrs (Ezek 29:11).
Exile/Captivity 50 yrs (conventional, Wiki).
Exile/capitivity to return/2nd temple: 52/70 (SOR Jewish).
Temple destroyed to rebuilding commandment 7 weeks or 49 yrs (Brumlow).
Zedekiah or Jehoiachin or Jehoiakim to end of Exile/Captivity 70 yrs (2 Chron 36, Jer 25, 29, Daniel 9, Zech 1, MT, Lxx, FJ, TA, SO).
Cyrus 1/2 to Darius 32 is 70 yrs (NBP) or 71/72 (SB from NBP).
Exile/Captivity 70 yrs / many yrs / 7 gens (2 Chr 36:21, Dan 9:2, 1:12, 7:5, 1 Esdr 1:58, 25:11, Ep Jer 6:3).
Exile to return to rebuilding city 70 yrs to Cyrus' 1st + (46 - 2 + 26 =) 70 yrs Cyrus' 2nd to Darius' 32nd (NBP).
Captivity/Hoshea to Cyrus/Return 182.5 (FJ).
Captivity/Cyrus/Zerubbabel to Alexander/Malachi 189 yrs (Oxford).

Return/Rebuilding to Christ:
Alexander 3 yrs (FJ).
Alexander 12 yrs (1 Mac 1:7).
Ptolemy & Cleopatra 4th yr (Esth 11:1).
many yrs (1 Mac 1:9).
Kingdom of Greeks 137th yr Antiochus (1 Mac 1:10).
143rd yr (1 Mac 1:20).
2 yrs (1 Mac 1:29).
145th yr (1 Mac 1:54).
146th yr (1 Mac 2:70).
1 yr (1 Mac 3:28).
147th yr (1 Mac 3:37).
1 yr (1 Mac 4:28).
148th yr (1 Mac 4:52, 2 Mac 11:21-38).
149th yr (1 Mac 6:16, 2 Mac 13:1).
3.
150th yr (1 Mac 6:20).
1 yr (1 Mac 6:49).
7th yr (1 Mac 6:53).
151st yr (1 Mac 7:1, 2 Mac 14:4).
152nd yr (1 Mac 9:3).
153rd yr (1 Mac 9:54).
2 yrs (1 Mac 9:57).
160th yr (1 Mac 10:1-21).
162nd yr (1 Mac 10:57).
165th yr (1 Mac 10:67).
167th yr (1 Mac 11:19).
169th yr (2 Mac 1:7).
170th yr (1 Mac 13:41).
1st yr Simon (1 Mac 13:42).
171st yr (1 Mac 13:51).
172nd yr (1 Mac 14:1-27).
3rd yr Simon (1 Mac 14:27).
174th yr (1 Mac 15:10).
177th yr (1 Mac 16:14).
Kingdom of Greeks 188th yr (2 Mac 1:10).
many yrs (2 Mac 1:20).
3 yrs (2 Mac 4:23).
Eleazar 90 yrs old (2 Mac 6:24).
3 yrs (2 Mac 7:27, 2 Mac 14:1).
2 yrs (2 Mac 10:3).
Alexandra 9 yrs (FJ).
Anna x yrs + 7 yrs + 84 yrs (Luke 2:36).
Herod 5 yrs (FJ).
Herod 13 + = 14 + = 17 + = 36 yrs (Josepus/Oxford).
Temple to Jesus 46 yrs (John 2:20).
Aristobulus 16 yo.
Jesus 2 yrs old (Matt 2:16).
Jesus 10/11 yo + = 12 yo + = 45/46 yo + = 48 yo + = 50 yo (Palmer).
Jesus 12 yrs old (Luke 2:42).
Jesus ca 30 yo (= Tiberius 15) (Luke 3:1, 23, Rice).
Christ to Cross 33 yrs.
Jesus: "his generation".
Jesus not yet 50 yrs old (John 8:57).
Archelaus to departure from Babylon 32 (FJ).

Return/Rebuilding to Christ:
Medo-Persia/Return 538 bc (SDA? MT?)
Persia 558-330 bc (Armstrong).
Cyrus 540 bc (Rice).
Cyrus 536 bc (Jeffrey).
Cyrus to Alexander 32 yrs (Jewish, Oxford)
Cyrus to Alexander 52 yrs (Jewish, Oxford)
Cyrus/Zerubbabel to Alexander/Malachi 189 yrs (Oxford).
Cyrus to Alexander 200 yrs (Oxford).
Cyrus to Alexander 253 (FJ).
374 yrs (+ 164, Cyrus to rededication).
Return to Christ 420 (SOR Jewish).
490 yrs 511-21 bc (Testament of Levi, Thierring).
516 or 536 return to Christ (Oxford).
Darius to Christ 899 minus 351 (Jerome).
Darius to Jesus 548 (HB).
Decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah/Christ: (7 x 7 yrs =) 49/50 yrs + (62 x 7 yrs =) 434 yrs = (69 x 7 =) 483 yrs + (1 x 7 =) 7 = (70 x 7 =) 490 (Daniel 9, MT, SDA, Brumlow).
rebuilding - Christ 62 weeks = (406 bc + ad 29) 434 yrs (JW).
return/rebuilding (455 bce + 29) = 483 yrs or 69 wks (JW).
(454 bc + ad 30 =) 69 weeks (Mithrandir).
Rebuilding to Jesus 69 weeks or (458/457 bc + ad 27) 483 yrs (SDA).
(408 bc + 33 =) 434 + 7 yrs or 62 + 1 wks (SDA).
70 weeks = ( + 70 =) 490 yrs (Brumlow).
(458/457 + 33 =) 490 yrs (Rice).
Rebuilding to Christ 70 weeks (Dan) linked with Halley's Comet (76 yrs) (SB)?
445 bc (Rice).
400 yrs 421 bc to 21 bc (Thierring)
420 yrs 421 bc to 1 bc (Thierring)
Greece/Macedon 333-330 bc (Armstrong).
Alexander to Judas Maccabeus 170 (FJ).
Alexander the Great ascends to Jesus born 309 years.
Alexander ascends to Archelaus succeeded 312 yrs.
Alexander ascends to crucifiction of Christ 341 + 1 = 342 yrs.
Ptolemaic period to Christ 300 bc.
312/311 yrs bc Grecian Seleucids to Christ.
143rd yr from 312 bc = 169 bc (Maccabees).
rededication to Christ 164 bc.
Judas Maccabeus to Alexandra 82 (FJ).
188 yrs ('Maccabees').
Alexandra to Antigonus 32 (FJ).
Attalus 133 bc (Hislop).
31 bc (Armstrong).
Anna 7 yrs married + 84 yrs widow.
Antigonus to Herod's Temple 18 (FJ).
Augustus ascends to Cyrenius 37 yrs (Josephus).
Augustus ascends to Jesus born/first 42 yrs (ASC, Exiguus) or 44 yrs.
Caesar (Augustus?) ascends to Herod dies 44 yrs.
Augustus ascends to Archelaus succeeded 45 yrs.
Augustus reigned 56 yrs lived 75 yrs.
Augustus reigned 57 yrs (14 yrs with Antony) & died 77 yo (FJ).
Herod dies 1 bc (Rice).
Herod ascends to Tiberias built 7 yrs.
Herod's Temple to Alexander & Aristobulus 12 (FJ).
Herod ascends to Temple built 15/17/18 yrs.
Herod/temple to Archelaus 12 (+ ...?) + 14 yrs (Josephus).
Herod ascends to Jesus born 32 yrs.
Herod reigned 34 yrs, lived in his city 70 yrs.
Herod 13 + = 14 + = 17 + = 36 yrs (Josephus, Oxford).
Herod's Temple building 46 yrs (John 2).
Cyrinus send & population counted to Jesus born & first year 1 year.
John conceived/born to Jesus conceived/born 6 months (Luke).
John Baptist 3 bc (Rice).
Alexander & Aristobulus to Archelaus 14 (FJ).
Jesus 15 bce, 12 bce babies slaughtered, 4 bce, 2 bce, 30/31 ce, 34 ce (Palmer based on FJ).
Jesus born 2 bc - ad 29-33 (Rice).
Christ 2 bce, 29 ce, 33 ce (JW).
Start of Jesus ministry 27 ad (SDA).
Christ 30 ad (Mithrandir).
Crucifixion 31 ad (SDA).
Jesus died 33 ad (Brumlow).
Jesus 2 yo, 4 yo, 12 yo, ca 30 yo, 1-3 yrs ministry (half week in Daniel?), “his generation", "not yet 50" (John).
Jesus might have lived anwhere from 31 to 49 yrs (SB based on Matthew, Luke, John)?
Archelaus to departure from Babylon 32 (FJ).
Archelaus 9 yrs.
Annanias/Hannan to Caiphas less than 4 years (Eusebius).
Quake in Tiberius' 1st year.
Tiberius ascends to Herod built Tiberias 7 yrs.
Tiberius ascends to Pilate sent to Jews 14 yrs.
Tiberius ascends to Jesus about thirty yo 15 yrs.
Tiberius ascends to Jesus crucified 17 + 1 = 19 yrs.

(Return to) Christ:
Herod's reign 47/44/41/40/38/37-4/1 bc or 3 ad (ASC).
Augustus Caesar 44/43/42-31/30/28/27/19 bc – 14 ad.
Cenus 30 bc (Egypt),
Census 28 bc (Suetonius, RGDA),
Census 27 bc (Gaul).
Herod's Temple built ca 21/20/19/early 17 bc.
Temple quarry date 19 bc.
Saturninus consul 19 bc, consul 11 bc, 9-7/6 bc (Tertullian), consul 4 bc, “3/2 bc”? 4-6 ad (Tertullian), 19-21 ad (Tertullian).
Jesus life sometime in the 60 years between the 19 bc and 39 ad (SB).
17 bce comet?
Star of Bethlehem candidates between 17 bc & 9 ad.
15 bc Agrippa visits Jerusalem and offers hecatomb in temple.
Cyrenius/Quirinus 14 bc (Cyrene), 12 bc (consul), 12/11-2/1 bc or 10-7 bc or 5-3 bc or 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.
Quin(c)tilius 13 bc consul, 7/6-4/3 bc Syria, Varus 6-3 bc?, 8 ad consul.
12/11/9 bc Halley’s comet 56/63 days China (Dio Cassius RH 54:29)?
Census 12 bc (Gaul),
Census of Herod 12 bc?
Cenus 12/11 bc (Dio Cassius)?
9 bc conjunction Uranus & Saturn?
eclipse 9 bc?
Cenus 9 bc (Egypt),
Cenus 9/8/7 bc (of Roman empire/citizens, Res Gestae Divi Augusti, Censorinus, Josephus 16:6:1-8, Tertullian, Ancyra, Suetonius).
7/6 bc/bce conjunction of (Mars &) Jupiter & Saturn (3 x in Pisces) 5 months?
Cenus 7 bc (Cyrene),
Cenus 7/6 bc (maybe, not recorded)?
6 bc conjunction (Sun &) Jupiter & Moon & Saturn in Aries (Ven & Mars in neighbouring constellations).
6 bc conjunction Uranus & Venus?
6 bc double occultation of Jupiter by Moon close to sun in Aries?
5 bc object/tailed-comet/nova (70 days, China/Korea)?
4 bc comet with no tail that didn’t move (Korean)?
ca 4 bc comet & conjunction several planets in Pisces (DSS)? *
4 bc lunar eclipse?
Herod Archelaus 4 bc or 3 ad – 6 ad (Matthew, ASC).
3 bc conjunction of Venus & Saturn (in eastern sky)?
Mass oath in 3 bc.
3 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus in Leo?
3 bc conjunction Venus & Mercury?
Cenus 3 bc (mass oath, Josephus 17:41-45, pater patriae 2 bc).
3-2 bc 7 conjunctions Jupiter & Regulus?
3-2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Regulus in Leo (1st of 3 x over 8 mo)?
2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus near Regulus in Leo in (West at) sunset?
2 bc Venus rose to mark sceptre in Leo?
2 bc Jupiter stationary.
1 bc Jupiter & Venus in Virgo in sw?
eclipse 1 bc?
1 ad Venus rose in Aries?
Jesus born 1 ad.
Cenus 6/7 ad (Quirinus).
Annas/Hannan 6-15.
9 ad comets (Dio Cassius).
Eclipse 10 ad?
11 ad ban on astrology,
Cenus 13/14 (RGDA, Suetonius).
Census Augustus & Tiberius 13/14 ad, 18, 21, 31.
Lysanias 14-29/42 ad?
Annas' son 16-17.
17 earthquake Anatolia.
19 Jewish astrologers expelled from Rome.
Cenus 20.
23 ad Chinese astronomer.
eclipse 26 ad?
Jesus about thirty yo & Tiberius' fifteenth year ca 27/28/29/30 ad (SB)?
eclipse 29 ad?
32 ad darkness/eclipse (Thallus/Africanus).
33 ad "eclipse/blood-moon"?
Crucifixion 33 ad (ASC).
Census 33/34 ad.

Thanks for your reply. I have heard some different theories that the dates used by historians are actually incorrect, due to apparent difficulties with Ptolemy's Canon. For example, I heard it proposed in one journal article (by a Jehovah's Witness) that implied the 20th year of Artaxerxes is 455 B.C. not 444 B.C. However, this would seem to be a situation where a certain interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy is causing us to doubt secular history. As difficult as the 70 Weeks prophecy is, I don't think that it's tenable, especially from an apologetics standpoint, to abandon secular dates when they have no interest in the 70 weeks prophecy one way or another.

Thanks again. What are your thoughts?

 

[Warrior89]

well -- hindsight is 20/20 so you have the benefit of a date that works exactly to the baptism of Christ - His anointing for ministry by the Holy Spirit... "the anointed one"

First of all -- You cannot read the book of Ezra and not notice a few interesting sequence changes - if you follow the names of the kings they reference.

1. In Ezra 1:1 - 4:23 The entire timeline of his book -- from exodus out of Babylon to just before Nehemiah is covered. That is the easy part.

2. Ezra 4:24 to chapter 6:22 -- Jumps back to a point inside that timeline of Era 1:1-4:23 -- and just focuses on the reign of Darius. It just deals with a short 5 year period during the reign of Darius.

3. Ezra 7:1 - 10:44 jumps forward to the time of Artexerxes: It just deals with a tiny 1 year window in the reign of Artexerxes which is a year that is near the end.

So that is a problem that you have with Ezra without any thought at all given to finding a start point for the 70 weeks (490 year timeline) in Dan 9. The book won't change simply by not looking at Daniel 9's reference to building Jerusalem.

Thanks for your reply. I do agree hindsight is very helpful in this regard. But its not particularly useful from an apologetics standpoint. If I told someone about the four decrees and didn't tell them what year each of them was, I doubt they would correctly guess the start of the 70 weeks.

I also fully acknowledge that the book of Ezra is not chronological. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you are saying that the events of Ezra 4 (under Artaxerxes) happen as a result of the decree in Ezra 7? Is your chronology widely accepted? Or is it one of many scholarly opinions on Ezra?

Secondly:
All historians agree that Jerusalem was being rebuilt in the days of Ezra and that a finishing piece was added in the time of Nehemiah.

Ezra 6 points to the temple rebuilt, and that it was a 3-part decree that includes Artexerxes.

Ezra 6
14 So the elders of the Jews built, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.


The complaint against the Jews in Ezra 4 - sent to the King by the enemies of Israel - points out that the city was nearly finished and once the walls are completed it is all over.

To King Artaxerxes from your servants, the men of the region beyond the River, and so forth:

Ezra 4:
12 Let it be known to the king that the Jews who came up from you have come to us at Jerusalem, and are building the rebellious and evil city, and are finishing its walls and repairing the foundations. 13 Let it now be known to the king that, if this city is built and the walls completed, they will not pay tax, tribute, or custom, and the king’s treasury will be diminished. 14 Now because we receive support from the palace, it was not proper for us to see the king’s dishonor; therefore we have sent and informed the king, 15 that search may be made in the book of the records of your fathers. And you will find in the book of the records and know that this city is a rebellious city, harmful to kings and provinces, and that they have incited sedition within the city in former times, for which cause this city was destroyed.

16 We inform the king that if this city is rebuilt and its walls are completed, the result will be that you will have no dominion beyond the River.

=============
The work stops and some destruction is done to the walls - which Nehemiah has repaired over a period of just 52 days. Clearly one does not build an entire city in 52 days so this was a nearly completed project that had had some damage done to it... and is now repaired and wall completed in Neh 6.

Neh 6.
15 So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days.

When you say all historians agree that the wall was rebuilt under Ezra, do you mind naming a few? Which historians emphasize this? Is this one of many scholarly opinions? Do you have a link to a journal article which quotes these? If true, this would be very interesting.

I am familiar with the accusations that the city and wall were being rebuilt in Ezra 4. However, there arise a number of questions.

1) Did this rebuilding have any legal basis (per Daniel 9:25 and what it implies)?

2) Was this rebuilding under Ezra, or is that controversial?

3) Is the report of the rebuilding even true, or a false accusation?

I agree with you about the Nehemiah rebuilding taking only 52 days. The book consistently talks about repairs being made to the walls. That, and Nehemiah's extreme shock and sadness at the state of the city seem to imply the walls had been built more recently.

Thanks very much again for your reply. I appreciate you humoring me as I play devil's advocate. I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[Warrior89]

You may be influenced by the Dispensational Futurist ideology too much so its causing that hair pulling thing to happen. If you reject the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks you will see how easily it fits into the historical account of Cyrus decree and the remnant of Israel who went back to build the second temple.
Blessings

Thanks for your reply. For the purposes of this thread, I'm committed to a Messianic interpretation of the 70 weeks. And from that standpoint, I don't see how Cyrus's decree can fit, since his decree + 483 years leads us to a time well before the time of Christ. Maybe you can help me unpack how my futurist dispensational leanings are influencing my interpretation of the start of the 70 weeks? Thanks!

 

[Warrior89]

What time will the bus be at this stop?

Greetings. What do you mean by this expression?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Thanks for your reply. For the purposes of this thread, I'm committed to a Messianic interpretation of the 70 weeks. And from that standpoint, I don't see how Cyrus's decree can fit, since his decree + 483 years leads us to a time well before the time of Christ. Maybe you can help me unpack how my futurist dispensational leanings are influencing my interpretation of the start of the 70 weeks? Thanks!

OK. Then tell me the exact date Jesus Christ of Nazareth was born. IF you know that date then we can do the math.

 

[Christian Gedge]

... there are many allusions to Leviticus 25-26 in Daniel 9, which may support the idea that these are sabbatical cycles. However, it does bother me that this is a theological inference, and not something we can draw out exegetically from Daniel 9.

The 'weeks' were revealed to Daniel in context with his study of Jeremiah's seventy years. (ch 9:2) You will have noticed that 70 sabbaths are produced by 490 years. So, its more than an inference.

In any case, the Sabbatical cycles only work if the starting point is valid.

There are quite a few historical cases of Sabbath years which can be pinpointed accurately through the Judges, Kings and Inter-testament eras. From these we may extrapolate the Sabbatical timeline from Moses to Christ.

One such Sabbath year is 458/7 BC. The first day of the following cycle was 26 March 457 BC, as mentioned in Ezra 7:9, so the first of Daniel's weeks ended 451 BC. Pull out a calculator and start adding 'sevens.' You will pick up the lot.

 

[3 Resurrections]

4) Artaxerxes I Authorization to Rebuild Jerusalem (20th Year) (445/444 BC)

Pros: Relates directly to building the city of Jerusalem.
Cons: Must use 360 day calendar, which was not used by Jews at that time. For example, Daniel 9 talks about "70 years" for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem. Are these likewise 360 day years? This seems unlikely, due to 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 and its relation to Leviticus 25:8. Years seem to be based on an agricultural cycle. Where a lunar calendar is used, adjustments are made to make them actual solar years. This view also leads to 33 A.D. crucifixion, which is slightly less popular than 30 A.D. view among scholars. Finally, Nehemiah's building project took place 140ish years or so after Babylon's attack on Jerusalem. It would be really weird for Nehemiah to mourn and weep for days over the destruction of the city that happened over 100 years ago (Nehemiah 1:1-4).

This is the correct decree (in the 20th year of Artaxerxes I's reign, but the wrong year assigned to that decree (it was not given in 445/444 BC, but in 454 BC, since Artaxerxes I shared a co-regency with his father Xerxes beginning in 474 BC. Count forward 20 years, and you arrive at 454 BC.)

Ezra 6
14 So the elders of the Jews built, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

BobRyan is correct that scripture includes Artaxerxes I within the decreed commandments given for this 70-week prophecy. This would narrow the 70-week prophecy down to at least one of the two Artaxerxes I's decrees.

Thanks for your reply. I have heard some different theories that the dates used by historians are actually incorrect, due to apparent difficulties with Ptolemy's Canon. For example, I heard it proposed in one journal article (by a Jehovah's Witness) that implied the 20th year of Artaxerxes is 455 B.C. not 444 B.C.

You are correct that Ptolemy's Canon leads to an incorrect date for the 4th decree of Artaxerxes I, which was actually given in 454 BC, 20 years after Artaxerxes I's co-regency with his father began in 474 BC. Ussher's "Annals of the World" mentions this difficulty with Ptolemy's Canon. Ussher's editors write about the archaeological evidence for Ussher's 454 BC date that has emerged since Ussher wrote his "Annals of the World", proving that Ussher was indeed correct to posit this 454 BC date for the 20th year of Artaxerxes I's reign.

Thanks for your reply. For the purposes of this thread, I'm committed to a Messianic interpretation of the 70 weeks.

Absolutely. This 70-week prophecy was critical in proving Christ's divinity. If Christ was manifested to the people at the very year Daniel prophesied for Messiah the Prince to come, then Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. If He was not manifested at that very year, He would have been a false prophet, and we need not believe a single word He said. It's that important to get the dates for this 70-week prophecy correct. It is well worth the effort of tearing your hair out to get it nailed down precisely.

My understanding of this intact 70 weeks prophecy is...

454 BC - the beginning date for the 70 weeks of years with the decree to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem in Artaxerxes I's 20th regnal year , including the final restoration of the wall and the street "in troublous times". (This 20 years included Artaxerxes I's co-regency with his father Xerxes that began in 474 BC).

30 AD - the year of Christ's first miracle in Cana when He "manifested forth His glory: and his disciples believed on him" (John 2:11). This AD 30 year is the fulfillment of Mark 1:15 when John was thrown in prison and Christ came into Galilee, saying "The time is fulfilled" (kairos - a specific appointed time - namely, Daniel's Messiah the Prince's coming being manifested to His people), "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." This year AD 30 was the year of Christ's first Passover attendance during His ministry years. Forty-six years prior to this AD 30 year (John 2:20), Herod had begun the temple renovations (in 17 BC). Christ Jesus the "messenger of the covenant" began confirming that covenant for one "week" of seven years with the lost sheep of the house of Israel to whom He was sent.

33 AD - Christ is "cut off" out of the land of the living by His crucifixion in the midst of the last 70th week of years.

37 AD - The gospel's evangelistic emphasis switched over to the Gentile nations, led by the converted Paul. Paul received his commission to go to the Gentiles while in a trance in Jerusalem's temple this year (Acts 22:17-21). From then on, Paul was known as "the Apostle to the Gentiles". The gospel had gone "to the Jews first", (of necessity, in order to fulfill Daniel's last 70th week of confirming the covenant with many of Daniel's people), but also to the Gentile nations, since the majority of the Jews rejected Jesus as the fulfillment of Daniel's Messiah the Prince prophecy.

 

[claninja]

Hello everyone, I have been researching the 70 weeks prophecy for eschatological and apologetics purposes. However, I find every possible starting point to be extremely unsatisfying. I used to take the "prophetic year" view, wherein each year is reckoned as 360 days each. But after abandoning that, I'm basically pulling my hair out to try to get a starting point which fits the text without forcing anything.

I know what I believe (for the most part) about Daniel 9:24, 9:26, and 9:27. It seems that a literal reading of the prophecy would be fairly straightforward, if it wasn't for historical difficulties associated with Daniel 9:25

So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. (Daniel 9:25 NASB2020)
​

A straightforward literal reading of this would say that the Messiah will come 483 years after "a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." There are several theories, each of which has some kind of (potentially) insurmountable difficulty.

1) Cyrus decree to rebuild the temple (538/537 BC)

Pro: Fits well with Isaiah 44:28; and Isaiah 45:13.​

Cons: Cyrus decree + 483 years does not lead to the time of Christ.​

2) Darius I decree (520 BC)

Pros: (None)​

Cons: Darius I decree reiterates Cyrus's decree, still does not reach time of Christ.​

3) Artaxerxes I Decree (7th year) (458/457 BC)

Pros: Lines up almost exactly with time of Christ's baptism (26 AD). Decree also "restores" Jewish control of Jerusalem, which is consistent with how the word for "restore" is used of other cities in the Old Testament (i.e. 2 Kings 14:22). Also consistent with usage in Jeremiah 30:18 and Isaiah 1:26​

Cons: Decree has nothing to do with building Jerusalem whatsoever. This theory must resort to convoluted inferences from Ezra 4 and Nehemiah to prove that this decree in Ezra 7, somehow, authorized city building when it says nothing of the sort.​

4) Artaxerxes I Authorization to Rebuild Jerusalem (20th Year) (445/444 BC)

Pros: Relates directly to building the city of Jerusalem.​

Cons: Must use 360 day calendar, which was not used by Jews at that time. For example, Daniel 9 talks about "70 years" for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem. Are these likewise 360 day years? This seems unlikely, due to 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 and its relation to Leviticus 25:8. Years seem to be based on an agricultural cycle. Where a lunar calendar is used, adjustments are made to make them actual solar years. This view also leads to 33 A.D. crucifixion, which is slightly less popular than 30 A.D. view among scholars. Finally, Nehemiah's building project took place 140ish years or so after Babylon's attack on Jerusalem. It would be really weird for Nehemiah to mourn and weep for days over the destruction of the city that happened over 100 years ago (Nehemiah 1:1-4).​

5) Seventy weeks are symbolic

Pros: Relieves us from calculating exact dates.​

Cons: Jews before Christ did not regard this passage as symbolic. Furthermore, 70 years of Babylonian rule would also have to be symbolic, when a good case can be made that this was intended literally (see 2 Chronicles 36:20-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14). A good case can also be made that the 70 years for Babylon were fulfilled literally. This view also ignores the fact that some of these decrees come extremely close to the life of Christ when you add approximately 483 years to them.
​

6) The first three decrees start the 70 weeks.

Pros: Ezra 6:14 apparently speaks of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes' decrees as one decree.​

Cons: The book of Ezra does not explicitly relate these decrees to the building of the city, but the temple. Furthermore, it seems like special pleading if the 70 weeks prophecy is meant to have apologetic value as fulfilled prophecy. It looks nice on paper....after the fact. How could a Jew know when to start counting when really decree after decree was really just one decree? Others mention how God issued a command, which resulted in these three decrees. How do we know there were going to be three, and not four, five or six?!​

7) The seventy weeks are sabbath year land cycles.

Pros: There is good historical reason to believe that Jews before Christ interpreted the "weeks" in this way.​

Cons: Still does not get around the difficulties associated with the starting points.​

I welcome all views as to the possible start of the 70 weeks (preterist, futurist, dispensational, etc.) If someone can convince me of the correct decree (and tolerate me playing devil's advocate), I would greatly appreciate it. Though I myself am a futurist with dispensational leanings, I am interested in what ANYONE has to say regarding the starting point!

Thanks in advance.

I believe point 1 is the correct one.

i suggest checking out the book “romance of biblical chronology”, specifically the portion of the book that deals with the Persian era, and the discrepancy between the amount of Persian kings recorded by the Bible vs secular history. Essentially, the book argues for a shorter duration of the Persian kingdom than what secular history argues, since the Persian era of that time was very vague with their histories, thus, the 483 does fit from Cyrus to Christ.

 

[Warrior89]

OK. Then tell me the exact date Jesus Christ of Nazareth was born. IF you know that date then we can do the math.

I heard it was somewhere between 6-4 BC. Is that the number you go with?

 

[Warrior89]

The 'weeks' were revealed to Daniel in context with his study of Jeremiah's seventy years. (ch 9:2) You will have noticed that 70 sabbaths are produced by 490 years. So, its more than an inference.



There are quite a few historical cases of Sabbath years which can be pinpointed accurately through the Judges, Kings and Inter-testament eras. From these we may extrapolate the Sabbatical timeline from Moses to Christ.

One such Sabbath year is 458/7 BC. The first day of the following cycle was 26 March 457 BC, as mentioned in Ezra 7:9, so the first of Daniel's weeks ended 451 BC. Pull out a calculator and start adding 'sevens.' You will pick up the lot.

I guess my biggest concern is that this decree doesn't relate to the building of the city. Now that I think of it, I suppose no decree explicitly mentions the initial authorization to rebuild the city, since the authorization to Nehemiah related to rebuilding the city after fairly recent damage, not damage done in 538 B.C.

How do you link the first decree of Artaxerxes with the rebuilding of Jerusalem? Thanks!