4Jesus said:CONTINUTATION OF POST #48
Daniel 9:27 you will notice that someone confirms a covenant for "one week."
parousia70 said:Where exactly did Paul say he was speaking of a PHYSICAL resurrection?
I can't find "physical resurrection" anywhere in the Bible. [/b]"
Justme said:Hi 4jesus,
YOU SAID:Sorry Justme, I forgot to ask, when did Rome make a 7 year deal or covenant with the Jews during the 70A.D. period?
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I never said they did, I don't recall the bible saying they did, I recall you saying something like that.
Justme
parousia70 said:Sorry, I just had to jump in.
4Jesus, the fact that scripture states that messiah was "cut off" AFTER 69 weeks indicates to me He was cut off in the 70th week because that is the week that comes "after" the 69th.
Since we know the 69th week ended with the Baptism of Jesus, we can also know that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week. 3.5 years after his baptism, causing the effectivity of the blood animal sacrifice to "cease".
Philip said:Umm, are you sure about that?
Justme said:Hi 4jesus,
I'll deal with some points here and then let's get organized.
One of your arguments is as follows:
Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection.
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The premise you lead with is incorrect, the spirit can die.
Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
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What we are getting to in our main conversation will shed light on whether it is possible for there to be a physical resurrection. By physical resurrection I mean a come up out of the grave and walk around earth again kind of physical resurrection.
Justme
4Jesus said:The spirits of the wicked will die after the judgement not at the moment of death. 1Cor.15:12-20 does say there is a physical resurrection.
Justme said:Hi 4jesus,
Here are the verses you mention:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Let's mark those as verses that you say tells of a physical out of the grave walk around earth again resurrection.
If this is referring to a physical get up out of the grave walk around earth again kind a resurrection we will find verses that agree with that. If we find verses that contradict that, your interpretation is false.
Let's finally get to my verses now.
Is Daniel one of the people who will sleep in the dirt and be resurrected at or sometime very near ther great tribulation? Daniel 12:1-3 and 12.
Justme
Justme said:Hi 4jesus,
SOrry, I only dealt with one of your points in that last post.
YOU SAID:
The spirits of the wicked will die after the judgement not at the moment of death.
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I can't recall any scripture at the moment that pins down the timing of the second death of the wicked. I'll look around a bit.
Justme
4Jesus said:I've pointed this out to you before. Rev.20:5 are those that are unbelievers. The first resurrection is a resurrection to life (John 5:28, 29), the second resurrection is a resurrection to death. This happens after satan is bound for a thousand years (Rev.20.2). Which brings up the point that, if this has happened and is not in the future, it is hard to believe that satan is bound and nations (i.e.people) are not being deceived anymore (20:3).
Justme said:Hi 4jesus,
YOU SAID:
The most that can be affirmed by 1Cor.15 is that God will reinvest the souls of men with bodies,
I don't follow, where in 1 Cor 15 does it state that? Maybe I misunderstand. Are you saying the spirit comes back into the body in the grave at some point?
YOU SAID:
As to the sense in which the resurrection body will be identical with the body laid aside in death, that is a matter on which the Scriptures come to no definite conclusion.
Except it does say one is eternal, one is incorruptable, one is immortal, one is heavenly. I agree that the bible does not say directly what the raised 'body' will look like.
Justme
Paul makes it clear that if one denies the resurrection of believers, Jesus Christ would still be in the grave [v.13]. Read Luke 24:36-43, Jesus is not a spirit and yet He is not physical flesh. And as Acts 1:9,10 clearly states Jesus went to heaven in this form.But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (made alive) except it die: 1Cor.35,36
Justme said:HI 4jesus,
Dan 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
When does this happen?
Daniel 12
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.
At the time of the great tribulation. Before , after, during...doesn't say.
This is talking about those who sleep in the dirt and Daniel is going to be one of them.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
As for you(Daniel) carry on til the end.(Daniel's death) Daniel will rest(sleep in the dirt)and the at the end of the days (sometime around the great tribulation) Daniel will be raised to eternal life.
A side note here is that this is one more time the bible tells us the great tribulation is at the end of the days.
You mentioned John 5:28,29 and you said it was the resurrection to life.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
What it says is ALL who are in their graves will hear His voice. Where does it say only the good will come out? It says they will ALL come out and will be raised to eternal life or be condemned.
This agrees with this in Matthew 12:
37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
This is what happens to everybody. The judgement. I don't see a time difference for the good and evil. The judgement comes after you die Hebrews 9:27 and at that judgement you are aquitted or condemned.
Matthew 12:
36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
So further on John 5:28,29 we see that ALL those that hear will 'come out.' That's all it says about it, there is no clear meaning given for 'come out', we have to determine that meaning from other verses.
John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
So at the time Jesus made these statements we know the dead were HEARING the voice. It doesn't say they had 'come out', only that they hear.
What comments do you have to this point?
Justme
John 5:25 could be describing Matt.27:50-54 which says many not all of the saints that were in their graves and slept arose.Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept rose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earth, quake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. (Matt.27:50-54)
Justme said:HI 4jesus,
John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
So at the time Jesus made these statements we know the dead were HEARING the voice. It doesn't say they had 'come out', only that they hear.
What comments do you have to this point?
Justme
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