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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Catchup, if you want to discuss 2Peter that is fine. But do you understand the points of my last post...

    1.) Preterists believe they know the "truth" in the same way that all Christians believe they know they truth.

    2.) Preterists do not claim exclusivity because we are not a denomination or a seperate religion.

    3) We do not teach that all Church's are wrong (especially because preterists are found in all kinds of Churches). We accept futurists as brothers and sisters in Christ.

    4) Our beliefs are not based on fear or worldly desires, but on how we interpret the Word of God.

    If you do not recognize these principles and understand where we are coming from then we have nothing more to discuss here, because it shows that your only desire is to distort what I believe. Hopefully that is not the case. I'm not demanding that you believe what I do, but I am demanding that you represent my beliefs correctly.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Good point TScott!

    The problem Catchup, and other hyper-futurists have is that they claim Christ is present, in the manner of being "presently absent" or "absently present"

    They claim He is with them today, while in the same breath claim He is far away, but coming "soon".

    Of course when they say soon, they mean literally soon, but when they read when the Apostles said soon, it means thousands of years.
    Given the choice on who to believe, I'm on the side of the apostles every time!

    The hyper-futurist, oxymoronic theology will not stand the test of time that historic preterism has. Every single generation of date setters and futurists since the apostles, who believed they were the last days generation, have come and gone without any fanfare.
    Todays generation of futurists will be no different, and the Preterist Church will continue it's victorious march through the ages, unimpeaded.

    YBIC,
    P70
    PS, Catchup, I just knew you couldn't stay away! :clap:
    Welcome to my thread!
    feel free to post here anytime!
    (providing your posts do not break forum rules)
     
  3. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    parousia70: Thank You for the welcome!

    Your Friend in Christ
    :) LOVE
     
  4. Craigybabe

    Craigybabe Junior vice trainee secretary

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    Hi and Good ,morning to you all. For me another working day has now finished so I'm all ears to listen to what you my friends here are saying.

    Something that is continually sticking with me, the major flaw in what my preterists friends are preaching, is that surely the creation of the new earth and heaven would have been recorded by man if it had already happened. Wouldn't there be some sort of evidence that Jesus has already come again? How and why would the coming of all these events have been kept secret: the rapture;the harvest of souls; the 4 riders of the apocalypse; the anti-christ etc. Why is there still suffering if this is meant to be the "new Earth"? Why is there still evil in the world? I know this has all been answered in the 'End times' section. Its just that Something on such a large scale, something that would affect all of us wouldn't have been able to have been hidden.

    God Bless

    Craig
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Craigy,
    Boy do you remind me of me when I first discovered preterism!

    I asked those same questions!

    As far as How the Church could have missed it, I for one am far more comfortable believing that the generations since the apostles did not understand the nature of the 2nd coming so as to "miss it", than I am in believing that the Apostles were wrong about it's timing.

    While true that the Bulk of the Church through the ages has looked "forward" to the second coming, there have been notable, individual exceptions throughout Church History who saw it as past, and were never considered to be outside of Orthodoxy.

    To avoid a long diatribe, I'll post what I feel are links relevant to your questions. Please check them out for I believe you may begin to find the answers you seek.

    After you have done that, and you still have questions, I'll be glad to share my limited understanding personally with you.

    YBIC,
    P70

    Links:
    Heaven and Earth Passed Away

    Biblical meaning of Heaven and Earth

    Why be preterist?
     
  6. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Craig,

    I believe you're understanding Revelation based on your own presuppositions. It's sorta like as if someone were saying, "My dad kicked the bucket". If I were a foreigner who came to America and never understood such linguistic nuances like idioms, I'd take this literally thinking that someone's dad kicked the bucket. But most Americans would know the expression means, "My dad died". The same is true with prophetic langauge.

    I think these comments may help you understand more about what I'm referring to =)

    -Sun, Moon, Stars-- (Matthew 24:29)
    Compare to Jehovah's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), or Jehovah's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Or Jehovah's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), or His coming to Egypt in 572BC (Eze 32:7-11) . The sun, moon, and stars are not literal, but speak of the downfall of rulers and authorities. Isaiah 13:10-17 uses this exact language to speak of the conflict of the Medes and the Babylonians. Rev 12:1-4 and in Rev 8:10-9:2 use the casting down of stars to speak of rulers. Isaiah 14:12 calls Nebuchadnezzar the Morning Star cast down to earth. In Rev 1:20, the stars are rulers/messengers of the Churches. The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai in 2:7 and 2:21-23 to speak of political overturnings when the great Persian empire was all aflame with rebellion and conflict and the Jews were expecting this to work in their favor as they were being restored to Palestine and rebuilding the Temple.

    Such "de-creation of heaven and earth" language is used in Psalm 18:5-16 to describe the downfall of Saul's Kingdom. In Isaiah 13:6-19 we see the destruction of heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire. Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Ninevah (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11.

    By the way, we don't in the end of the physical cosmos. Here's why:

    Gen. 8:21-22; Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 145:13; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Isa. 9:7; Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    I don't remember if I mentioned this but preterist look at the end times as the end of Biblical Judaism. We believe that the age to come is the eternal new covenant age. So we look at Revelation depicting change in covenants, and we believe that the New Testament authors were living the transition period (aka the last day) between the Old and New Covenant.

    You might notice that Heb 8:8-13 speaks of the old covenant which didn't pass away at the time of Hebrews having been written (Heb 8:13 tells us clearly). We believe that this directly correlates with Gal 4:21-31.

    Also, I forget to mention that I believe the New Jerusalem depicted in Revelation 21:2 has a lot to do with Gal 4:26 and Heb 12:22. :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     

  8. Hi Craig. The real point here is it is not that these things have been hidden from us. The real point here is we just did not understand what these things mant. For example two thousand years from now our history, culture, politics and language will have changed dramatically. Imagine someone then having to learn the ancient language of "modern English" to read one of our daily newspapers!

    If they saw one of our political cartoons with a "donkey" and an "elephant" dressed in weird uniforms and acting strange, what would they think? How would they go about understanding the cartoon? Not only would they have to study the language, but also our culture, history, politics and economic situation as well.

    The same principle applies to the Bible. If we have always been taught that the Bible was written "only to us" and never been taught to understand, applie, and carefully study, the language, history, culture and politics of the First Century we fail to grasp the essential understanding of the Bible.

    Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with the apocalyptic, and figurative language of the Bible. And so many people like to say "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". Without carefully stuuding the language, history, culture and politics of the First Century. They seem to be saying there is no such thing as figurative or spiritual language. This is sad because a LOT of the Bible is symbolic language.

    The problem is we are not used to dealing with such symbolical language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, new heaven and earth without thinking literally. To the Jew this was not new language. When the rulers of the nation which God destroyed passed away it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky's, etc.

    To help you understand how the Jews communicated in terms of symbolical language last first study (Genesis 37:9). This is the way language is used in the Old Testament. It was adopted for like use in the New Testament.

    This kind of language in relation to Israel began in the Bible in (Genesis 37:9). When Joseph told his brothers his dream He said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." His father understood the meaning of that dream and asked. "What is the dream that thou haste dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? (vs.10). To what was Joseph relating his dream - to the sun and the moon and the stars? No to his father and mother and brethren.

    In studying apocalyptic language of the New Testament, we must have a good understanding of the Old Testament-the sourse for much of the minology used in the New Testament.

    Joseph in a dream saw "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" abeying him (Genesis 37:9), and there we see the same kind of typology used, as we know this referred to the brothers of Joseph finally having to yield to Joseph when he became a rular in Egypt.. The heavenly elements represent people in OLD Testament labguage.

    In order to understand the Bible (we must read the Bible in this Jewish mindset). Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the (Medes in 539BC)., and how God used this celestial and universal language to describe the judgment that would come upon her: "Bohold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And i will punish the world for their evil (Isaiah 13:9-11).

    This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1 This language is symboical and represented in celestial language somthing that would take place upon a people. Again, note the prophecy of Ezekiel against Egypt: "And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heave, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. "All the bright lights of heaven will make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 32:7-8) This applied to egypt, as mentioned in vss. 2, 12-16.

    Most preterist have learned that in understanding many expressions in the New Testament eschatology, it is asolutely necessary to go back to the Old Testament and see how the same expressions were used there. In that way, one lets the Bible interpret itself. This same language was used in response to Israel, judgment of God (Matthew 24:29) This applied to Israel as mentioned in verse 34,35, 36, of Matthew 23.

    The "heaven and earth" are simply the Jewish religious/political authorities and the land of Palestine and the people who lived there. They were the 'ungodly men' because they jejected and killed the Christ. And thus is was that heaven and earth that would removed forever.

    The "Heavens and the Earth" Represent Israel.
    In Isaiah 51:15-16 God said: "But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of host is his name. "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered there in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and ay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

    God is not talking here about something that happened at creation's date 3,000 years before! He is talking about His people Israel. The heavens and the earth" represent Israel in this language. The Hebrew people understood this kind of language. It was their style. We need to see things in context, and the context of the Jewish writters.

    In Haggai 2:6-7 (a Messianic prophecy) it said, "Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land: And I will shake all nations........This passage applies to the change of things which were brought about by the passing away of the old and the introduction of the new. The coming of Christ made possible this great change.

    The change would involve the passing away of the old Juaistic system with all its ceremonies, rites, rituals, sacrifices, etc. As the writer of Hebrew said, as he "borrowed" words from Haggai 2:6: "The destruction of Jersualem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world.

    When Moses said, "Listen O heavens, and I will speak; Hear O earth, the words of my mouth' (Deut 28), he did not mean the clouds and the rocks were to hear, but the leaders and the people were to hear! "Heavens" well portrays that which is "over us" and is the government or those in authority. When Moses and the priest spoke to the people they spoke in the authority of God.

    "Earth" was used as a reference to the common people. A good example of this is where Jesus Himself said, "You are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13)

    Even today we describe honest, hard working people as "salt of the earth." So the passing away of heaven and earth was the passing away of a culture its government and its people and their life stile (Matthew 5:13) When that culture or covenant that was known to the Jews as the heaven and earth passed away so did the Law.

    Their "heaven and earth" is gone! We now live under the new "heaven and earth" or covenant wherein dwells righteousess. If you believe, the "heaven and earth" that Jesus was talking about was the literal, heaven and earth then you are sill under (ALL THE LAWS) of the old covenants. Because Jesus Himself said: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, (not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished (Matt.5:18)

    We no the old heaven and earth disappeared because we are not under the old covenant of the law but a new covenant of grace. Aman. So the passing away of heaven and earth was the passing away of a culture its government and its people taken into slavery into other lands, forever scattered. :clap:
     
  9. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    But in Matthew 24:22 it says "And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." And what about all the signs in Revelation concerning all the men that are killed, and the 200 million man army? What about the multitude of marine, animal, and plant life that is almost if not fully wiped out? What about the water turning to blood? I'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, cause we're brothers, as you've said. I'm just curious. God bless you all
     
  10. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Craig :wave:

    Good questions you're asking. There is more to our existance than the "literal" or "temporal". The evidence for what you ask is not that different than "what's the evidence for you being 'born again'" -it might well be literal, but is it temporal? This is what the bible says about the New Creation of Rev 22:

    "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 1Cor 5:17

    Sometimes when we look for "certain" evidence, we 'miss the woods for the trees.'

    Blessings mate. :)

    davo
     
  11. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    And one other thing, about the saints in white robes under the altar of God...if these prophecies were fulfilled, that's like saying there will be no more martyrs. And of the two witnesses? It says everyone in the world will see the dead bodies in the street, and that was not possible until at least the 1900's. What about the plagues where men on earth were scorched with great heat?
     
  12. Man O man brother Jason is God working or not. We preterist seem to have one mind and one body in our thinking. Glory be to God. :clap:
     
  13. Hi Psalm6. It really does not matter what "you say our what we say" What matter is what the Bible says. Therefore can you please show us from the Bible were it says "everyone in the world will see the dead bodies in the street"? What matters is what God has to says.
     
  14. Hi again Psalm6. No one here thinks you are trying to discredit our beliefs. Asking questions is how we all learn and we did not come to the preterist view without asking many questions believe me brother when I say that to you.

    The water turning to blood is to be understood in the same nature as the moon turning into blood in the Old Testament. It is therefore not to be taken literaly. Because the moon never turning into blood in the Old Testament.

    And as far as the multitude of all marine, animal plant life being wiped out. I believe we should let God also answer that question. Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

    What decree did God make concerning the establishment of the heaven and the earth that will never pass away.? Genesis 8:21! God said that he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word.


    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) These verses simply saying that God keeps his promises.
     
  15. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    It's in Rev. 11:1-15(key verses being 7-10.) Also, what about 9: 13-21. And then there's the mark of the beast as well. Then there's chapter 16. And my key chapter is 21. It describes Jerusalem in great detail.
     
  16. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    I have lost interest in this debate. Their was a time when it consumed me. I was upset to the point of anger, because of “Christians” speaking
    un-truths. At first my attack, although rightful,was hitting below the belt. Trading insults was a part of my strategy. Until at one point in this debate…I prayed for help from the Spirit.

    Please read my posts on this thread…and pray for guidance. :angel:

    But this morning I awoke with my thoughts trained at Israel. I am going to begin my research and understanding of this region. There are prophets… that are yet to come. I do not know if this will be before or after the rapture.

    Stay firm in your beliefs. Do not let anyone steal away your place in the NEW WORLD.

    Revelations 10:6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! 7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

    Revelations 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

    Revelation7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
    11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.


    Your Friend in Christ
    :) LOVE
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Psalms6,

    Take a look at Isaiah 65:17-23.
    Isaiah describes what life will be like in the new heavens and earth in great detail.

    After studying that passage, come back here and post your understanding of how there will be birth, ageing, death and sinners all present in the new Heavens and earth as Isaiah explicitly states. How could all these be true if the New H&E represnet, in your view, a fleshly utopia characterized by total behavioral errorlessness in an eternal biological state?

    If we are not to be given in marraige in the new world, how is there still to be procreation going on? Sex outside of wedlock in Gods "perfect" state????

    As for Revelation 21 & 22's description of the New Jerusalem, Heres a "detail" you might have overlooked:

    Rev 22:2 "In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Ask yourself this. "If the New heaven and earth are brand new replacements for the old ones that were completely destroyed, and are error free, perfect in every way, Why do the nations "need perpetual healing"?
    This tree poses a huge stumbling block for the "replacement earth" theology.

    I would be interested in how you get around these difficulties in your view.

    Thanks in Christ,
    P70
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ya'll come back now anytime, ya hear?
    :wave:
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

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    The Church is Israel (Gal 6:15-16). You can do no better than to train your thoughts on Christ's Church (Israel).

    If you had to pick any region of the planet to get into politics you might consider China where Christ's Church is growing underground quickly but faces fierce opposition. God blesses those who bless the Church (Israel)!
     
  20. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    GW: Thanks for the suggestions. But I do not let people guide my life as you are prone to do.

    Parosia70: Do not for a moment think that I do not realize the danger you pose. But in the realm of all things...You are small potatoes.

    Your Friend in Christ
    :) LOVE
     
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