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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Hi GW,

    Actually some areas of China are really opening up. In some provinces the government doesn't care if people worship outside on a mountain or something. So that's good to hear =) But at the same time I wonder if China's Christians will fall into complacency with more freedom, assuming that China becomes completely free for the gospel to go around the nation

    -Jason
     
  2. And he cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Revelation 13:16 Many have wondered over the years about Rev. 13:-17; 14:9-11. etc. regarding what is usually called "the mark of the beast."

    This two is Jewish apocalyptic thought which originated from the Old Testament. Sad to say Christians today are also unfamiliar with this stile of Jewish language also.

    Therefore, when they approach the book of Revelation, they do so with a literalistic, 20th century "interpretations" instead of a first century Jewish understanding.

    The first thing one must understand about Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols-symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah.

    When a "mark" is spoken of, it should bring to mind a previous reference to a mark, found in another place in the Old Testament. The "mark" received upon the right hand or the forehead, is a Jewish topological picture (as is virtually all of Revelation), not to a "physical" mark on a persons body, but to the fact that in Jewish thought form (which is where John was coming from).

    But how did one, receive "the mark" and what did it mean in Jewish thought? It means that those who "took the mark" willingly, on their "right hand" (the Jewish picture of action and power), did whatever they did under the control of Rome, and they acted in accordance with that ungodly religious system (Pantheism).

    The "mark" on the foreheads, was referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the "minds and thoughts" of those who willingly followed this mind set. A perfect picture of this action in see in John. Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold you King!" But they cried out, Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priest answered, "We have no king (but Caesar!") John 19:14-15.

    This is the historical setting of how the un-believing Jews received the "mark of the beast."

    Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priest and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, What shall we do' For this Man works many signs. "If we let Him alone like this everyone will believe in Him, (And the Romans will come and take away both place and nation).

    This is the historical setting of how the un-believing received the "mark in their foreheads."

    Those who "took the mark" in the foreheads, were referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the minds and thoughts of those who willingly followed this mind set. All the Jews understood this topological picture.

    Since John was a Jew he used numerous Jewish allusions out of the Old Testament in his book of Revelation. John writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of express." The same language of John's Revelation when a "mark" is spoken of, should bring to mind a previous reference to a "mark" found in Ezekiel 9:3-6.

    In that context, Jerusalem was also about to be besieged and destroyed (by the Babylonians). The Lord commanded an angel to place "a mark on the foreheads" of those that lamented the wickedness of the city. This angel is described as having "a writer's inkhorn at his side" (9:3), with which he was to mark the righteous. It is clear from the context that this was not to be taken literally, as if an angel needed to carry a pen around with him and an inkhorn in which to dip it.

    This was a figurative (symbolic) way of showing that there was a specific class of people within the doomed city that were being set apart for preservation (9:6). In Revelation, a similar "mark" is placed on those whom God wishes to preserve (7:3, 14:1). A "mark" is also received by those loyal to the beast, one which sets them apart for destruction (14:9-11). The mark is an emblem of ownership (John 19:14-15.)

    We must allow Scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. Whether or not it or its fulfillment conforms to the unbiblical traditions we have been taught of what it should be like, is irrelevant! Most people today jump into the book of Revelation with the brazen assumption that it speaks of our times or a time yet future.

    This ignores the book's clear statements regarding the time of its fulfillment. To the readers of the first century, not the 20th, it was written that these were "things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev.11), and that the time for its fulfillment was "at hand" (Rev.1:3). And just in case they missed the point, it was reiterated at the end of the book that these were "things which must shortly be done" (Rev. 22:60.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,395
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Good to see you back so soon! you must be rested and ready!

    You are right, I am small potatoes, with faith like a mustard seed. ;)

    You are also correct that I pose an incredible danger.
    I pose danger to all who would come against Gods Church, for in Christ Jesus I am granted the power to subdue kingdoms with the everlasting gospel!

    Thanks for such High praise!
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. Keep me as the apple of Your eye; Hide me under the shadow of Your wings, (Psalms 17:8)

    How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.(Psalms 36:7

    To many people who read the Bible like to say. "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". So does that kind of "literal thinking" mean the above two verse are saying that God is a chicken?

    When literalism rules the day we are the losers in our understanding of biblical truth. :eek:
     
  5. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Bear with me, because in responding to Isaiah, and Rev 22: 2, I must include a lot of Scripture. I'm using the KJV by the way. First, we'll start with Isaiah. In 65:17, it speaks of the new heaven and earth. When it speaks of sinners being accursed, they will be in hell, not in the new heaven and earth, and therefore, would be pretty accursed. Because it also says there will be no more pain or tears, and if there was sin in the new heaven and earth, there would be sin! The sinners are burning in hell. I don't see in Isaiah where children will be had, but during the thousand year reign, they will be born. The people alive at the rapture will instantly recieve glorified bodies, so those can't have children. We will rule with Christ. Those on the earth,(Worshippers left after the seals, trumpets, woes) during the thousand year reign won't sin because there is no devil in the earth, he's bound. It says in the four Gospels that there will be no marriage AFTER the resurrection has occured. There will be sin after the devil is loosed. When the devil is loosed, sin enters the world, and causes another rebellion against God. And that takes me into Rev. In 21:1, it says there will be no more sea, so that can't be now. But that's not my point. In chapter 20 it talks about satan being bound for a thousand years "that he should deceive the nations no more, TILL the thousand years be fulfilled: and AFTER that he must be loosed a little season." So, towards the end of the thousand year reign, satan will be released, and once again, man will be tempted. Verse 5 in chapter 20 also supports my point. Verse 6 tells that the saved before the rapture will rule with Christ during the thousand years. Verse 8-9 is where satan is loosed, sin enters the world, and the sinners rebel against God. But he just vanquishes them with fire, and the devil is torn from the earth again, thrown into the lake of fire, and has his power stripped. Then is when all the sinners(remember, there won't be any in the new HE according to Isaiah) are cast into the lake of fire, due to the great white throne judgement, which is for all the people who didn't accept Jesus. When all the sinners are gone, and the devil as well...the new H.E. are created, because according to Isaiah and Revelations 21:4 there will be no tears. No sin, no sinners = no pain, no tears = new heaven, new earth. After this, the new heaven and earth are created. In which there is NO sin! There IS sin now, so we can't be living in the new heaven and earth. The thousand year reign will occur before the new heaven and earth. Another key thing is that it says that during the reign, the saved before the rapture, and those that died during the tribulation that were saved, will be preists to the people on the old earth, so that they will keep strong in the will of God. We won't need preists when EVERYONE dwells with God. As for the Tree of life, it says that it will be when there is no night, and no more curses (verse 5 and 3 respectively.) So I believe it is there for us all to heal us all for all the pain and hurt we suffered previously. God wouldn't let Adam have it, because he sinned at the Tree of Good and Evil. God says in Genesis 3: 22 that if Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would have lived forever. Maybe this tree was a metaphor for Jesus, or maybe God allows us to eat of it when we are saved. Most likely, it is in the new heaven and earth to symbolize that we will live forever. It is one of our rewards for following God. I say to you, you have defend your beliefs well, and I respect you for that. Also, you're not declaring loudly that your beliefs are right...I don't mean to either. But I have great respect for all the preterists posting so far, and thank you for being civil. We're all brothers and sisters, and I pray that God blesses us all.
     
  6. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    And another thing, some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally, others aren't. But no one knows FOR SURE
     
  7. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    And another thing, some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally, others aren't. But no one knows FOR SURE which are which, so there will always be differences in opinion.
     
  8. Hi Psalm I see you are trying to understand the preterist view so for now "I believe it is best to sit this one out" and let one person at this time respond to all your questions. Some times when we are trying to grasp what a person is saying we need time, to think on one thing at a time. I would just like to say brother that I respect you also for being civil.

    May God bless you as you seek to see His face.
     
  9. Psalm6 I would just like to say this one last thing. Your above statement is un-true. The Jews in the days of Jesus know for sure the differences between the literal verse and the spiritial verse. Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the (Medes in 539BC)., and how God used this celestial and universal language to describe the judgment that would come upon her: "Bohold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And i will punish the world for their evil (Isaiah 13:9-11).

    This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. To the Jew this was not new language. When the rulers of the nation which God destroyed passed away it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky's, etc.

    The problem is we are not used to dealing with such symbolical language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, etc. without thinking literally. To the Jew this was not new language. If we are REALLY going to understand their language we will have to seriously and carefully study the language, history, and Jewish culture of the first century.
     
  10. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Jesus tells me he hasn't come a second time yet. I think I'll listen to Him.
     
  11. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +40
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? How pretentious for an "unworthy one". Do you not believe the Bible is reliable testimony? These preterists do, and are taking their doctrines from that source. Now, if you think it's a faulty interpretation of the Bible, then argue from the Bible.

    Private conversations are hearsay and thus inadmissible. It's wrong to try to win over people with that. Either prove the other guys wrong, or let God deal with people - if Jesus did tell you that, it's his prerogative to let others in on that information, and not yours, unless you want inclusion to the canon.
     
  12. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Sure, sounds cool.
    If Jesus tells me I will say it. ;)

    The bible is a guide, not Jesus, which I can learn from but doesn't compare to what I learn personally from Jesus himself. I mean we all have a direct relationship with Him right?

    Ask Jesus for the answers, not the bible.

    This world we live in is complete and utterly satanistic!!!
    I refuse to believe Jesus already came and left this Earth like this!
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Jesus tells you he HAS come a second time. For he promised his own apostles to their faces, saying:

    "So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. TRULY I SAY TO YOU THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place.
    --Matt 24:33-34



    And so we know Jesus is a promise keeper. When he promised his apostles to their faces that He would return to them in their generation and that they would see it we know 100% that He meant it. Our Lord is not a false prophet. When he makes a promise he keeps it. He promised them and he could NOT have failed to keep his promise or else Jesus Christ is not divine and can err.
     
  14. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Yes he did. When he raised from the dead and waived goodbye. The physical second coming of Jesus hasn't come. God will abolish sin. Obviously, he hasn't.

    There are four generations in the bible in this manner:

    1)Pre-Noah
    2)Pre-Jesus
    3)Jesus's Time????
    4)Post Jesus (Our current)

    The term "generation" is used so many times that it could easily be taken out of context. Rightly so to prove your point.
     
  15. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    I meant that certain parts relative to us, we are unsure of.
     
  16. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

    42
    +0
    Unworthyone, I agree with you...after the second coming and the new heaven and earth, there will be no sin. That's what my other post was about.
     
  17. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    I understand what you are saying unworthyone. If you are a true Christian, the Spirit will guide you to all Truths. You will not be fooled by man and his endless words .

    When Christ appears the nations will mourn and all will
    KNOW that it is the Lord who has made his presence known!

    :bow: All the People of this Earth will KNOW in the same instant when Christ returns! :bow:

    Many will be fooled by man before this happens. We are people of beliefs and religions. We do this as an effort to get closer to God. But it will not take any Faith to know when Christ comes back.

    Sinners, Agnostics, Atheist...Everyone will know!.

    So go find yourself an Atheist today and ask him if God is here.

    Do not listen to false teachings. Wait...be patient. Pray that your Faith is kept pure. You will not need anyone to inform you when Christ truly comes back to rule. You will KNOW!

    Matthew 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
    29"Immediately after the distress of those days

    " `the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

    30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


    My prayers are for you and with you.
    Your Friend in Christ
    :) LOVE
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    If the second coming has not come as you propose then Jesus Christ is a false prophet (along with all the apostles who also taught the second coming was to happen in their lifetimes). Jesus made a very specific promise to his apostles:

    Matt 24:33-34
    "So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. TRULY I SAY TO YOU THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place.


    These are same terms he had just used in the temple mere minutes earlier:

    Matthew 23:36
    "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Catchup said:
    "All the People of this Earth will KNOW in the same instant when Christ returns!"


    GW replies:
    That's the same exact excuse Jews give for rejecting Christ's advent. Are you jewish? Christ's coming in judgment would only be perceived by those that were looking for it:

    Heb 9:28
    and UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



    Christ's coming was to be a typical Day of the Lord. The previous Day of the Lord judgments were ones where nations and kings and such were destroyed -- but only the righteous jews ever understood. So also with Christ's "Day of the Lord."
     
  20. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Dude!! I know the verses but you are making your own definition of GENERATION by just reading the bible.

    Unless you know unequivocally what Jesus meant then you shouldn't make a definition.

    Guessing is cool, but knowing is not something you can.
     
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