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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    GW: You really need to spend less time on the boards and more time reading your Bible.

    You do not seem to have a clue on God's plan.

    The first time Jesus walked on Earth it was to teach and to offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He came as a Man/God.
    He planted the first seeds of gospel that have spread around the World. He died on the cross so that our sins could be washed. He went up to God but sent to us the comforter...the Holy Spirit. That is what you are feeling. That is what is at work through all of us to bring good to this fallen world. You must understand that Jesus could not have completed this work if he had came in full glory. He would not have been crucified. He would not have been able to die for our sins.
    There would be no Salvation!
    Christianity would have been over before it began. The world would have came to an end long ago....

    I praise God, and thank him each and everyday, for the LOVE that he has shown to us all. He has allowed both the way and the time for us to have a chance for eternal life with him. But we as a people, have slept in far too long. The night is near and a New Dawn is in the horizon.

    This time Jesus will not return as an infant. He will not be the son of man. He will instead appear as the GOD that he is! There will no longer be any room for doubt! All eyes will Know when Jesus returns.

    He will come in FULLL GLORY!

    GW...It is time you stopped debating with me. I am not the author of God's plan. Take all your troubles and worries to him in prayer. Believe in God ...Trust and LOVE...that is all that is needed.

    Your Friend in Christ
    :) LOVE
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    I would, of course, argue that it is you that is lacking a clear understanding of the plan of redemption and the final state.

    Your story is wrong on so many counts that I don't know where to begin.

    The O.T. prophets imagined his suffering and display of power via a "day of the Lord" judgment would all happen in one generation (Isa 61:1-2). We know that Isaiah 61:2 came to pass at the time the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (compare Isa 61:2 to Luke 21:20-22).

    The O.T. prophets never so much as even imagined TWO advents of Messiah. And certainly not two advents separated by thousands of years. The N.T. apostles didn't either. Peter holds both the suffering and the glorious return of Messiah within their own single generation (1 Peter 1:10-20). They had no concept of TWO advents separated by thousands of years. This same SINGLE GENERATION of Messiah's ascension and return is depicted in Luke 19:11-17 (when they expected the victory to happen right then while Jesus was heading to Jerusalem).

    Next, don't you ever watch or read Jack Van Impe or Grant Jeffrey? They both teach correctly that this world will NEVER end. I heard him say it again last night on one of his shows. He cites Ecc 1:4 and many other verses like it that say the world has no end by God's design.

    Finally, Jesus indeed will not return again as a humble infant subject to suffering. At Christ's ascension he was returned back to the glory he originally had with Yahweh (John 17:5) and thus "returned in the glory of Yahweh (Matt 16:27). Yahweh's many O.T. comings and judgments were exactly as Christ's was at AD 66-70. Only Christ's coming in judgment was GREATER than Yahweh had ever before performed in human history!

    Jesus promised his return in judgment in their generation and he could not err:

    Matthew 23:36
    "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So, you too (the apostles), when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    Christ's riches to you,
    GW
     
  3. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    LOL again with the "contextual observation". Do you not agree that generation has more then 1 meaning?
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Every time the word "generation" (strong's # 1074 - genea) is ever uttered in the New Testament is means the sum total of contemporaries living at the same time.

    Now, "THIS generation" is an emphatic designation of Christ's own contemporaries living at His time. The phrase "THIS generation" is listed in the N.T. nearly 20 times. In not ONE single case does it ever refer to any generation but Christ's own. As Hank Hanegraaff agrees:

    And so it goes that Christ emphatically promised his apostles that he would return in their generation. The verse immediately before it also shows who is meant. Christ, speaking to his living, breathing apostles, promised them:

    "So, you too [the apostles], when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU [the apostles], this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    And so we see that the promise is to the apostles that THEY would see all those signs an thereby know he was at the door in their generation (which they later precisely proclaimed -- see James 5:8-9, 1 peter 4:7; 1 Jn 2:18-19, Rev 1:1,3; Rev 3:1-3; Rev 3:20).

    If Christ did not return when he promised and when they ALL unanimously believed and taught then Christianity crumbles under the weight of its founding false prophets. Praise God that they are not false prophets because Jesus DID return exactly WHEN and how he and the apostles all taught and prophesied.

    Blessings to you,
    GW
     
  5. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Ok. Believe what you will. So when was His return?
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    I will not believe anything other than that which the scriptures teach on when the return of Christ was to occur. The return was clearly when the Temple and Jerusalem was destroyed:


    Mark 13:1-5
    As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, Tell us, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE, and what will be the sign WHEN ALL THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE FULFILLED? And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you; many will come in my name saying...



    So we clearly see that the "THESE THINGS" that the apostles asked about were the things pertaining to the destruction of the enitre Mosaic-Israel Economy at the end of the Mosaic Age. The Olivet Discourse answers when the Temple was to be destroyed -- which was obligated to happen in their generation. It happened exactly as Jesus prophesied and when Jesus prophesied.
     
  7. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    So what did He do when He returned and what was the point?
     
  8. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    This is all about which passages to interpret literally.

    Preterists interpret Jesus' word genea literally, because the statements he made using that word are not apocalyptic proclamation.

    Futurists interpret phrases from the midst of an apocalyptic statement ("every eye," "no more death, tears, etc.") literally, exhibiting an extraordinary disregard for the apocalyptic genre. You can deny it all you want. There is such a genre, and these statements of Jesus are apocalyptic.

    The accusations of apostasy directed at preterists make a subtle point. If the futurists were arguing based solely on personal study and a different conclusion, the attacks would be rational, and more than likely civil. However, the futurists in this present discussion (and I myself, originally) are not arguing from evidence, but against a conclusion they dislike. You would hate to have to revamp your theology to who knows what. You have all these things in your mind that preterism, if true, would mean to your present notions of Christianity. I assure you, if you'll actually read these posts, they'll provide you with the much more hopeful and Christian worldview that you were afraid you'd forfeit if you gave up futurism. Evangelism and Christian virtue are still paramount concerns for preterists.

    If by some chance futurists are right and Jesus returns in the future, the preterists will be doing exactly what he wants all Christians to do. So if you can't buy it, at least don't deny the preterists' love of the Lord and his truth. They are brothers/sisters in Christ, and should be treated that way.
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    Good post :clap:
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    To full consummate/establish the kingdom =)

    Preterists believe that the early Christians were awaiting/hoping for salvation. (Matt 10:22, Acts 15:11, Rom. 8:24-25, Rom 5:10-11, Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 5:8, Heb 9:28, Heb 10:36-39, 1 Peter 1:5, Rev 12:10)

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics do not believe that we go to heaven until Christ's 2nd coming (that would explain many of those passages). But I "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 3) :)

    By the way, here's a relevant article:

    http://www.planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=179

    As a preterist, it's encouraging to me, though I don't know if non-preterists will like it.

    Regardless, as Didaskomenos pointed out, we're all brothers and sisters in Christ!!

    God bless! :)

    -Jason
     
  11. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    A very poignant observation. I liked what you had to say, Did.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  12. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    I do not post scripture? That is not true! The thing I do not do is twist scripture. Please explain this section of the NT. Peter was very clear on this subject. I posted it earlier but received no explanation. Full preterist ignore what they can not explain away....

    2Peter 3:1

    Dear friends,
    This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
    3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
    14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.


    AMEN!!!!!

    :) LOVE
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Catchup. I've seen this explained MANY times on this board. Peter's sermon requires a fulfillment in his own lifetime. A few quick points:

    (1) Peter said the "end of all things was AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7).

    (2) Peter says the time of the Judgment (Jn 12:31) had come upon them, and that it had started with the Church (1 Peter 4:17; 4:12).

    (3) The "scoffers" were people in Peter's own time (2 Peter 2:1 -- in fact, read all 2 Peter 2). Peter says of them that "their judgment does not linger for a long time now" (2 Peter 2:3). These endtimes scoffers had even been converts to Jesus but had gone fully back into Judaism! (2 peter 2:19-22) like a dog back to its vomit.

    (4) The "scoffers" were fellow jewish countrymen of Peter. Their scoffing was: "For since OUR FATHERS DIED (a reference to the Patriarchs) all things continue as from the beginning."

    (5) PETER and his own flock were expecting to see the destruction. They were HASTENING THE COMING (2 peter 2:12-14). Peter believed the second coming was to be in his generation (1 Peter 1:11-13)


    This destruction happened when Peter stated or else Christianity is a religion based on false teachers and prophets. If the apostles could err on so large a matter of doctrine as this then ALL their teachings cannot and should not be trusted by anyone.
     
  14. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Where is it?
     
  15. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    Verse 10 says Earth will be wiped OUT! And where is the evidence Jesus came back BESIDES the bible?
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Christian
    Peter said the land would be burnt up -- which happened at AD 70 (Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-45, 22:7; Matt 23:31-38).

    Peter said the "elements" would be burnt up. Which they were at AD 70. The elements are the "elements" of Gal 4:3,9; Col 2:8,20; Heb 5:12 -- meaning the Jewish-Mosaic Temple and System. This was to be destroyed in total (Mark 13:1-31).

    Peter knew the Covenant that Israel had with Jehovah and was simply quoting Moses. Moses promised the following when Israel was in disobedience:

    Deuteronomy 28:15, 20-23, 25
    "But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you FROM THE LAND...The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation AND WITH FIERY HEAT and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. THE HEAVEN WHICH IS OVER YOUR HEAD SHALL BE BRONZE AND THE EARTH WHICH IS UNDER YOU, IRON. The LORD shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
     
  17. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Hi unworthyone,

    Great question! Here's what Jesus said about that:

    "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)

    Hope that helps! :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Unworthyone:

    Most people are satisfied to believe the bible alone. Preterists are insistent that the bible is the final authority on all matters and all truth. Agreed?

    For those unfamiliar with what happened at 70 AD I recommend the following links:


    The Destruction of Jerusalem
    - George Peter Holford (1805)
    "Absolute and irresistible proof of the divine origin of Christianity : including a narrative of the calamities which befel the Jews, so far as they tend to verify Our Lord's predictions."


    The Great Tribulation -- FREE ONLINE READING!
    by David Chilton


    The Wars of The Jews: The History of the Destruction of Jerusalem
    - Flavius Josephus
     
  19. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    So God is within me, but I still sin, and he still hates sin? I thought God was to wipe out sin.
     
  20. unworthyone

    unworthyone Yes this is me! Like my glasses?

    +1
    So the Earth was just Jerusalem? Or was it perhaps an analogy? Hmmmm....

    I think its rather odd how its taken us 2000 years to figure it out though.

    And all this time the Jews were right there and didn't even notice!
     
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