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Preterism and Bible Prophesy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 23, 2002.

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  1. Thinker

    Thinker Senior Veteran

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    I have seen speculation now and again that the trials and tribulations refered to in Revelations were written in anticipation of the 2nd Jewish revolt (the Bar kochba revolt of AD 135). Unlike the 1st Jewish revolt, the 2nd was planned out for decades in advance, and involved the Jews allying themselves with the Parthians in a revolt against Rome. However, the Parthians themselves were invaded at about the same time the revolt began, and the 2nd Jewish revolt failed as a result.
     
  2. As our brother put it so well. Thank you all.

    Your servent :)
     
  3. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    I just thought I'd share some fascinating things I came across:

    Anyone notice the connection among all these passages?

    Isaiah 66:7-9, Hosea 13:13-14, Matthew 24:7-9, Mark 13:8, Romans 8:22, Revelation 12:2-5

    I honestly don't know if they're referring to the same thing but I think they are =)

    God bless!!

    -Jason
     
  4. Very good points brother. It should also be noted Craig, nowhere in scripture does Jesus ever says (we would not know after He returned either. In fact Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would lead his people unto (all truth).
     
  5. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    What does it matter what views we have on the Rapture or Preterism? As long as we all have a relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't think we should argue, only discuss. Hats off to everyone for keeping it cool. As long as we all know Jesus in our hearts, we'll all go to Heaven, whether by death or Rapture :D
     
  6. Hi Hoonbaba you hit the nail dead on the head. They are all within the very same context in referring to the birth of the kingdom. The male Child who the woman gives birth to in Rev. 12 who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron was the Church, as seen in Rev. 2:26 Good insites brother.
     
  7. Hi Psalm6 point well taken brother. A Bible dictionary I have hits the nail right on the head. "Believers who are living at the return of Christ will be transformed into the kingdom of God with passing through death.

    Did you also know? Nobody ever heard of a pre-tribulation rapture before 1830. In England, where the theory originated, it has all but vanished. Still in America the specter lives on, and at the local church level it persists strongly.

    Morgan Edwards was born in May 9, 1722, in Trevethin Parish, Monmoughshire, Wales about 100 miles from Bristol, England. He died in 1795, long before Margaret Macdonald was ever born, and long before J.N. Darby ever developed his pre-tribulation rapture theory. In fact, the book which by Morgan Edwards giving us his views on eschatology. Was published in 1788- ever before Emmanuel Lacunza's book was completed in manuscript from 1790 The crux of the matter is that Edwards published the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture long be before Margaret Macdonald and J.N.Darby. Edwards' first pastorate was a small church in Boston England. Seven years later he became pastor of Baptist church in Cork, England. It was here he was ordained to the ministry in 1757

    Edwards then resigned from the pastorate after 10 years, and in 1771 became an intinerant evangelist helping the churches of the Southern colonies from the Philadelphia Baptist Association. Morgan Edwards in America was "one of the most important and influential Baptist leaders during the latter part of the eighteenth century." "He is mentioned in all of the histories of Baptists in the United States." Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman's (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894).

    Morgan Edwards certainly did bring "strange things" to the Baptist people in America 1788 Edwards believed that the "lake of fire brimstone was "on the moon"! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.

    It is thought that a fifteen year old girl in Scotland by the name of Margaret Macdonald was the originator of pre-tribulation teaching in 1830. It has also believed that the lrvingites in England started publishing this teaching in 1830 after getting it from Margaret Macdonald. It has been published that she was the first ever to teach a pre-tribulation rapture. At any rate, it was in 1830, forty-two years after Morgan Edwards'book was published, in Philadelphia Pa so we know now that she was not the originator of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. Morgan Edwards was the first it ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture. Edwards' book was published in 1788 According to Edwards, the Rapture should have accursed 3 ½ years before the beginning of the Millennium in 1996. This means that the "literal rapture" should have accursed in 1993. Well it didn't!

    From what source did Morgan Edwards get his theory of the pre-tribulation rapture, or was it something that he devised in his own mind independently of others? From statements he made, he evidently felt he was teaching something new. And who was the first to cope it from Edwards in America? Its difficult to believe that the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture was not preached also from the various pulpits where Edwards ministered.

    One doesn't usually write a book to tell how its influential Baptist leader devised things in his own mind. Unfortunately it is at the church level who is last to find out.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,608
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    I can't think of truer words (that didn't come from the Bible itself that is) ;)

    Ones eschatological stance has absolutely no bearing on salvation.

    Thanks for seeing it so clearly!
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian


    DATING THE BOOK OF REVELATION: AD 66-68
    --click link
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    That's right on. Our views on endtimes does not determine our salvation.

    A couple of important issues that are at stake with the endtimes statements in the N.T., however, include the following:

    *The validity of scripture
    *The trustworthiness of the apostles
    *The deity of Jesus Christ


    These issues are related to one's view of eschatology. Theological liberals and unbelieving sceptics have for centuries known that Jesus and his Holy Apostles all taught and believed in a 1st century second coming. If Christ and the apostles were in error then Christianity has big, big problems with its claim to being the one true faith and proclamation that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father.

    God bless!
    GW
     
  11. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    We went around and around with this on the "End of Times" forum. I do not want to do this all over again. :sigh:

    The full preterist are trying so hard to find a place to root. You need to understand, that many people are preterist...that just means that some prophecies were completed. There is no danger there.

    But the Full Preterist (which these people are) is a division!

    Or maybe you have not sensed, that they are teaching you about a different Jesus? They want you to put aside everything that you have come to know... and believe instead their false teaching. The Jesus that they know, is not the God, that will one day come in full glory! The Bible warns you not to be fooled. When Christ returns everyone will know! All eyes will see him!! :clap:

    But these Full Preterist will tell you that they know better. All eyes did not see him. That this why they had to come... to tell you that their Jesus will not be back. So if you buy into their Jesus, then you also have to believe that this is the New World, and that Satan is gone. I bet you never would have guessed all of that for yourself??! :eek:

    They will tell you that all the churches, and you, yourself are wrong. They alone know the truth. But their "truth" was born of fear of the unknown. They want so desperately to hold on to this world. But you only have to read your Bible, to know that we are to let go of this world... and put our Faith and hope in Christ. :bow:

    This is not the time to let down your guard against Satan!

    Do not allow them to deceive you!

    The Full preterist can talk a good story...But in the End...Christ will come anyway. Make sure you are in the wedding party when he comes for his bride. Stay firm in your beliefs!

    :) LOVE
     
  12. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Boy Cachtup do you have a problem with truth [or the twisting of it] -not only that, the motives of your heart extremely divisive :mad: You may need to check your attitudes -"they're on the nose"! :(

    davo
     
  13. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    That is true! I do have a big problem with the twisting of the truth...I will not allow it to be preached unobstructed.



    :) LOVE
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Dear Catchup:

    Please respect preterist threads and don't "invade" them and we won't invade your threads.

    If you're going to post on preterist threads now after all your railing at the other section then you better be prepared to defend your position using the Holy Scriptures. This "I'm-right-and-their-wrong" stuff isn't going to cut it.

    The preterist view of bible prophecy is a firmly biblical view. Christ and the apostles all taught a second coming in their lifetimes and preterism is the teaching on bible prophecy that takes Jesus at His word on it. We simply believe what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught on the matter. Jesus, speaking to his first century audience, said:

    Matthew 24:34
    Verily I say UNTO YOU (his first century hearers), THIS generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled!

    Luke 21:20, 22
    And when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh....For these be the days of vengeance, THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN BE FULFILLED.



    We will not tolerate attacks that have no basis in what the scriptures teach. People are looking for what the bible teaches, not what man teaches. Preterism is what the bible teaches concerning the timing of the last days:

    Acts 2:15-17
    "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but THIS IS THAT which was spoken of through the prophet Joel: AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;


    Peter knew exactly when the last days were. So do preterists.

    Christ's blessings!
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

    1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.


    Rule No. 2 - No "Trolling"

    2) You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of the atmosphere of this forum or another group...This will also include posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. Such behaviour is grounds for immediate suspension

    Please respect the rules of this board.
     
  16. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

    +145
    Non-Denom
    US-Democrat
    Catchup says:

    I'm not a Preterist or a full Preterist, but do not understand what Catchup is waiting for. I thought Jesus was always with you.
     
  17. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Or put another way: Ketchup, how about throw your latest "end-times" novel under your arm, wonder off and go chase your "latest" antichrist -you'd be doing us all a favour. :sleep:
     
  18. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
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    Hi Catchup,

    We moved because we honored the administrator's request to come here so that you can discuss current end-time ideas on the End Time forum. We have obeyed the rules, we have moved preterist topics to this forum. So if you wanted us to stop posting preterism on your forum, then why are you down here posting on our thread?

    Only when it comes to certain parts of eschatology, not salvation or the majority of Church views. Is this such a foreign concept? Would not a futurist who held a post-mill position believe that they are "biblically correct" in their end-times view, and believe everyone else is wrong in their end-times view?

    On the other hand, you tell us that we "are wrong", and judge us as unbelievers. We don't do that with you. Isn't that a little hypocritical, since you say we tell everyone they are all wrong?

    In the same way that a Post-mill Christian thinks that all Post-Mills know the real truth concerning eschatology and everyone else is wrong in their view. No big surprise here.

    No, Catchup, we have already explained this to you, but you choose to ignore what we actually believe in favor of sensationalistic fallacies. What we believe is true is based solely on the Word of God, and we would come to the same conclusions with or without Josephus. What we hold on to is the promise that the Gospel and the Church is destined to spread out over the entire earth, like an ever widening stream of water, for the healing of the nations. It's not worldly promises we hold onto, but godly promises concerning the healing of the world. That's what we believe. Please get the facts right, my friend, before you start "warning" people about us.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  19. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    You want scripture…That is fine with me. I do not hide from the Truth! Surely it is OK for Peter to post on your thread?? :scratch:

    Here is his letter on this very subject...

    2Peter 3:1

    Dear friends,
    This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
    3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
    14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.


    AMEN!!!!!

    :) LOVE
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

    471
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    This indeed is a miracle -I agree with everything you posted after "2Peter 3:1" we must be brothers in Christ. :clap:

    davo
     
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