Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?

[Steve Petersen]

Well, regarding of the evidence I suggested, I think it's self explanatory as you watch it. I started researching this topic so that I can argue and try to convert some friends of mine. At that time, I didn't had enough background in knowing my faith comparing to what I am currently now (I don't say I know everything up and down but it's still decent). I mean, I've read stuff that I posted here, watched videos I posted and that itself made my faith even stronger than it was. I'm still not expirienced regarding this stuff, still growing in my faith and I think, even if you exclude evidence I listed, I think that there is plenty more to find. Only "debatable" issue by my opinion on evidence I listed is the testimonies, but also, regarding how much of it is available and listening to people saying it, their emotion, expressions, I'd doubt possibility that they are lying.

Much of your evidence doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Ph413]

Well let me put it this way. If we take, for an example, the historical evidence of Jesus, the question here is how reliable is the evidence. Existence of somebody who lived 2000 years ago can only be found in historical documents. If we take evidence from reliable sources I would find evidence to be true and since I started this question here I will list sources I find evidence of Jesus's existence true (source for this is website gotquestions.org):

- First, as I mentioned already, Roman historian Tacitus in his Annals
- Flavius Josephus, the most famous Jewish historian in his Antiquities. There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.”
- Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
- Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
-The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
- Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
-Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
-Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection etc.) that all mention Jesus.

And this one is the first logical evidence anyone can come up with: Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

And to make this more interesting, I would like you to point to me evidence that would disprove evidence for Christianity to be true.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Well let me put it this way. If we take, for an example, the historical evidence of Jesus, the question here is how reliable is the evidence. Existence of somebody who lived 2000 years ago can only be found in historical documents. If we take evidence from reliable sources I would find evidence to be true and since I started this question here I will list sources I find evidence of Jesus's existence true (source for this is website gotquestions.org):

- First, as I mentioned already, Roman historian Tacitus in his Annals
- Flavius Josephus, the most famous Jewish historian in his Antiquities. There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.”
- Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
- Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
-The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
- Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
-Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
-Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection etc.) that all mention Jesus.

And this one is the first logical evidence anyone can come up with: Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

And to make this more interesting, I would like you to point to me evidence that would disprove evidence for Christianity to be true.

Intensity of belief has nothing to do with truth. Many other religions have their zealots. That does not mean what they believe is true. It just means they believed it was true, intensely.

The Red Sea chariot: Bring one up and let's have a look at it. We could do some metallurgy and dendochronology to date them. Heck, maybe we could even find an inscription on it that would tell us what Pharaoh they belonged to, seeing as the Bible never identifies him for us. Somehow the proof never makes it to an examination table. This is true of so many other 'proofs' of Bible accuracy.

 

[Truthfrees]

 

[Ph413]

Excuse me, there is no blind faith here. Just look at the small amount of evidence I listed above on historical evidence of Jesus. It doesn't take blind faith to believe this, it takes normal person's reason to believe it. I find that not believing in it without saying why is just ignorrant.

Regarding that chariot stuff, that may be or may not be the real stuff but in the end it doesn't even matter xD I mean, that being true would empover evidence even more and even if it's not, with all the other proof around, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Excuse me, there is no blind faith here. Just look at the small amount of evidence I listed above on historical evidence of Jesus. It doesn't take blind faith to believe this, it takes normal person's reason to believe it. I find that not believing in it without saying why is just ignorrant.

Regarding that chariot stuff, that may be or may not be the real stuff but in the end it doesn't even matter xD I mean, that being true would empover evidence even more and even if it's not, with all the other proof around, I don't think it makes any difference.

Balls of sulfur from Sodom: So what? It's from a region that has been seismically active in the past and contains tons of chemicals. The Dead Sea used to ooze tar in the Roman period. Both sulfur and tar are flammable.

 

[Ph413]

You are making this conversation funny. Can't you say anything for proof I was typing for 10 minutes ? I mean, it's not like I can go swim and find that in person and everything regarded to this chariot you are so obsessed about is very much like the same story, I couldn't find very much counter arguments, it's all about showing it not questioning it. Show some here since you are so stuck on it, and PLEASE answer my question regarding other evidence. If you can't and are stick to this and trying to make me look uninformed, I can conclude that you are not serious about all this stuff.

 

[Steve Petersen]

You are making this conversation funny. Can't you say anything for proof I was typing for 10 minutes ? I mean, it's not like I can go swim and find that in person and everything regarded to this chariot you are so obsessed about is very much like the same story, I couldn't find very much counter arguments, it's all about showing it not questioning it. Show some here since you are so stuck on it, and PLEASE answer my question regarding other evidence. If you can't and are stick to this and trying to make me look uninformed, I can conclude that you are not serious about all this stuff.

That Jesus was a historical person is not really an issue in the scholarly community.

As for the Talmud's evidence for him, it very thin. See this page: The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

 

[owl-inc]

Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?

Do you know how to obey direct orders from our true commander and chief, Jesus Christ ?????
........................................................
Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
.........................................................

 

[Ph413]

That may be true but I personally think that finding same type of evidence from multiple sources is more of a guarantee that evidence is true than finding lot of information from just one source. Still to say, sources I listed didn't had Jesus as main character of observation. Regarding Talmud's evidence check the Sanhedrin 43a Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43

 

[Steve Petersen]

Regarding Talmud's evidence check the Sanhedrin 43a Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43

Different Yeshu. Lived 100 years before the NT era. Yeshua was a very common name at the time. It is just Joshua. Is it any wonder that it was popular during the Roman occupation?

 

[Ph413]

Guess Talmud is not the best source to try get Jesus since the source you just showed and another one I just briefly read say that it's not the same person as in the Gospels. Sincerely, I'm not into researching this topic about Talmud anymore since I don't find it that much worthy comparing to other sources. It's fine that Talmud doesn't prove it, but that doesn't exclude all other evidence.

 

[stealthsaint]

Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?



The title says it all.

I went to an atheist forum to preach about God and failed miserably. I don't know if they were closed-minded or I was just too much of an idiot to persuade someone of anything. Either way, I want to be someone who is good at debating on the side of my God.

So how would you approach such a situation? What would you tell me to convince me out of my atheism?

Let's say, for example, that I believe in evolution instead of creationism. What would you tell me? (That's just one example of many. Don't focus on it, please.)

My thoughts: First of all establish the foundation of disbelief. Ask what discussions he has had in attempt to open up possibility of a Creator. That is when we can bring our experience in to the discussion and learn as Holy Spirit leads US into utterances of truth. If we allow Holy Spirit of truth to flow seeds will be planted that others will water so God can make His reality known

 

[Steve Petersen]

Guess Talmud is not the best source to try get Jesus since the source you just showed and another one I just briefly read say that it's not the same person as in the Gospels. Sincerely, I'm not into researching this topic about Talmud anymore since I don't find it that much worthy comparing to other sources. It's fine that Talmud doesn't prove it, but that doesn't exclude all other evidence.

So far of the evidence you presented in your original post, you have now discarded the chariots and the Talmud.

 

[ldonjohn]

I've learned a long time ago this doesn't work. I've shared my story before about how I got my atheist dad to start going to church. I tried to talk to him about God, but he was never interested. But when I started going and living the Christian life, it started to change him too.

Some hearts are too hardened. You will never find the right verse to convert them. The bible even talks about laying seed on fertile ground, not ground where it gets wasted. Obviously going to an atheist forum was the wrong move because they prey on people like you.

When God reaches them, they'll start reaching out more, asking questions, etc.

That's right! I learned a lesson about debating atheists on forums like the one found on this website. I attempted to answer an atheist's question about Christianity thinking he/she was looking for the truth about the bible & about God. WOW, I discovered that the atheist wasn't interested in learning the truth about Christianity, but was really attempting to pull unsuspecting Christians like myself into a endless debate which the atheist uses to show his/her contempt for the Christian and for God.

John

 

[Steve Petersen]

That's right! I learned a lesson about debating atheists on forums like the one found on this website. I attempted to answer an atheist's question about Christianity thinking he/she was looking for the truth about the bible & about God. WOW, I discovered that the atheist wasn't interested in learning the truth about Christianity, but was really attempting to pull unsuspecting Christians like myself into a endless debate which the atheist uses to show his/her contempt for the Christian and for God.

John

Either that or you need to polish up your arguments a bit. Everything you believe about Jesus and history is based on the doctrine of biblical inerrancy and authority. Atheists do not hold these doctrines.

Additionally, the Bible speaks of things that cannot be proven empirically but must be taken on faith. How do you ever expect an atheist to accept any argument that comes from faith?

 

[Ph413]

I have 5 questions I would like atheist to answer for me (but they can't) since the answer obviously points to God:
1) Why is there something rather than nothing ?
2) Why is universe fine tuned ?
3) Where did the first life came from ?
4) Why is there objective morality ?
5) Where did consciusness come from ?

And regarding discarding evidence, only thing that is discarded is the Talmud evidence. Chariot evidence is not discarded since you didn't proved actual counter-evidence that its not true, all you have said is that "it should be examined". So its not about us trying to prove you its true, its you trying to prove us that its not.

 

[stealthsaint]

# 2 input. Important to define term atheist on the outset: for a "level teeter totter" Through out important to maintain a balance in Listen and speak. History of past failed discussions. Visuals are important. I use the eyeball as requiring divine planning. "how is it possible that all the parts of the eye for example would be suspended in creation until all parts we completely formed to complete an eyeball. Unless you REALLY BELIEVE they we created together all at once with instinctive understanding of their individual purpose for their existence. Also why a Platypus, or insects that are biologically dependent on a species of plant and that plant being dependent on the insect.

 

[ldonjohn]

Either that or you need to polish up your arguments a bit. Everything you believe about Jesus and history is based on the doctrine of biblical inerrancy and authority. Atheists do not hold these doctrines.

Additionally, the Bible speaks of things that cannot be proven empirically but must be taken on faith. How do you ever expect an atheist to accept any argument that comes from faith?

Like I said in my post, I was drawn into the debate thinking the atheist was earnestly looking for the truth about Christianity. I simply gave my best answer based on my Christian experience and on my understanding of scripture relating to the atheist's question. I soon discovered that the atheist totally rejects any truth from scripture.
I allowed myself to become her prey out of my ignorance of their, atheists, motives in posing such questions. I was slow to realize that she was not interested in my Christian "experience," which she called circular reasoning, therefore after several exchanges I saw that I needed to walk away from the debate.

 

[Ph413]

Well that happens to be the case but the important thing is that the person have heard the Gospel and willingly rejected it. I think that in that case we are to leave that person because they are mocking the Gospel and find another person who dind't heard the Gospel and would be willing to hear it.

Matthew 7:6 , Matthew 10:14 , Matthew 10:15