Predestination vs Free Will

BrotherDave

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What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

God created us all in His image with eternal life. Adam had a “good” world to live in and in his perfect free will and capacity to sin he chose to sin by disobeying Gods only command not to eat the apple. In today’s world, forget about it, sin and temptations are everywhere. As a consequence Adam spiritually died that day losing his right to eternal life. Since then all of us humans have been born in sin, non righteous, wicked from the womb, not one seeking God (Eccl 7:20, Ps51:5,58:3) . We are dead in sin and cannot possibly choose to remove ourselves from being under God’s wrath. To be saved is to be given new eternal spiritual life. Only God can do this. Example being the raising of Lazarus. Lazarus was a dead corpse and could not possible decide to choose life. Only after Jesus commanded him to “come forth” was he able to respond from his dead state.

Eph 1:-11 is all about predestination. Anything we choose to do is a work and we are not saved by our works (I Thess 1:3, Gal 2:16) All the glory of salvation belongs to the Lord.

On the flip side. God does not choose any for damnation. He weeps over the lost. The fact is according to His law the whole human race is made up of sinners and deserves death (Ps 58:3, Is 64:6, Eccl 7:20). Remember just one wrong thought is a sin (Matt 5:28). The love and mercy of God is seen in the fact He paid the wage (death) on behalf of any one of us (Ex 33:19,Ro 9:15). That payment was an exact amount, for every single sin of every person He chose to save. All those whose names were written in the Lambs Book of Life beforethe foundation of the world. He did not suffer through hell on the chance that maybe some random number of people would decide to believe on him.

God is not a respecter of persons so his elect are dispersed all over the world in all kinds of situations. He reaches them through the hearing of His word. Hence the command to go out into all the world to spread the gospel. This is also why the end of this world will not happen until the last of his elect hears his call. This is why we should be listening to and reading the bible while praying for God’s mercy. These will not get us saved but will put us in the environment in which God works. Not one of us knows who is elect and who is not. So we all have hope. If we truly think we are one of His we should want to do those things naturally. If we take the attitude of; well I have no control over my salvation so I’m just gonna wait and see…well then sounds like no love for God there.

Remember God chose to save Jacob but not his brother Esau, Abel but not Cain, Noah and his family but no one else, Lot and his family but no one else in Sodom or Gomorrah. How or why God devised His salvation plan this way is a mystery to me. But I do know wecannot choose to accept God. We are spiritually dead in sin and will reject him every time. We can’t decide to say yes to God on some day, fall away and then say yes again. Or think, I want to do what I want to do and then I’ll choose to accept God’s offer of salvation. Doesn’t work that way. He has to first change our stony heart. Only then will we sincerely and truly accept and believe on Him.

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift (2 Co 9:15).
 
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zoidar

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God created us all in His image with eternal life. Adam had a “good” world to live in and in his perfect free will and capacity to sin he chose to sin by disobeying Gods only command not to eat the apple. In today’s world, forget about it, sin and temptations are everywhere. As a consequence Adam spiritually died that day losing his right to eternal life. Since then all of us humans have been born in sin, non righteous, wicked from the womb, not one seeking God (Eccl 7:20, Ps51:5,58:3) . We are dead in sin and cannot possibly choose to remove ourselves from being under God’s wrath. To be saved is to be given new eternal spiritual life. Only God can do this. Example being the raising of Lazarus. Lazarus was a dead corpse and could not possible decide to choose life. Only after Jesus commanded him to “come forth” was he able to respond from his dead state.

Eph 1:-11 is all about predestination. Anything we choose to do is a work and we are not saved by our works (I Thess 1:3, Gal 2:16) All the glory of salvation belongs to the Lord.

On the flip side. God does not choose any for damnation. He weeps over the lost. The fact is according to His law the whole human race is made up of sinners and deserves death (Ps 58:3, Is 64:6, Eccl 7:20). Remember just one wrong thought is a sin (Matt 5:28). The love and mercy of God is seen in the fact He paid the wage (death) on behalf of any one of us (Ex 33:19,Ro 9:15). That payment was an exact amount, for every single sin of every person He chose to save. All those whose names were written in the Lambs Book of Life beforethe foundation of the world. He did not suffer through hell on the chance that maybe some random number of people would decide to believe on him.

God is not a respecter of persons so his elect are dispersed all over the world in all kinds of situations. He reaches them through the hearing of His word. Hence the command to go out into all the world to spread the gospel. This is also why the end of this world will not happen until the last of his elect hears his call. This is why we should be listening to and reading the bible while praying for God’s mercy. These will not get us saved but will put us in the environment in which God works. Not one of us knows who is elect and who is not. So we all have hope. If we truly think we are one of His we should want to do those things naturally. If we take the attitude of; well I have no control over my salvation so I’m just gonna wait and see…well then sounds like no love for God there.

Remember God chose to save Jacob but not his brother Esau, Abel but not Cain, Noah and his family but no one else, Lot and his family but no one else in Sodom or Gomorrah. How or why God devised His salvation plan this way is a mystery to me. But I do know wecannot choose to accept God. We are spiritually dead in sin and will reject him every time. We can’t decide to say yes to God on some day, fall away and then say yes again. Or think, I want to do what I want to do and then I’ll choose to accept God’s offer of salvation. Doesn’t work that way. He has to first change our stony heart. Only then will we sincerely and truly accept and believe on Him.

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift (2 Co 9:15).

Do you know why Noah was saved? Because he was a righteous man (Genesis 6:9). It was not that he was saved so he could be righteous ...
 
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Bobber

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At the same time, I'm curious to know where the "doctrine" of free will comes from.

It is evident that Adam and Eve were presented with a prohibition, and immediately there was an option to disobey. At that moment they had "free will." But in making their wrong decision, they fell under the power and morality of DEATH, becoming "slaves to sin."


So if their will or even the desire to want things is changed when they fell into sin...making them slaves of sin....why weren't they slaves of righteousness before they sinned?
 
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JIMINZ

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Do you know why Noah was saved? Because he was a righteous man (Genesis 6:9). It was not that he was saved so he could be righteous ...

It must be understood and remembered, Noah was only saved Physically, because he was Spiritually Righteous.
 
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zoidar

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It must be understood and remembered, Noah was only saved Physically, because he was Spiritually Righteous.

True, the story doesn't tell how he became spiritually righteous. That's why I felt it was a bad example to use as a proof for predestination for salvation.
 
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JIMINZ

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True, the story doesn't tell how he became spiritually righteous.

Gen 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:8,9
8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

JUST:
H6662
צַדִּיק
tsaddı̂yq
tsad-deek'
From H6663; just: - just, lawful, righteous (man).

H6663
צָדַק
tsâdaq
tsaw-dak'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) right (in a moral or forensic sense): - cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just (-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be, turn to) righteous (-ness).

PERFECT:
H8549
תָּמִים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

H8552
תָּמַם
tâmam
taw-mam'
A primitive root; to complete, in a good or a bad sense, literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively: - accomplish, cease, be clean [pass-] ed, consume, have done, (come to an, make an) end, fail, come to the full, be all gone, X be all here, be (make) perfect, be spent, sum, be (shew self) upright, be wasted, whole.
 
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roman2819

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Predestination in the BIble does not mean predeterminism or choosing of individuals to be saved.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in Ephesians chapter 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" = Jews. Writing to the Gentiles, Paul used the word "We". As he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" Important to note that the apostle used the word "you who are Gentiles". Words like '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles' mean everyone is offered redemption through Jesus. At no time did Paul ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Last edited: Yesterday at 1:21 PM
 
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roman2819

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As I understand it, predestination has a narrow application to salvation, not to every meticulous detail in a person's life. God knows every meticulous detail, but His direct involvement is not in every meticulous detail. More often than not He achieves His purposes through secondary causal agents, Joseph's brothers come to mind. But I think you evaded around my comments without addressing them, only to guard against a position I do not hold which is in philosophical terms hard determinism. So I will press from a different angle. The God of orthodox Christianity is immutable and omniscient, can anyone surprise God or catch Him off guard ever in anything they think, say, or do? So it is not helpful to say; "That doesn't mean He has predestined us how to act." nor separate knowledge from predestination, as though election from eternity entails mindless choosing, or as though the choices of God depend on the foreknowledge of His creatures to first make choices before He reacts to their choices. But that is what you're suggesting, the Creator bowing His will to the creature, tying His omnipotent hands and sitting idly by on the sidelines just waiting and hoping. That would not be the God of the Bible, but a god of men's vain imaginations.

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals at all. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in Ephesians chapter 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" = Jews. Writing to the Gentiles, Paul used the word "We". As he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" Important to note that the apostle used the word "you who are Gentiles". Words like '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles' mean everyone is offered redemption through Jesus. At no time did Paul ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.
 
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Not David

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Or, hear me out here, it could just mean what it says. Let's just take you reasoning and hold it up to the light of scripture, shall we?
Paul was talking about a verse in Jeremiah referring to the potter and clay, in the same book he warns Judah of their faith if they don't repent. Also, it is funny how in the same book of Romans, they talk about "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13). You see that it is talking about decision making?
Also you haven't responded me back with how Calvinism makes God evil.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
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Si_monfaith

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What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?
Lord explains why most do not believe in John 10: 26.

So predestination is truth.
 
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Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals at all.

I doubt you will give a second thought, but for those who might be struggling, I will lead them to a fine resource from a past issue of The Master's Seminary Journal, an article published in the Spring of 2000 by Leslie James Crawford titled "EPHESIANS 1:3-4 AND THE NATURE OF ELECTION".

I will quote the introduction and conclusion, people wanting the detailed exegetical analysis can click on the link above for the full article.

Ephesians 1:3-4 highlights the very important doctrine of election, but the passage is not without interpretive challenges that relate to that doctrine. An examination of individual words and phrases within the section reflects whether it supports the teaching of corporate or individual election. The two verses are part of a doxology that occupies 1:3-14 and emphasizes God’s activity in benefiting His people. Various words and phrases within the doxology that contribute toward a correct understanding of election are “He chose,” “ He predestined ,” “us,” “in Christ,” “holy,” “blameless,” “with every spiritual blessing,” and “in the heavenly places.” An examination of those leads to the conclusion that God in eternity past selected certain individuals to receive a comprehensive spiritual package that includes justification and adoption. The two verses rule out the position of corporate election and support an individual, unconditional view of election.

The subject of election ha s been a controversial one in the history of the church.1 Two opposing viewpoints have traditionally dominated the debate: unconditional, individual election (norm ally associated with a Calvinistic theology) and conditional individual election (normally associated with an Arminian theology). This scenario is changing and a third view is becoming increasingly popular.

The last four decades have brought an increasing number of books that advocate a corporate view on the subject of election.2 The view first denies individual election to salvation and then teaches that all instances w here individuals are chosen in Scripture are appointments to service. A Christian is only elect by virtue of Christ’s election, not on account of a pre-temporal choice by God out of the mass of fallen humanity. It is at the point of conversion, i.e., a believer’s incorporation into the church, that election could be said to apply to any individual.

Though the topic of election is controversial in theological debate, it is crucial to a theological understanding of salvation. On e cannot divorce an understanding of election from a correct view of God since God is the agent who does the choosing. Likewise, it is impossible to separate an understanding of election from one’s view of man since he is the object being chosen. God and man are defined in part by the definition given to election, which makes this subject of prime importance.

A proper comprehension of election is also critical to evangelism,3 which is a primary task of the church. One’s view of election defines the natures of preaching and conversion, and so again the importance of a correct understanding cannot be overstated. In addition, the issue of eternal security has its roots in the ground of election and the relative parts played by God and man in it. All of these combined demand a true biblical comprehension of the elements of election.

Proponents of the corporate understanding of election use Ephesians 1:3-4 to support their position. The following discussion explores the nature of election in Ephesians 1:3-4 by analyzing the exegetical data of the passage in its context and paying special attention to key terms related to election, so that a clear picture of Paul’s understanding of election may result. A determination of whether either the corporate or the individual position can be sustained biblically will then be possible.

<sniped exegetical content mostly because Hebrew and Greek words will not copy properly from pdf on my current setup>

Summarizing Paul’s Understanding of Election

It is now possible to summarize Paul’s understanding of election as expressed by Ephesians 1:3-4. God, in eternity past, for no other reason than His own design and will, selected certain individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity to be the recipients of a comprehensive spiritual package, which include s their justification and adoption. This is an action totally free on God’s part, without any external influence, which is ultimately purpose d to bring praise to Himself, particularly to His grace.

Election, viewed as foreordination, also guarantees the destiny of the elect, with particular reference to adoption. Every elect person is adopted into God’s family with full filial position and privileges. The historical realization of eternal election is the mystical union of the elect with Christ and only in this relationship do the elect receive the accompanying spiritual blessing s also contained in their election.

There are no preconditions to election, such as a person’s foreseen faith or meritorious life. In fact, the goal of election is to provide the necessary spiritual condition for a sinner to have acceptance with God. Paul refers to the elect as those who have already benefited from their election, but God views their condition prior to all that His activity will produce. The objects of election are unbelievers, who will become believers on account of their election. In all of this, God is supreme, sovereign, and Savior.​

IF a person only takes time to read the article in it's entirety, it might do some good. We'll see...
 
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mark kennedy

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I doubt you will give a second thought, but for those who might be struggling, I will lead them to a fine resource from a past issue of The Master's Seminary Journal, an article published in the Spring of 2000 by Leslie James Crawford titled "EPHESIANS 1:3-4 AND THE NATURE OF ELECTION".

I will quote the introduction and conclusion, people wanting the detailed exegetical analysis can click on the link above for the full article.

Ephesians 1:3-4 highlights the very important doctrine of election, but the passage is not without interpretive challenges that relate to that doctrine. An examination of individual words and phrases within the section reflects whether it supports the teaching of corporate or individual election. The two verses are part of a doxology that occupies 1:3-14 and emphasizes God’s activity in benefiting His people. Various words and phrases within the doxology that contribute toward a correct understanding of election are “He chose,” “ He predestined ,” “us,” “in Christ,” “holy,” “blameless,” “with every spiritual blessing,” and “in the heavenly places.” An examination of those leads to the conclusion that God in eternity past selected certain individuals to receive a comprehensive spiritual package that includes justification and adoption. The two verses rule out the position of corporate election and support an individual, unconditional view of election.

The subject of election ha s been a controversial one in the history of the church.1 Two opposing viewpoints have traditionally dominated the debate: unconditional, individual election (norm ally associated with a Calvinistic theology) and conditional individual election (normally associated with an Arminian theology). This scenario is changing and a third view is becoming increasingly popular.

The last four decades have brought an increasing number of books that advocate a corporate view on the subject of election.2 The view first denies individual election to salvation and then teaches that all instances w here individuals are chosen in Scripture are appointments to service. A Christian is only elect by virtue of Christ’s election, not on account of a pre-temporal choice by God out of the mass of fallen humanity. It is at the point of conversion, i.e., a believer’s incorporation into the church, that election could be said to apply to any individual.

Though the topic of election is controversial in theological debate, it is crucial to a theological understanding of salvation. On e cannot divorce an understanding of election from a correct view of God since God is the agent who does the choosing. Likewise, it is impossible to separate an understanding of election from one’s view of man since he is the object being chosen. God and man are defined in part by the definition given to election, which makes this subject of prime importance.

A proper comprehension of election is also critical to evangelism,3 which is a primary task of the church. One’s view of election defines the natures of preaching and conversion, and so again the importance of a correct understanding cannot be overstated. In addition, the issue of eternal security has its roots in the ground of election and the relative parts played by God and man in it. All of these combined demand a true biblical comprehension of the elements of election.

Proponents of the corporate understanding of election use Ephesians 1:3-4 to support their position. The following discussion explores the nature of election in Ephesians 1:3-4 by analyzing the exegetical data of the passage in its context and paying special attention to key terms related to election, so that a clear picture of Paul’s understanding of election may result. A determination of whether either the corporate or the individual position can be sustained biblically will then be possible.

<sniped exegetical content mostly because Hebrew and Greek words will not copy properly from pdf on my current setup>

Summarizing Paul’s Understanding of Election

It is now possible to summarize Paul’s understanding of election as expressed by Ephesians 1:3-4. God, in eternity past, for no other reason than His own design and will, selected certain individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity to be the recipients of a comprehensive spiritual package, which include s their justification and adoption. This is an action totally free on God’s part, without any external influence, which is ultimately purpose d to bring praise to Himself, particularly to His grace.

Election, viewed as foreordination, also guarantees the destiny of the elect, with particular reference to adoption. Every elect person is adopted into God’s family with full filial position and privileges. The historical realization of eternal election is the mystical union of the elect with Christ and only in this relationship do the elect receive the accompanying spiritual blessing s also contained in their election.

There are no preconditions to election, such as a person’s foreseen faith or meritorious life. In fact, the goal of election is to provide the necessary spiritual condition for a sinner to have acceptance with God. Paul refers to the elect as those who have already benefited from their election, but God views their condition prior to all that His activity will produce. The objects of election are unbelievers, who will become believers on account of their election. In all of this, God is supreme, sovereign, and Savior.​

IF a person only takes time to read the article in it's entirety, it might do some good. We'll see...
I'm still pouring over this article, it has rare exegetical notes, that seem strangely familiar. God proclaims his name as he passes before Moses on Sinai, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy', of course salvation is the sovereign choice of God. This could lead to some anxiety regarding who God will chose, could he chose one such as I, I wonder. Then comes the good news, accept the message delivered to you through prophets and apostles and you will be selected, chosen in the beloved, removing all doubt. Not that you have to believe anything beyond your understanding, just Christ and him crucified and believe the one who makes the promise is faithful.

I'll go over the article when I get some time, there is a lot there to unpack. I liked this quote, forgive me a little exegetical digression but you did pick a scholarly article:

Here proorisas occurs as a participle qualifying the main verb. exelexato, previously stated in verse four, and specifies the actions of God in eternity whereby He has fixed in advance the destiny of certain people. The Greek term υἱοθεσία translated “adoption as sons”, describes that destiny as God’s taking the elect into his family. By this act, the elect receive the family name and inheritance, as if they were natural sons. (Ephesians 1:3-4 and the Nature of Election. Leslie Crawford)
Adopted as sons, that had great meaning in the first century. Bought as a slave a really good worker could be adopted as a son, with full rights as a natural son and full rights to inheritance. I'm reminded of this passage:

What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. (Galatians 5:1-5)
What is peculiar here is that he talks about our status before conversion as an underage heir, I mean we are still under the 'elemental spiritual forces' right? I'm from a Baptist, kind of a fundamentalist/evangelical background so the idea of a time of decision is a familiar one. What Calvinism introduces, in fact insists on, was that even prior to the time of decision when you pray the sinners prayer and follow the Roman's road to salvation, God had already chosen you. That's one of those brain busters, so he already knew what my choice would be. We know he chose some of the prophets from the womb, I do mean before they were born, John the Baptist for instance and there were others. Ok, so God knows the thoughts and inclinations of the heart, even in the womb, not too devastating. Then Paul says, from before the foundation of the world, but what could this possibly mean? Did he write my name down in a book and then later inform me of my predestination?

That's a little hard to fathom, but Paul isn't really beating around the bush here. He says God knew me before the world was founded, not a lot of wiggle room here. Here is what I finally decided and I'm still working on it, the new nature is really the communicable attributes of God. Everything that is the righteousness of God in Christ was predestined and you have only to receive it by faith. That's really the good news, you don't have to go on some great quest to the mountain top or the depths of the sea:

Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:5-9)
I have a hard time with the predestination thing but I realize Paul is speaking from a cultural context that exalts the sovereign will of God, it's forgivable if there is a little hyperbole. But this is from the book of Deuteronomy, Moses last series of sermons before the children of Israel enter the promised land. He would stand on a mountain and watch, he had made some mistakes and didn't get to go with them. Before they departed, he had a final message for them, you don't need to ascend into the heavens, you don't need to search the depths of the sea. The word is in your heart and in your mouth, just believe, and witness to what God has done. I can handle that, believe the one who makes the promise is faithful, believe in the Son of God and you will be saved. You will be chosen in the beloved and he will send you the Holy Spirit of promise to be with you forever. As far as the plans and purposes of God from before the foundations of the world, I suppose I will have to wait until I see him face to face and I know even as I'm known. But as a matter of faith, predestination seems pretty comprehensive to me. It didn't surprise God when Adam sinned or when you got saved.

Thanks for the article AW, there is a lot to unpack here, some great exegetical notes that will take some time. But I'll do the best I can to make time, it looks like it is worth more then a cursory reading.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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zoidar

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Gen 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:8,9
8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

JUST:
H6662
צַדִּיק
tsaddı̂yq
tsad-deek'
From H6663; just: - just, lawful, righteous (man).

H6663
צָדַק
tsâdaq
tsaw-dak'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) right (in a moral or forensic sense): - cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just (-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be, turn to) righteous (-ness).

PERFECT:
H8549
תָּמִים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

H8552
תָּמַם
tâmam
taw-mam'
A primitive root; to complete, in a good or a bad sense, literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively: - accomplish, cease, be clean [pass-] ed, consume, have done, (come to an, make an) end, fail, come to the full, be all gone, X be all here, be (make) perfect, be spent, sum, be (shew self) upright, be wasted, whole.

Noah found grace of God, why? Because he wasn't like the others; He was righteous and walked with God. To make Gen 6 to mean anything else is to make conclusions of something that isn't there. The story doesn't tell how Noah became righteous.

(v. 6) Was God sad he didn't make more people righteous or was God sad because people had wicked hearts and wanted nothing to do with Him? It seems unreasonable to think God was sad because he gave too few people grace. No it must have been people's own doing, own free will.
 
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mark kennedy

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Noah found grace of God, why? Because he wasn't like the others; He was righteous and walked with God. To make Gen 6 to mean anything else is to make conclusions of something that isn't there. The story doesn't tell how Noah became righteous.

(v. 6) Was God sad he didn't make more people righteous or was God sad because people had wicked hearts and wanted nothing to do with Him? It seems unreasonable to think God was sad because he gave too few people grace. No it must have been people's own doing, own free will.
Noah was like 500 years old and yet his descendants replenished the earth. Do you see any significance in that?
 
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zoidar

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Noah was like 500 years old and yet his descendants replenished the earth. Do you see any significance in that?

I'm not sure what this has to do with predestination?

Significance, yes, just like Christians will spread all over the world. Just like Christ was the chosen to save the world, Noah was chosen to "save" the world. The Bible says that Noah was chosen because he like an image of Christ was righteous.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm not sure what this has to do with predestination?

Significance, yes, just like Christians will spread all over the world. Just like Christ was the chosen to save the world, Noah was chosen to "save" the world. The Bible say that Noah was chosen because like an image of Christ he was righteous.
Well maybe there is something here, just bear with me. Moses was probably 80 when he saw the burning bush, Abraham was 90 when he had his first son. If your predestined doesn't that call for patience? Not really trying to make a big point, just wondering about your thoughts on this.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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So does predestination mean that there are babies who die and are sent to hell? Wouldn't that be an implication of predestination? Age shouldn't have anything to do with it, no?
That's something, literally, God only kniws. Predestination involves God's plans and purposes from before the foundation of the world, we do know what we need to know, that all the promises and covenants are yea and amen in Christ. Paul's first 18 verses is one sentence in the first chapter. Its like a prayer or hymn of praise, when he speaks of predestination and foreknowledge he is emphasising what we recieve in Christ, it should be understood in Christ.
 
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That's something, literally, God only kniws. Predestination involves God's plans and purposes from before the foundation of the world, we do know what we need to know, that all the promises and covenants are yea and amen in Christ. Paul's first 18 verses is one sentence in the first chapter. Its like a prayer or hymn of praise, when he speaks of predestination and foreknowledge he is emphasising what we recieve in Christ, it should be understood in Christ.

Thanks. Eastern Orthodox is starting to look more and more attractive every day. Lord have mercy.
 
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