Predestination vs Free Will

Oldmantook

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My opinion is, both Calvinism, and Arminianism are skewed, both being based upon a misunderstanding of what Scripture actually said.
So out of curiosity do have any inclination of how to reconcile predestination vs. free will? Mine is God is strong enough to save everyone + God want to save everyone = everyone is saved. The lake of fire which is a literal, physical place is not for eternal punishment but punishment only for an age of time until God's will is accomplished for all humankind. Thus God's predestination is accomplished while at the same time preserving man'a free will "so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Phil 2:10). I think that covers all the bases.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Just ask yourself, do you exercise your will and do you have the choice to sin or not to sin, or are you sinless?
My friend, we each have a will. Scripture calls it "self will".
We choose things according to our nature.
There is no such thing as free will. In heaven, we will not be "free to sin" or able to sin. We are not free to sin righnt now, but we are still able to sin ;
rom7:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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JIMINZ

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So out of curiosity do have any inclination of how to reconcile predestination vs. free will? Mine is God is strong enough to save everyone + God want to save everyone = everyone is saved. The lake of fire which is a literal, physical place is not for eternal punishment but punishment only for an age of time until God's will is accomplished for all humankind. Thus God's predestination is accomplished while at the same time preserving man'a free will "so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Phil 2:10). I think that covers all the bases.

My answer was in my post #47 below.

As far as Free Will is concerned, mankind only has such within the confines of (DOMINION), which was given to mankind by God, in order for him to subdue the earth.

The notion of mankind having Free Will that would allow him the ability to refuse Salvation or even to walk away from it once received is ludicrous.

As far as reconciling Predestination and Free Will I have not inclination to do so.

But suffice to say, my answer does away with both.

A man is not Predestined to, nor does he have Free Will.
 
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JIMINZ

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My friend, we each have a will. Scripture calls it "self will".
We choose things according to our nature.
There is no such thing as free will. In heaven, we will not be "free to sin" or able to sin. We are not free to sin righnt now, but we are still able to sin ;
rom7:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


That last verse is not a condoning of a Christians ability to still sin, but an explinition as to why he does not.
 
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Oldmantook

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My friend, we each have a will. Scripture calls it "self will".
We choose things according to our nature.
There is no such thing as free will. In heaven, we will not be "free to sin" or able to sin. We are not free to sin righnt now, but we are still able to sin ;
rom7:
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So on some days/occasions, do you exercise your self-will to sin or do you obey God/Spirit/Word -or are you sinless? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
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Oldmantook

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My answer was in my post #47 below.



As far as reconciling Predestination and Free Will I have not inclination to do so.

But suffice to say, my answer does away with both.

A man is not Predestined to, nor does he have Free Will.
So how does that practically work out - if a man is not predestined to, nor does he have free will?
 
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JIMINZ

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These being "selfwilled" are not representative of mankind's' Free Will.

These people are.
2 Pet. 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.




2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Therefore, these people are not demonstrating Free Will, or even Self Will because they have been overtaken by Corruption, being the servants of sin.

Does not sound as though they have any will at all.
 
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JIMINZ

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So how does that practically work out - if a man is not predestined to, nor does he have free will?

Very nicely.

God draws every man, in HIS (Gods') time.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Co 15:22,23
22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Free Will denotes, anyone could exercise their Free Will and come to Christ at any time they (Will to), but we see they don't.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 3:10-12
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Free Will?......NO!
 
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zoidar

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Well I asked because omniscience is all-knowing and your statement "I don't believe God predestined who will give his/her life to Jesus." seems to be in conflict with the omniscience of God as it seems to be a denial that God knows individuals in advance.

Knowing is a component of predestination, the primary component is the will of God in choosing individuals (before the foundation of world), that is electing them to salvation.

If I know someone very well I can know how this person will act in a given situation, does that mean I have predestined that person? God knows us perfectly, of course He knows how we will act and can plan accordingly. That doesn't mean He has predestined us how to act.
 
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martymonster

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Probably symbolic, otherwise, you are saying God is the one making us sin so he will be psychotic of blaming us for sins he makes us do.

Or, hear me out here, it could just mean what it says. Let's just take you reasoning and hold it up to the light of scripture, shall we?


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
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If I know someone very well I can know how this person will act in a given situation, does that mean I have predestined that person? God knows us perfectly, of course He knows how we will act and can plan accordingly. That doesn't mean He has predestined us how to act.

As I understand it, predestination has a narrow application to salvation, not to every meticulous detail in a person's life. God knows every meticulous detail, but His direct involvement is not in every meticulous detail. More often than not He achieves His purposes through secondary causal agents, Joseph's brothers come to mind. But I think you evaded around my comments without addressing them, only to guard against a position I do not hold which is in philosophical terms hard determinism. So I will press from a different angle. The God of orthodox Christianity is immutable and omniscient, can anyone surprise God or catch Him off guard ever in anything they think, say, or do? So it is not helpful to say; "That doesn't mean He has predestined us how to act." nor separate knowledge from predestination, as though election from eternity entails mindless choosing, or as though the choices of God depend on the foreknowledge of His creatures to first make choices before He reacts to their choices. But that is what you're suggesting, the Creator bowing His will to the creature, tying His omnipotent hands and sitting idly by on the sidelines just waiting and hoping. That would not be the God of the Bible, but a god of men's vain imaginations.
 
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zoidar

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As I understand it, predestination has a narrow application to salvation, not to every meticulous detail in a person's life. God knows every meticulous detail, but His direct involvement is not in every meticulous detail. More often than not He achieves His purposes through secondary causal agents, Joseph's brothers come to mind. But I think you evaded around my comments without addressing them, only to guard against a position I do not hold which is in philosophical terms hard determinism. So I will press from a different angle. The God of orthodox Christianity is immutable and omniscient, can anyone surprise God or catch Him off guard ever in anything they think, say, or do? So it is not helpful to say; "That doesn't mean He has predestined us how to act." nor separate knowledge from predestination, as though election from eternity entails mindless choosing, or as though the choices of God depend on the foreknowledge of His creatures to first make choices before He reacts to their choices. But that is what you're suggesting, the Creator bowing His will to the creature, tying His omnipotent hands and sitting idly by on the sidelines just waiting and hoping. That would not be the God of the Bible, but a god of men's vain imaginations.

No I don't believe God sits and waits and hopes for us to make a choice. God draws us. If He didn't none of us would be saved. Of course nothing can surprise God. What I'm saying knowing all doesn't mean you predestine everything, and certainly not who is going to be saved. Still you can predestine heaven to those who believe. I believe that God is omnipresent and sovereign, but that still doesn't take our free will away.

I have used this picture a few times: God"s will is the big wheel. Our free will is the small wheel inside of the big wheel. The big wheel isn't controlling the small wheel, yet the small wheel is dependant of the big wheel. Free will is a mystery.
 
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Chris V++

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My friend, we each have a will. Scripture calls it "self will".
We choose things according to our nature.
There is no such thing as free will. In heaven, we will not be "free to sin" or able to sin. We are not free to sin righnt now, but we are still able to sin ;
rom7:

This 'free will / self will' distinction all seems like a game of semantics. So if I choose bacon for breakfast am I exercising my free will or my self will? Maybe if being told we don't have free it should be clarified immediately like you did above with the 'we are not free to sin' caveat. We can still choose to sin, which is exercising our 'self 'will, but are not granted freedom to sin, meaning we haven't a 'free will.' Or do you believe we don't willfully choose to sin either, and that sin is just a consequence of our predisposition and our God established circumstances and environment that informs our choices?
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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These being "selfwilled" are not representative of mankind's' Free Will.

These people are.
2 Pet. 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.




2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Therefore, these people are not demonstrating Free Will, or even Self Will because they have been overtaken by Corruption, being the servants of sin.

Does not sound as though they have any will at all.
Apart from God’s grace,this is the condition of all unsaved persons.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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This 'free will / self will' distinction all seems like a game of semantics. So if I choose bacon for breakfast am I exercising my free will or my self will? Maybe if being told we don't have free it should be clarified immediately like you did above with the 'we are not free to sin' caveat. We can still choose to sin, which is exercising our 'self 'will, but are not granted freedom to sin, meaning we haven't a 'free will.' Or do you believe we don't willfully choose to sin either, and that sin is just a consequence of our predisposition and our God established circumstances and environment that informs our choices?
The idea of free will is a false carnal philosophical idea. Our will is bound by our nature.
 
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Bobber

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The idea of free will is a false carnal philosophical idea. Our will is bound by our nature.

You need to define the following. In your saying our nature is controlling our will are you saying the mental state of the one doesn't desire the opposite? Multitudes are bound to nicotine but in their hearts, in their minds and will they want freedom. They may cave in to their nicotine but you can't say their will didn't have the wanting to be free.
 
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