Predestination vs Free Will

[Dave L]

You cannot back up that claim with the Bible.

“also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,” Ephesians 1:11 (NASB95)

“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (NASB95)

 

[Moshia]

That is actually not correct interpretation. (Quick note: I'm not mad. Typing just doesn't do well to convey my actual voice)

Romans 8:29 Gives a better example of "Predestination"

It says: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

God knows EVERYTHING, and He knew who would receive the Gospel and become His children/followers. And God predestined His followers to become like Jesus.

This is what "Predestination" is.

The Ephesians verse you quoted is talking about our inheritance as believers. We become joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

And as for the Phillipians verse, God is guiding us, born-again believers to do His will. That's what that is saying.

Your claim that "God sovereignly guides all our decisions" is in contradiction to what God says.

What I'm saying is, God's will is not done in every human's life.

It says in 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."

God doesn't lead people down their path, people freely choose it.

We believers on the other hand are guided by the Holy Spirit to walk in God's will.

 

[Bobber]

You are missing the point. It is a near perfect illustration of how God controls our free choices through the circumstances he sends our way. That is, you choose exactly as he planned you would because of the reasons he provided for you to base your "free choices" on.

Sorry Dave but I'll leave readers to decide if I've missed any point not you for you're deeply committed to your paradigm. But I contend absolutely no point was missed.

You're trying to put forth that God (in how you see him) would not be the author of sin. As one can go back and see what I said in post 198 the assessment of that MUST go back even before the goat existed for you believe goats were created to be goats. That would make God the author of sin any way you cut it. If they were created to be this they were created to be this plain and simple.

 

[Moshia]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

Hey! Good question.

There is actually no evidence supporting the claim that states "God only picks some people to be saved".

There is only one Truth. That truth is that people have a free choice.

First, let's look at "predestination".

Romans 8:29 is the cause for a lot of this doctrine.

It says: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

In other words, God knows everything and He knows who will receive His salvation.
God predestined His people to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Predestination in the Bible is talking about Believers becoming like Jesus. Not God choosing who He wants to be saved.

It also says in Romans 2:11 that "For God does not show favoritism." Please go through this chapter and take a look!

As for God's will, many think that His will is always done. one of the biggest verses on this is 2 Peter 3:9

It says: "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance"

We can see that God does not want anyone to perish but to all be saved.
However, everyday there are people perishing.

Another quick one is John 3:16: It says that "For God so loved the world that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

We can see that the doctrine that says "God only picks whom He saves" has no backup evidence in the Bible.

 

[Moshia]

Sorry Dave but I'll leave readers to decide if I've missed any point not you for you're deeply committed to your paradigm. But I contend absolutely no point was missed.

You're trying to put forth that God (in how you see him) would not be the author of sin. As one can go back and see what I said in post 198 the assessment of that MUST go back even before the goat existed for you believe goats were created to be goats. That would make God the author of sin any way you cut it. If they were created to be this they were created to be this plain and simple.

Hey Bobber, I support your stance that God doesn't make us choose anything. (I believe that is what you are saying, right?) I believe we have a free will as well!

But I just wanted to give you some support:

When talking with other believers, we gotta use what is written in the Bible to show what people have wrong. (It says in 2 Timothy 3:16 that "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness".

I actually responded to his statement as well, but I have been doing research for years on these topics and have answers (not to all things of course).

Feel free to take a look at my posts and see if they help you become more aware of what the Bible says that shows that "we have free will" is actually right!

I will post in our chat my response to the main question on this thread so you can find it easier:

Hey! Good question.

There is actually no evidence supporting the claim that states "God only picks some people to be saved".

There is only one Truth. That truth is that people have a free choice.

First, let's look at "predestination".

Romans 8:29 is the cause for a lot of this doctrine.

It says: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

In other words, God knows everything and He knows who will receive His salvation.
God predestined His people to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Predestination in the Bible is talking about Believers becoming like Jesus. Not God choosing who He wants to be saved.

It also says in Romans 2:11 that "For God does not show favoritism." Please go through this chapter and take a look!

Many people think that God's will is always done, but that is not true. One of the biggest verses on this is 2 Peter 3:9

It says: "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance

We can see that God does not want anyone to perish but to all be saved.
However, everyday there are people perishing.

Another quick one is John 3:16: It says that "For God so loved the world that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

We can see that the doctrine that says "God only picks whom He saves" has no backup evidence in the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry Dave but I'll leave readers to decide if I've missed any point not you for you're deeply committed to your paradigm. But I contend absolutely no point was missed.

You're trying to put forth that God (in how you see him) would not be the author of sin. As one can go back and see what I said in post 198 the assessment of that MUST go back even before the goat existed for you believe goats were created to be goats. That would make God the author of sin any way you cut it. If they were created to be this they were created to be this plain and simple.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

 

[Moshia]

Im glad you mentioned that verse as well.

I recommend to keep reading that chapter. God starts talking about bringing salvation to people in the following verses.

And in Isaiah 45:9, God says: "Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?".

God is speaking to all who oppose Him in this verse (Some examples of people rebelling against God, but not limited to are: Homosexual relationships, inappropriate behavior with animals, false idol worshipping, coveting, etc.)

Now, looking at the context of these verses (they go well together) we can see that God brings "calamity" on all who oppose Him.

Note: God is not doing that in this new covenant.

One fun example of Jesus rebuking the destruction of people, even for rejecting Him is in Luke 9:54-56 where Jesus rebukes John for wanting to kill people for rejecting God!

This happened: "But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, You know not what manner of spirit you are of.
56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."

God does not do anything evil many people claim God to be doing today, today.

Back on track, we see this throughout the nations (Sodom and Gomorrah for example. They lived in complete rebellion - raping, murdering, etc.) and God brought judgement. In other words, "Calamity".

And even the Israelites lived in rebellion at times.

One example of this is 2 Kings 17:17 which says "Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him"

They were provoking God by doing evil. This is also a good verse to see that God hates evil.

God brings calamity on the wicked, that is what is being talked about here.

Remember this: The old testament was all works based. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28, God clearly explains that "If you do good, you get blessings. If you do bad, bad things will come upon you."

However, as for those "Bad things" God refers to them as curses. (Deuteronomy 28:15-68 has a whole list of what happens for disobeying God)

HOWEVER! As for us in the new covenant, Romans chapter 4 covers this in good detail, but I'll just quote 7-8 to keep it short.

"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

This is us!

We are forgiven, and we are no longer under the "curses" of the old covenant.

Anything that happens is because Satan has come to steal kill and destroy
(Note: This even applies to old testament, as we know satan has been a liar and a thief from the beginning. God brought judgement, but satan brought destruction)

But Jesus came that we may have life and it more abundantly! (John 10:10)

Remember this, some versions say "Evil" and some say calamity.

But always remember that God does not ever do "evil".

As it says in Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

Lying is evil and God hates it. It says in Proverbs 6:16-19 that "There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community."

God does not devise wicked schemes, He does not lie, He does not shed innocent blood, etc.

These "Evil things" in your version can be mistaken for some terrible things God does not do.

 

[Paul G West Sr]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

 

[Paul G West Sr]

I do not choose one or the other, but both! I believe it is not an either/or situation, but that GOD PREDESTINED ME TO CHOOSE HIM. He looked forward in time to 1977, and when I recognized my sinful condition and repented, asking Him to save me and be Lord of my life, He said yes! I had no pre-knowledge of it, so when I chose Him, it was of my own free will. What's so difficult about that? When I hear the question predestination vs. free will, I say YES!

 

[Bobber]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

Understand the context. God bringing judgement is not truly evil but evil was attributed with every negative thing that takes place in the minds of men.

 

[Dave L]

Understand the context. God bringing judgement is not truly evil but evil was attributed with every negative thing that takes place in the minds of men.

Don't read ideas into the passage. Who created Satan and demons?