Predestination vs Free Will

Monna

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So if their will or even the desire to want things is changed when they fell into sin...making them slaves of sin....why weren't they slaves of righteousness before they sinned?

For the simple reason that they were created "free." If the Son makes you free you are free indeed.

In his metaphor of slavery, Paul wants us to be "slaves of righteousness" but we're "slaves" willingly. The picture in the OT was of Israelites who, for whatever reason, sold themselves into slavery, were to be set free in the 7th year, but if the wished to remain in their status as slaves in their current household, they were bound to stay. They had had a taste of "slavery" but were free to go; chose to stay and became permanent slaves. As "slaves" to Christ, we know the terms of slavery to this particular owner, are only positive. We become adopted as children of God, we find ourselves with a master, Lord, who is committed to transforming us to be all be can be, all we were intended to be as human beings.

Sin is only dedicated to destruction, dispoiliation (sp?), disfigurement, dehumanisation, entrapment and death.

And as believers we are able to knowingly sin, we know the consequences in a way that Adam & Eve didn't, and once we make a choice, the consequences are not optional, they come automatically.
 
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BBAS 64

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Predestination in the BIble does not mean predeterminism or choosing of individuals to be saved.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in Ephesians chapter 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" = Jews. Writing to the Gentiles, Paul used the word "We". As he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" Important to note that the apostle used the word "you who are Gentiles". Words like '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles' mean everyone is offered redemption through Jesus. At no time did Paul ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Last edited: Yesterday at 1:21 PM


Good Day, romans2819

Your forget the first 10 verses in Eph 1


Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


The pronouns (us, we, you, your, our) used in this text are referring to the Saints, they as saints are the passive objects of the verbs that God does, Blessed, Chose, should be, predestined, adoption, have redemption, forgiveness, make known, obtained, hope,.


You cannot just skip to verse 11 and remain faithful to the grammar and construction of the extremely long single run on sentence.

Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

That in fact may be true , but the issue of course is the text of Eph 1-14 clearly does not teach that in anyway.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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I doubt you will give a second thought, but for those who might be struggling, I will lead them to a fine resource from a past issue of The Master's Seminary Journal, an article published in the Spring of 2000 by Leslie James Crawford titled "EPHESIANS 1:3-4 AND THE NATURE OF ELECTION".

I will quote the introduction and conclusion, people wanting the detailed exegetical analysis can click on the link above for the full article.

Ephesians 1:3-4 highlights the very important doctrine of election, but the passage is not without interpretive challenges that relate to that doctrine. An examination of individual words and phrases within the section reflects whether it supports the teaching of corporate or individual election. The two verses are part of a doxology that occupies 1:3-14 and emphasizes God’s activity in benefiting His people. Various words and phrases within the doxology that contribute toward a correct understanding of election are “He chose,” “ He predestined ,” “us,” “in Christ,” “holy,” “blameless,” “with every spiritual blessing,” and “in the heavenly places.” An examination of those leads to the conclusion that God in eternity past selected certain individuals to receive a comprehensive spiritual package that includes justification and adoption. The two verses rule out the position of corporate election and support an individual, unconditional view of election.

The subject of election ha s been a controversial one in the history of the church.1 Two opposing viewpoints have traditionally dominated the debate: unconditional, individual election (norm ally associated with a Calvinistic theology) and conditional individual election (normally associated with an Arminian theology). This scenario is changing and a third view is becoming increasingly popular.

The last four decades have brought an increasing number of books that advocate a corporate view on the subject of election.2 The view first denies individual election to salvation and then teaches that all instances w here individuals are chosen in Scripture are appointments to service. A Christian is only elect by virtue of Christ’s election, not on account of a pre-temporal choice by God out of the mass of fallen humanity. It is at the point of conversion, i.e., a believer’s incorporation into the church, that election could be said to apply to any individual.

Though the topic of election is controversial in theological debate, it is crucial to a theological understanding of salvation. On e cannot divorce an understanding of election from a correct view of God since God is the agent who does the choosing. Likewise, it is impossible to separate an understanding of election from one’s view of man since he is the object being chosen. God and man are defined in part by the definition given to election, which makes this subject of prime importance.

A proper comprehension of election is also critical to evangelism,3 which is a primary task of the church. One’s view of election defines the natures of preaching and conversion, and so again the importance of a correct understanding cannot be overstated. In addition, the issue of eternal security has its roots in the ground of election and the relative parts played by God and man in it. All of these combined demand a true biblical comprehension of the elements of election.

Proponents of the corporate understanding of election use Ephesians 1:3-4 to support their position. The following discussion explores the nature of election in Ephesians 1:3-4 by analyzing the exegetical data of the passage in its context and paying special attention to key terms related to election, so that a clear picture of Paul’s understanding of election may result. A determination of whether either the corporate or the individual position can be sustained biblically will then be possible.

<sniped exegetical content mostly because Hebrew and Greek words will not copy properly from pdf on my current setup>

Summarizing Paul’s Understanding of Election

It is now possible to summarize Paul’s understanding of election as expressed by Ephesians 1:3-4. God, in eternity past, for no other reason than His own design and will, selected certain individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity to be the recipients of a comprehensive spiritual package, which include s their justification and adoption. This is an action totally free on God’s part, without any external influence, which is ultimately purpose d to bring praise to Himself, particularly to His grace.

Election, viewed as foreordination, also guarantees the destiny of the elect, with particular reference to adoption. Every elect person is adopted into God’s family with full filial position and privileges. The historical realization of eternal election is the mystical union of the elect with Christ and only in this relationship do the elect receive the accompanying spiritual blessing s also contained in their election.

There are no preconditions to election, such as a person’s foreseen faith or meritorious life. In fact, the goal of election is to provide the necessary spiritual condition for a sinner to have acceptance with God. Paul refers to the elect as those who have already benefited from their election, but God views their condition prior to all that His activity will produce. The objects of election are unbelievers, who will become believers on account of their election. In all of this, God is supreme, sovereign, and Savior.​

IF a person only takes time to read the article in it's entirety, it might do some good. We'll see...

Thanks for this... great reading and lots of unpacking to do here.

Thanks Again!

Bill
 
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zoidar

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Well maybe there is something here, just bear with me. Moses was probably 80 when he saw the burning bush, Abraham was 90 when he had his first son. If your predestined doesn't that call for patience? Not really trying to make a big point, just wondering about your thoughts on this.

Grace and peace,
Mark

My thoughts are that it's the promise that call for patience, not predestination, since you can't even know you are predestined.
 
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mark kennedy

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Thanks. Eastern Orthodox is starting to look more and more attractive every day. Lord have mercy.
I know I've always like them, walk in the light as God gives you the light.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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My thoughts are that it's the promise that call for patience, not predestination, since you can't even know you are predestined.
Honestly, Paul discussing predestination and foreknowledge, which are the same word basically, sounds like hyperbole. It reminds me of Paul talking about how he would be willing to be cut off from Christ if his Hebrew brethren would come to faith, which btw, is kind of a contradiction when you think of it. I think what Paul is talking about is that God purposed before he foundation of the world how salvation would work, the first 18 verses of Ephesians is like a hymn of praise.

You hit on a key concept here, patience, that's kind of what I was getting at with Noah and Moses. Predestination isn't really a hard concept, it's one of those things that doesn't change, the plans and purposes of God. Sometimes we have to wait.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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zoidar

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Honestly, Paul discussing predestination and foreknowledge, which are the same word basically, sounds like hyperbole. It reminds me of Paul talking about how he would be willing to be cut off from Christ if his Hebrew brethren would come to faith, which btw, is kind of a contradiction when you think of it. I think what Paul is talking about is that God purposed before he foundation of the world how salvation would work, the first 18 verses of Ephesians is like a hymn of praise.

You hit on a key concept here, patience, that's kind of what I was getting at with Noah and Moses. Predestination isn't really a hard concept, it's one of those things that doesn't change, the plans and purposes of God. Sometimes we have to wait.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Is there such a thing as arbitrary predestination and does being predestined mean that you will end up the way you were predestined? Is that the right understanding of biblical predestination? I come to think of three passages in the Bible.

Matthew 18:21-34

The Lord takes on himself the dept of his slave, forgiving him. Then the slave won't forgive his fellow slave. When the Lord hears this He retracts the forgiveness and reinstalls the dept. Could it be said that this slave was predestined to salvation/freedom from dept, he was forgiven, but in the end he himself had to pay.

2 Kings 20:1-

Hezekia is given a word of God by the prophet that he will die. But when the Lord hears the prayers and sees the tears of Hezekia He changes His mind and adds 15 years to his life. Could it be said that Hezekia was predestined to die, but the Lord was willing to change that?

1 Samuel 9

You also have Saul who was crowned king and elected to get rid of the philistines. Wasn't he predestinated for this, yet it was David who conquered the philistines.

15 Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, 16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me.”

These are my thoughts. What do you think?
 
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Neostarwcc

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Honestly, Paul discussing predestination and foreknowledge, which are the same word basically, sounds like hyperbole. It reminds me of Paul talking about how he would be willing to be cut off from Christ if his Hebrew brethren would come to faith, which btw, is kind of a contradiction when you think of it. I think what Paul is talking about is that God purposed before he foundation of the world how salvation would work, the first 18 verses of Ephesians is like a hymn of praise.

You hit on a key concept here, patience, that's kind of what I was getting at with Noah and Moses. Predestination isn't really a hard concept, it's one of those things that doesn't change, the plans and purposes of God. Sometimes we have to wait.

Grace and peace,
Mark

But Jesus also talked about predestination see John 15:16, John 6:37, and also see John 10:7 and John 10:14 where Jesus says that he is the gate for the sheep and whoever enters through him will be saved. He also says that he knows who his sheep are and his sheep know who he is. If our salvation isn't predestined in some way than why would God say that we didn't choose him but he chose us? I don't think Paul's statements of predestination are not meant to be taken literally and they do in fact match up with Jesus's teachings. All of Paul's teachings match up with Jesus's teachings or they never would have allowed his letters to be placed in the Bible in the first place.
 
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mark kennedy

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But Jesus also talked about predestination see John 15:16, John 6:37, and also see John 10:7 and John 10:14 where Jesus says that he is the gate for the sheep and whoever enters through him will be saved. He also says that he knows who his sheep are and his sheep know who he is. If our salvation isn't predestined in some way than why would God say that we didn't choose him but he chose us? I don't think Paul's statements of predestination are not meant to be taken literally and they do in fact match up with Jesus's teachings. All of Paul's teachings match up with Jesus's teachings or they never would have allowed his letters to be placed in the Bible in the first place.
What I have always thought about predestination is it's based on the divine attributes of God, which are, for lack of a better way of expressing it, virtues:

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Colossians 3:12-14)
Here Paul offers a list of things we are to clothe ourselves, I am reminded of the wedding dress of the bride of Christ, white and clean which are the works of the saints:

it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (Rev. 19:8)
Jesus described himself as being eternal, God himself 'was, is and is to come the almighty' (Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6)

So those virtues are what theologians called the communicable attributes of God, we cannot be almighty or eternal in the sense of always was and always will be but certainly God has predetermined that we be virtuous, in the sense of being the righteousness of God in Christ. I think that's the essence of what Paul is saying, the plans and purposes of God were always the same because he does not change.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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roman2819

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Good Day, romans2819

Your forget the first 10 verses in Eph 1


Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


The pronouns (us, we, you, your, our) used in this text are referring to the Saints, they as saints are the passive objects of the verbs that God does, Blessed, Chose, should be, predestined, adoption, have redemption, forgiveness, make known, obtained, hope,.


You cannot just skip to verse 11 and remain faithful to the grammar and construction of the extremely long single run on sentence.



That in fact may be true , but the issue of course is the text of Eph 1-14 clearly does not teach that in anyway.

In Him,

Bill

Hello @BBAS64

In the first ten verses, Paul was giving praises for the people at Ephesians; there is no basis to take the word Saints to mean anything more than praising them for their faith.

The first 10 verses should be read as part of chapter 1,2,and 3, which would be 80 to 90 verses in total. All these should be read in context, and if we do so, we will see that Paul said God predestine the Jews first, then the Gentiles, and through Christ, these two group of people were now one in God's eyes. Everyone now have access to redemption if they repent in Christ. It was no more only Jews had access to God, Gentiles excluded.

The following will surprise you:

Many people see the word "elect" to mean God choose people on individual basis. But "elect" in the Scripture is a word of humility. During biblical times ( 2000 to 3000 year ago), even though people made a conscious choice to repent and turn to God, yet they humbly say that God chose them. Back then, it would be arrogant to say that they choose God -- which would sound like they put themselves above God and choose Him. Instead they said the almighty and merciful God choose them. Today we don't speak this way anymore, hence many people fail to comprehend the spirit of the word "elect", and (mis)interpret it literally. Translated words from Greek to English does not tell us the spirit or context of the original words.

Back then, Christians and Jews were not he only ones who used humble terms when speaking about God. Many ancient eastern orthodox religions did too. This is something that we do not practice now; it is obvious that people today are less efferent and less fearful towards divine elements, compared to 1000 or 3000. years ago, and this is partly due to progress in science and technology. As people's attitude change, languages change too. Some of the ways we use God's name now, whether in movies or daily conversations, would be unthinkable or even considered heretic in biblical times.

If individual predestination was true, surely Jesus would have spoken about it. Or even taught about it substantially. But He just didn't. There just isn't sufficient context. I just don't see how 10 verses from Ephesians 1 - plus some random verses here and there in the Scripture - could add up to anything credible to explain individual predestination.
 
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roman2819

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I doubt you will give a second thought, but for those who might be struggling, I will lead them to a fine resource from a past issue of The Master's Seminary Journal, an article published in the Spring of 2000 by Leslie James Crawford titled "EPHESIANS 1:3-4 AND THE NATURE OF ELECTION".

I will quote the introduction and conclusion, people wanting the detailed exegetical analysis can click on the link above for the full article.

Ephesians 1:3-4 highlights the very important doctrine of election, but the passage is not without interpretive challenges that relate to that doctrine. An examination of individual words and phrases within the section reflects whether it supports the teaching of corporate or individual election. The two verses are part of a doxology that occupies 1:3-14 and emphasizes God’s activity in benefiting His people. Various words and phrases within the doxology that contribute toward a correct understanding of election are “He chose,” “ He predestined ,” “us,” “in Christ,” “holy,” “blameless,” “with every spiritual blessing,” and “in the heavenly places.” An examination of those leads to the conclusion that God in eternity past selected certain individuals to receive a comprehensive spiritual package that includes justification and adoption. The two verses rule out the position of corporate election and support an individual, unconditional view of election.

The subject of election ha s been a controversial one in the history of the church.1 Two opposing viewpoints have traditionally dominated the debate: unconditional, individual election (norm ally associated with a Calvinistic theology) and conditional individual election (normally associated with an Arminian theology). This scenario is changing and a third view is becoming increasingly popular.

The last four decades have brought an increasing number of books that advocate a corporate view on the subject of election.2 The view first denies individual election to salvation and then teaches that all instances w here individuals are chosen in Scripture are appointments to service. A Christian is only elect by virtue of Christ’s election, not on account of a pre-temporal choice by God out of the mass of fallen humanity. It is at the point of conversion, i.e., a believer’s incorporation into the church, that election could be said to apply to any individual.

Though the topic of election is controversial in theological debate, it is crucial to a theological understanding of salvation. On e cannot divorce an understanding of election from a correct view of God since God is the agent who does the choosing. Likewise, it is impossible to separate an understanding of election from one’s view of man since he is the object being chosen. God and man are defined in part by the definition given to election, which makes this subject of prime importance.

A proper comprehension of election is also critical to evangelism,3 which is a primary task of the church. One’s view of election defines the natures of preaching and conversion, and so again the importance of a correct understanding cannot be overstated. In addition, the issue of eternal security has its roots in the ground of election and the relative parts played by God and man in it. All of these combined demand a true biblical comprehension of the elements of election.

Proponents of the corporate understanding of election use Ephesians 1:3-4 to support their position. The following discussion explores the nature of election in Ephesians 1:3-4 by analyzing the exegetical data of the passage in its context and paying special attention to key terms related to election, so that a clear picture of Paul’s understanding of election may result. A determination of whether either the corporate or the individual position can be sustained biblically will then be possible.

<sniped exegetical content mostly because Hebrew and Greek words will not copy properly from pdf on my current setup>

Summarizing Paul’s Understanding of Election

It is now possible to summarize Paul’s understanding of election as expressed by Ephesians 1:3-4. God, in eternity past, for no other reason than His own design and will, selected certain individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity to be the recipients of a comprehensive spiritual package, which include s their justification and adoption. This is an action totally free on God’s part, without any external influence, which is ultimately purpose d to bring praise to Himself, particularly to His grace.

Election, viewed as foreordination, also guarantees the destiny of the elect, with particular reference to adoption. Every elect person is adopted into God’s family with full filial position and privileges. The historical realization of eternal election is the mystical union of the elect with Christ and only in this relationship do the elect receive the accompanying spiritual blessing s also contained in their election.

There are no preconditions to election, such as a person’s foreseen faith or meritorious life. In fact, the goal of election is to provide the necessary spiritual condition for a sinner to have acceptance with God. Paul refers to the elect as those who have already benefited from their election, but God views their condition prior to all that His activity will produce. The objects of election are unbelievers, who will become believers on account of their election. In all of this, God is supreme, sovereign, and Savior.​

IF a person only takes time to read the article in it's entirety, it might do some good. We'll see...

If individual predestination was true, surely Jesus would have spoken about it. Or even taught about it substantially. But He just didn't. There just isn't sufficient context. I just don't see how 4 verses from Ephesians 1 - plus some random verses here and there in the Scripture - could add up to anything credible to explain individual predestination.

Many people see the word "elect" through modern language and logic, and even produce doctrine to support their theology. But "elect" in the Scripture is a word of humility. It is the way people use words during biblical times (2000 to 3000 year ago), that's all - there is nothing theological behind it. Back then, even though people made a conscious choice to repent and turn to God, however, they humbly say that God chose them. Back then, it would be arrogant to say that they choose God -- which would sound like they put themselves above God and choose Him. Instead they said the almighty and merciful God choose them. Today we don't speak this way anymore, hence many people fail to comprehend the spirit of the word "elect", and (mis)interpret it literally. Translated words from Greek to English does not tell us the spirit or context of the original words.

Back then, Christians and Jews were not the only ones who used humble terms when speaking about God. Many ancient eastern orthodox religions did too. Ancient civilizations were much more defferent and fearful towards divine elements, they prayed for heaven or deities favors for good harvests, for example. Today, due to progress in science and technology, it is obvious this attitude has changed. And as people change, languages change too. Some of the ways we use God's name now, whether in movies or daily conversations, would be unthinkable or even considered heretic in biblical times.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Is there such a thing as arbitrary predestination and does being predestined mean that you will end up the way you were predestined? Is that the right understanding of biblical predestination?












I come to think of three passages in the Bible.

Matthew 18:21-34

The Lord takes on himself the dept of his slave, forgiving him. Then the slave won't forgive his fellow slave. When the Lord hears this He retracts the forgiveness and reinstalls the dept. Could it be said that this slave was predestined to salvation/freedom from dept, he was forgiven, but in the end he himself had to pay.

2 Kings 20:1-

Hezekia is given a word of God by the prophet that he will die. But when the Lord hears the prayers and sees the tears of Hezekia He changes His mind and adds 15 years to his life. Could it be said that Hezekia was predestined to die, but the Lord was willing to change that?

1 Samuel 9

You also have Saul who was crowned king and elected to get rid of the philistines. Wasn't he predestinated for this, yet it was David who conquered the philistines.

15 Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, 16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me.”

These are my thoughts. What do you think?

A simple understanding from up top the mountain.

All that God has chosen
will come to him.

Others
will have no desire.

M-Bob
 
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Chris V++

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A simple understanding from up top the mountain.

All that God has chosen
will come to him.

Others
will have no desire.

M-Bob

What about babies,toddlers, and the mentally handicapped? What's the Calvinist perspective on their fate?
 
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BBAS 64

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What about babies,toddlers, and the mentally handicapped? What's the Calvinist perspective on their fate?


Good day, Chris

God is a merciful God, they are saved though the grace of God though the redemptive work of the Cross by his Son Jesus. Just like every body else.

In Him,


Bill
 
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misput

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There just isn't sufficient context. I just don't see how 4 verses from Ephesians 1 - plus some random verses here and there in the Scripture - could add up to anything credible to explain individual predestination.
That is because there is nothing credible about predestination.
 
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A simple understanding from up top the mountain.

All that God has chosen
will come to him.

Others
will have no desire.

M-Bob

I'm of the belief that every man is chosen by Christ through the cross, his death was for every single person, just like every man was “chosen“ by the fall of Adam. I believe God is calling every man to repent and be saved.
 
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BBAS 64

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Hello @BBAS64

In the first ten verses, Paul was giving praises for the people at Ephesians; there is no basis to take the word Saints to mean anything more than praising them for their faith.


Good Day, Roman2819

The word saint here is an adjective describes who they are ontological "most holy things", not what they do, The letter is to them "most holy things"


The first 10 verses should be read as part of chapter 1,2,and 3, which would be 80 to 90 verses in total. All these should be read in context, and if we do so, we will see that Paul said God predestine the Jews first, then the Gentiles, and through Christ, these two group of people were now one in God's eyes. Everyone now have access to redemption if they repent in Christ. It was no ore only Jews were saved while Gentiles were excluded.

Agreed the immediate context is what I was referring

The following will surprise you:

Many people see the word "elect" to mean God choose people on individual basis. But "elect" in the Scripture is a word of humility. During biblical times ( 2000 to 3000 year ago), even though people made a conscious choice to repent and turn to God, yet they humbly say that God chose them. Back then, it would be arrogant to say that they choose God -- which would sound like they put themselves above God and choose Him. Instead they said the almighty and merciful God choose them. Today we don't speak this way anymore, hence many people fail to comprehend the spirit of the word "elect", and (mis)interpret it literally. Translated words from Greek to English does not tell us the spirit or context of the original words.

Back then, Christians and Jews were not he only ones who used humble terms when speaking about God. Many ancient eastern orthodox religions did too. This is something that we do not practice now; it is obvious that people today are less efferent and less fearful towards divine elements, compared to 1000 or 3000. years ago, and this is partly due to progress in science and technology. As people's attitude change, languages change too. Some of the ways we use God's name now, whether in movies or daily conversations, would be unthinkable or even considered heretic in biblical times.


I am looking with little luck to find any greek NT information concordance, or geek word primary usage understanding to support this understanding... I do understand the notion of the reality of the action of Gods election would cause use to be humble before him for his Grace to us expressed in his election of us. Certainly we see that in the nation of Israel being the chosen people of God in the face of other nations whom God did not choose.


If individual predestination was true, surely Jesus would have spoken about it. Or even taught about it substantially. But He just didn't. There just isn't sufficient context. I just don't see how 10 verses from Ephesians 1 - plus some random verses here and there in the Scripture - could add up to anything credible to explain individual predestination.


How much scripture does it take to make something true?? I expect that you hold to the trinity as expressed at Nicaea. Do you hold that doctrine to same litmus test, if you did you would have to reject that out right. What about the virgin birth....

In Him,

Bill
 
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