Predestination vs Free Will

[Neostarwcc]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

 

[JohnB445]

I haven't really fully looked into this. My first guess is we all set our own destiny, and that throughout our lifetime God will try to bring us to him either through people sharing the gospel, or some other means. That everyone has the capability to receive Christ as savior, but people just reject him.

But if predestination is true, then I really wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Not David]

If predestination is true, then what does it matter what I do? It was already written.

 

[Oldmantook]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

You are correct. Scripture states both. Our Western Greek linear thought process though does not allow for both - despite what the Bible states. Another example would be that the Hebrews whose thought process differs from the Greek had no problem with whether Pharaoh hardened his own heart or whether God hardened Pharaoh's heart as Scripture states both facts are true. Since the Bible states both, I have to go with predestination AND free will.

 

[peregrinus2017]

St. John Cassian wrote:

"For how God works all things in us and yet everything can be ascribed to free will, cannot be fully grasped by the mind and reason of man."

 

[redleghunter]

If predestination is true, then what does it matter what I do? It was already written.

Do you read the end of books before reading the rest of it?

 

[redleghunter]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

Human beings freely choose according to the Father or father they serve.

 

[redleghunter]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

A potential answer is in Acts 2:

22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. (NASB)

And in Acts chapter 4:

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (NASB)

And we should not forget God does not tempt us:

James 1:

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. (NASB)

So what’s going on here?

 

[redleghunter]

You are correct. Scripture states both. Our Western Greek linear thought process though does not allow for both - despite what the Bible states. Another example would be that the Hebrews whose thought process differs from the Greek had no problem with whether Pharaoh hardened his own heart or whether God hardened Pharaoh's heart as Scripture states both facts are true. Since the Bible states both, I have to go with predestination AND free will.

What we know of Pharoah is that he was already a jerk.

He was just freely choosing the master he served—Satan. Who is also a jerk and a loser.

 

[klutedavid]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

Gentiles were grafted into their salvation but Gentiles can also be severed again from salvation.

Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I think both operate in some sense. God knows our future, just as He knows what we need before we ask Him. But we are also responsible for our own actions.

For example God may see such and such a thief breaking into a certain property at 3am local time, ninth December 2068. In that sense the thief is predestined to "break through and steal" at that particular point in the future.

But the thief will also be willing to break through and steal at that particular point in the future. What other factors might come into it are many and varied - he may have had a criminal upbringing - family life might have been terrible - he might be starving and need to eat - the householder didn't bother to lock the door etc. That's why we have to leave the judgement to God - we just don't know all the circumstances.

But he was predestined simply by virtue of God's eternal foresight. He was also willing by his own temporal choice.

The error we make is that sometimes we think or assume we're one of the predestined elect, whereas we don't know what willing decisions we might make in our unforeseen future which may well destroy our hopes of eternal life.

 

[klutedavid]

I think both operate in some sense. God knows our future, just as He knows what we need before we ask Him. But we are also responsible for our own actions.

For example God may see such and such a thief breaking into a certain property at 3am local time, ninth December 2068. In that sense the thief is predestined to "break through and steal" at that particular point in the future.

But the thief will also be willing to break through and steal at that particular point in the future. What other factors might come into it are many and varied - he may have had a criminal upbringing - family life might have been terrible - he might be starving and need to eat - the householder didn't bother to lock the door etc. That's why we have to leave the judgement to God - we just don't know all the circumstances.

But he was predestined simply by virtue of God's eternal foresight. He was also willing by his own temporal choice.

The error we make is that sometimes we think or assume we're one of the predestined elect, whereas we don't know what willing decisions we might make in our unforeseen future which may well destroy our hopes of eternal life.

Yes, we all stand by grace in Christ and anyone of us can harden our heart towards Jesus.

We are not saved because we are predestined to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was predestined from eternity, sent to reconcile us to God. You can choose to accept or reject that reconciliation. God is not a dictator, choose you this day whom you will serve.

 

[Oldmantook]

What we know of Pharoah is that he was already a jerk.

He was just freely choosing the master he served—Satan. Who is also a jerk and a loser.

Yeah he was probably was but the point is Scripture BOTH states that he hardened his own heart AND God hardened his heart. Which came first the chicken or the egg?

 

[redleghunter]

Yeah he was probably was but the point is Scripture BOTH states that he hardened his own heart AND God hardened his heart. Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Good question. Isaiah 14:27 is probably the right answer. Job 42:2 too.

 

[Oldmantook]

Good question. Isaiah 14:27 is probably the right answer. Job 42:2 too.

If those are the only scriptures that address the matter then I would agree with you. The problem is - they ain't. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn 12:32
God's will is to draw all men to himself. Will he not sovereignly accomplish what he purposes to do? If God's will is to draw all men to him, why aren't all men saved? After all, it's God's will isn't it?

 

[redleghunter]

If those are the only scriptures that address the matter then I would agree with you. The problem is - they ain't. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn 12:32
God's will is to draw all men to himself. Will he not sovereignly accomplish what he purposes to do? If God's will is to draw all men to him, why aren't all men saved? After all, it's God's will isn't it?

Good questions. God also exhorts all men to seek Him. But many don’t. In fact Paul says no one seeks Him. Figure that one out.

And John 12:32?

Only a few verses later:

37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”h

39For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says:

40“He has blinded their eyes

and hardened their hearts,

so that they cannot see with their eyes,

and understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.”i

41Isaiah said these things because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about Him.42Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. 43For they loved praise from men more than praise from God. (NASB)

And I believe the operative of John 12:32 is the Gospel. That is God’s drawing all. Meaning many are called to hear the Gospel but it is not given to all to have the ears to hear. Aka many are called and few are chosen.

I think the bottom line is all of mankind is by default headed to the Lake of Fire just by our fallen state. Yet God in His great Mercy and Love saves some. This is Grace.

 

[Oldmantook]

And I believe the operative of John 12:32 is the Gospel. That is God’s drawing all. Meaning many are called to hear the Gospel but it is not given to all to have the ears to hear. Aka many are called and few are chosen.

I think the bottom line is all of mankind is by default headed to the Lake of Fire just by our fallen state. Yet God in His great Mercy and Love saves some. This is Grace.

John 12:32 has a greater emphasis then most realize. The Greek word in this verse is helkysō typically translated as draw. It can also be translated as drag as when fishermen drag/draw their nets in. God is the chief fisher of men who will drag all men to himself. If God is indeed sovereign and omnipotent, which he is, it is not difficult for him at all to accomplish his stated purpose, which is to drag/draw ALL men to himself.

 

[com7fy8]

If predestination is true, then what does it matter what I do? It was already written.

That would not be scriptural predestination.

Because predestination includes how we who trust in Christ will be conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

This is included in our destiny > all God's love will do in our nature so we become and love more and more like Jesus. So, this is what love destines to become of a person.

So, this matters.

And we do make choices. And we each shall reap so much more than whatever we have been sowing > Galatians 6:7-8.

So, it is not fair, either way. If we sin, we suffer much more than our deeds might deserve; and if we obey Jesus we get and keep discovering so much more and better than we have thought we were choosing; we do what we do and then get better than our good deeds deserve.

So, in any case, I would say do not depend only on what your own free will can get, but trust God to do all His word means, in us . . . with us keeping on discovering so more and better than any of us now can know to choose and discipline our own selves to get.

 

[Bobber]

What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

I don't believe in predestination that way Calvinists define it. It can't be rejected as an untruth for Eph 1:5 uses the term. The question is what exactly does it mean? I go with the understanding which is God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance and that means A double L all men on the earth.

There is a way I believe one can know even outside of aruging scritpure and that is what do we see clearly obvious through creation and the CONSCIENCE that God has given every man. The awareness of good vs evil, or what is right and wrong one has within them from birth even without revelation of a law. Deep down in one's spirit, their consciousnesses gets red flagged by their conscience if they've committed a basic wrong.

All KNOW deep down within themselves that by telling and demanding someone to do something (like repent) knowing all the time they couldn't and were born in such a way that they couldn't and going ahead and punishing such a person WOULD NOT BE JUST. We know this by the conscience God gave us so in my opinion that should tell you right there.

 

[com7fy8]

telling and demanding someone to do something (like repent) knowing all the time they couldn't

God spoke for His creatures to be. Creatures could not bring their own selves to be.

God does tell us to do things which we are incapable of getting our own selves to do.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

And God in us is the One who changes us to succeed in all He means by His word.

His word accomplishes what He means . . . which He brings to pass > Isaiah 55:11.