Predestination - The Truth

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BBAS 64

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cg1970 said:
There is a thread that has been going on for several days concerning “predestination”. There is a belief among those who profess to know God that he predestinates some of his creation to end up in hell. That belief goes on to add that some are also predestined, to end up in Heaven. To me, the concept of God creating children with the premeditated purpose of sending them to destruction is very disturbing. The scenario would go something like this: God, who creates all of us to be his children, creates some of his children, with the intent of sending them to Hell, where they would suffer eternal pain and damnation. I say that is a bunch of bunk. I don’t care what your interpretation of scripture is. IT IS WRONG! It goes against the very nature of the loving God I have come to know and love. God does NOT create to cause pain and destroy. He creates to nurture and love. To those who believe that our God would actually do such a thing show that they do not know Him at all, and they demonstrate a general lack of wisdom. They are either taking scripture out of context, or miss-interpreting it all together. IT IS NOT TRUE! Someone mentioned that there are some things in scripture that constitute a bitter pill to swallow. I say that with god, there are NO bitter pills! You can quote scripture all you want. It will not sway me. I am defending the God I love so dearly. The truth is that every one of us is predestined to go to Heaven. The predestination is a true predestination, but it is conditional. The condition is that we accept the Gift of Salvation through Jesus. That is my statement. It is absolutely true! PERIOD!

Good Day, CG 1970

We will quote it, you will run from it because it does not fit your view. As such you treat it as foolishness..

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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cygnusx1 said:
roughly translated:

"you can quote scripture all you like , but I will not listen , if the Bible doesn't match up with my idea of God , then it is wrong " "lalala lalalal lalal lalalala lallallalaalalllaa"

Good Day, Cygnusx1

"Rough" :confused: I say you are spot on.:thumbsup:

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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elijah115

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cg1970 said:
NO! Those who truely know him will agree with this thread. It is not a fantasy. If you do not agree with this, then you do not know him at all. You need to rise above traditionalism and see truth through wisdom.

Didnt anybody tell you that the evidence that you know God is whether you love your neighbour as yourself, not whether you agree with cg1970 on a theological point.
 
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cg1970

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JimfromOhio said:
Oh I know Him very well. It amazed me that Idoltary is still happening. Creating God in our own image in a fantasy of who God really is when the Bible showed us the real meaning of God. All I can say is that is very sad.

You only know Him by what is written about him. If you think for one minute that God would predestine anybody to go to hell, you are insulting Him. You are insulting his character. No, you are the one who is sad. For you know him only by how he was perceived in scripture, not by how he truely is in Spirit.
 
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cygnusx1

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Cygnusx1

"Rough" :confused: I say you are spot on.:thumbsup:

Peace to u,

Bill

Hi Bill ........... I see this test daily ........... are we in subjection to God's word , or do we play fast and lose with it .

The primary danger with selectivising scripture or Bible passages is that it is more than likely one ends up with another God , an Idol!

and we are warned near the end of The Bible to keep ourselves from idols.

Many want a God who is fluffy , a cuddly bear , a pacifier , a pal , so often what is gotten is an 'anesthetic' to put oneself to sleep.
 
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JimfromOhio

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cg1970 said:
You only know Him by what is written about him. If you think for one minute that God would predestine anybody to go to hell, you are insulting Him. You are insulting his character. No, you are the one who is sad. For you know him only by how he was perceived in scripture, not by how he truely is in Spirit.

Me? I have studied His Character over the years. May I should say "you are insulting Him", but I cannot because only God will convict you of that through the Holy Spirit. Don't be surprised that one day, the Holy Spirit will lead you to a difficult situation to wake you up spiritually and stop imaging God in your own fantasy.
 
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Espada

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cg1970 said:
You only know Him by what is written about him. If you think for one minute that God would predestine anybody to go to hell, you are insulting Him. You are insulting his character. No, you are the one who is sad. For you know him only by how he was perceived in scripture, not by how he truely is in Spirit.

Then clearly Paul went to Hell

Ro 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Shall we add Moses to the list for good measure

Ex 33:19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

John should probably join the list as well

John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.”

But of course this is just God's word and isn't important in looking at the nature of Godafter all you wouldn't agree that:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
(2 Tim 3:16)

So you say that God has given everyone the chance to know Jesus! How about all those who lived before Christ, or who live(d) in countries where his name is not known? How has he given them an equal chance? Surely, they are predestined for salvation by the fact that God put them in the wrong place at the wrong time. How is that different to what I am saying.

If God calls everyone as you say and some reject him does that not mean he has failed?

Here are some words by John Piper on Romans 8



Verse 29: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son." What does "foreknew" mean? Some have taken it to mean that God simply foresees who will believe on him and these are the ones he predestines to be like Jesus. But this assumes two things that are not true. One is that the faith God foresees is ultimately and decisively our work, not his work. In other words, the point of this interpretation is that God does not cause our faith, he only foresees the faith which we cause. Now this is not what the Bible teaches, not elsewhere (Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Matthew 16:17), nor here in the context. When Paul says in Romans 8:30, "Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified," he means all the called are justified. But to be justified we must believe (Romans 5:1). So he is saying all those who are called believe and are justified. But how can he say ALL who are called believe? The reason, as I tried to show in the exposition of "called" in verse 28, is that the call is the powerful work of God to bring about what he demands. It's an effective call. It's a call that creates what it commands. It's a call like "Lazarus, come forth!" and the dead man lives. So the point is, believing for justification is not some thing I do on my own. God enables me. God empowers me. I must do it. Believing is something I do. But my doing is a gift of God. I do not take ultimate credit for it. I thank God for it. I am saved by sovereign grace from first to last.
 
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elijah115

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, CG 1970

We will quote it, you will run from it because it does not fit your view. As such you treat it as foolishness..

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Peace to u,

Bill

all this talk and no discernment.. maybe his read the whole of the bible... understands the context, understands that Christians will sometimes present copy and paste jobs as gospel, and so is not sway by so-called "words of faith"..... You talk about the Holy Ghost.... Are you the Holy Ghost??? when was the last time you prayed before you clicked "Submit Reply"???
 
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BBAS 64

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elijah115 said:
all this talk and no discernment.. maybe his read the whole of the bible... understands the context, understands that Christians will sometimes present copy and paste jobs as gospel, and so is not sway by so-called "words of faith"..... You talk about the Holy Ghost.... Are you the Holy Ghost??? when was the last time you prayed before you clicked "Submit Reply"???

Good Day, Elijah115

When some one starts with this as a premise:

You can quote scripture all you want. It will not sway me

Your point is some what mute, to say that "maybe" this and "maybe" that, whith out proof of such is crazy IMHO.

What is clear the Op has no knowledge of the use of the term "predestine" in the text and is unclear of it's usage in Scripture or it's definition.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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cg1970

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cygnusx1 said:
roughly translated:

"you can quote scripture all you like , but I will not listen , if the Bible doesn't match up with my idea of God , then it is wrong " "lalala lalalal lalal lalalala lallallalaalalllaa"

No, it is NOT my idea of God. It is FACT. It is TRUTH! You who throw all wisdom away and rely on the scriptural interpretation of others need to learn to think for yourselves. You are so imersed in the written word, you are blinded by it, and therefore the truth is rubbish to you. YOU DON'T KNOW HIM! You could not possibly know him. There was a recent thread that went on for months concerning the question: "Does God send babies to Hell?" What foolishness! You people are insulting God! STOP and THINK! Would you create a child, your own child, for the purpose of sending that child to Hell? Well, my Father in Heaven would not either!
 
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JimfromOhio

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cg1970 said:
No, it is NOT my idea of God.

Case Closed. This proves imagination, image of God, idolatry basically means worshiping something other than God described in the Bible. In Idolatry is more about our thoughts of God in our inner hearts, minds and souls. The seduction of idolatry have been very strong and very successful since the days of the Old Testament books. Throughout the Bible, God have warned people to be careful of idolatry because we could slip into it almost without noticing it. Idolatry is a false notion that causes spiritual errors in thinking or reasoning. False theologies are becoming dangerous to the Christian world because our hearts (core) are seated deep within our minds where they pollutes our emotions (desires), the intellect (imaginations) and the will (purposes). Human society is built upon a balance of personal interests. Our hearts is the place of conscience. Our hearts is the part of our being where WE desire, deliberate, and decide. We just have to know what God wants (not what we want) and if we don't glorify correctly, our spiritual actions will be worthless. This is a real danger because someone may overlook self-interest motive for human conduct and go on serving our own interests under a disguise of godliness. And that is a mistake that we all cannot afford to make. In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT)
 
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elijah115 said:
i'm mostly in agree with everything that has been said in this thread... preaching predestination is wrong, and weakens the Gospel...

No. Preaching predestination CAN be wrong if one's understanding of predestination is defective. Since Predestination is a Biblical doctrine and we are required to make known the whole counsel of God then it is beholden upon us to include predestination in our preaching of the gospel. Needless to say that predestination as understood within the context of the 'Pinnochio Syndrome' ('God does absolutely everything and humans just tag along for the ride') is woefully defective.

Simonline.
 
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cygnusx1

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cg1970 said:
No, it is NOT my idea of God. It is FACT. It is TRUTH! You who throw all wisdom away and rely on the scriptural interpretation of others need to learn to think for yourselves. You are so imersed in the written word, you are blinded by it, and therefore the truth is rubbish to you. YOU DON'T KNOW HIM! You could not possibly know him. There was a recent thread that went on for months concerning the question: "Does God send babies to Hell?" What foolishness! You people are insulting God! STOP and THINK! Would you create a child, your own child, for the purpose of sending that child to Hell? Well, my Father in Heaven would not either!

keep up the ranting , it looks like it is time for your bottle :D
 
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cg1970

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cygnusx1 said:
keep up the ranting , it looks like it is time for your bottle :D

Oh yes, I am ranting allright. But at least I have a mind of my own and do not rely on the defective interpretation of others. Please understand. I am defending one I know and love. This is not idolotry, although I do idolize Jesus.
 
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cg1970

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JimfromOhio said:
Case Closed. This proves imagination, image of God, idolatry basically means worshiping something other than God described in the Bible. In Idolatry is more about our thoughts of God in our inner hearts, minds and souls. The seduction of idolatry have been very strong and very successful since the days of the Old Testament books. Throughout the Bible, God have warned people to be careful of idolatry because we could slip into it almost without noticing it. Idolatry is a false notion that causes spiritual errors in thinking or reasoning. False theologies are becoming dangerous to the Christian world because our hearts (core) are seated deep within our minds where they pollutes our emotions (desires), the intellect (imaginations) and the will (purposes). Human society is built upon a balance of personal interests. Our hearts is the place of conscience. Our hearts is the part of our being where WE desire, deliberate, and decide. We just have to know what God wants (not what we want) and if we don't glorify correctly, our spiritual actions will be worthless. This is a real danger because someone may overlook self-interest motive for human conduct and go on serving our own interests under a disguise of godliness. And that is a mistake that we all cannot afford to make. In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT)

You are not exercizing sound judgement here. Instead of looking at scripture, look to the heavens, look at God. Also, I would like you to think about one thing. If you really brlieve that God would predestine some people to go to Hell, what if you were one of them? What if your child was one of them? What if your mother was one of them? Do you really have a concept of what Hell is like, or are you one of those who think that it is a state of mind? Put yourself in hell as one of those who was predestined to go there and then ask yourself WHY? Why me? What did I do to deserve this that I was chosen for this before I was even born? I will be here and suffer the pain of Hell FOREVER because WHY? There is no way out, no second chance. I was predestined that no matter how I lived my life, no matter how I treated others, no matter what I did, there was nothing I could do to change my destiny of Hell?? Now, open your heart and your mind. Do you really think that God would do this? The God who does EVERYTHING based on love?
 
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BBAS 64

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cg1970 said:
No, it is NOT my idea of God. It is FACT. It is TRUTH! You who throw all wisdom away and rely on the scriptural interpretation of others need to learn to think for yourselves. You are so imersed in the written word, you are blinded by it, and therefore the truth is rubbish to you. YOU DON'T KNOW HIM! You could not possibly know him. There was a recent thread that went on for months concerning the question: "Does God send babies to Hell?" What foolishness! You people are insulting God! STOP and THINK! Would you create a child, your own child, for the purpose of sending that child to Hell? Well, my Father in Heaven would not either!

Good day, Cg1970

Blinded by the written word. "Scripture".^_^

Seems that you have some new revelation, that is not the word of the Creator of all that is. :(

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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cg1970 said:
You are so imersed in the written word, you are blinded by it, and therefore the truth is rubbish to you. YOU DON'T KNOW HIM! You could not possibly know him.

There you have it, folks. You cannot possibly know God through His written Word. Now drink the spirit juice and pray to that there comet... I'll see you in eternity. :wave:
 
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cg1970

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Paleoconservatarian said:
You cannot possibly know God through His written Word.

You are so correct. You can know everything that is written about him, but in order to truely know Him, you must know Him in the spirit. For, in the spirit, you will learn more, and go beyond that which is written. It is like reading a biography. As for the person who is the subject of the biography, you can learn everything that is written about him, but to truely know that person, you would need to live with him, or at least associate or hang out with him. After reading the biography, you do not know that person, you only know about him. Reading the Bible is the same way. You only learn ABOUT God.
 
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cygnusx1

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The Sovereignty God and Human Freewill
"We like God reigning in a universal way, as in keeping hurricanes out to sea, or keeping the planets in their fixed orbits. We especially like God keeping traffic moving smoothly as we go to work. In these situations, we endure God on His throne, and if He obediently sits on this throne, built by our egocentric imaginations, we will lift holy hands singing, "Our God Reigns!""




*how many Christians are hypocritical regarding The Sovereignty of God .......:doh:
 
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