Predestination - The Truth

[cg1970]

There is a thread that has been going on for several days concerning “predestination”. There is a belief among those who profess to know God that he predestinates some of his creation to end up in hell. That belief goes on to add that some are also predestined, to end up in Heaven. To me, the concept of God creating children with the premeditated purpose of sending them to destruction is very disturbing. The scenario would go something like this: God, who creates all of us to be his children, creates some of his children, with the intent of sending them to Hell, where they would suffer eternal pain and damnation. I say that is a bunch of bunk. I don’t care what your interpretation of scripture is. IT IS WRONG! It goes against the very nature of the loving God I have come to know and love. God does NOT create to cause pain and destroy. He creates to nurture and love. To those who believe that our God would actually do such a thing show that they do not know Him at all, and they demonstrate a general lack of wisdom. They are either taking scripture out of context, or miss-interpreting it all together. IT IS NOT TRUE! Someone mentioned that there are some things in scripture that constitute a bitter pill to swallow. I say that with god, there are NO bitter pills! You can quote scripture all you want. It will not sway me. I am defending the God I love so dearly. The truth is that every one of us is predestined to go to Heaven. The predestination is a true predestination, but it is conditional. The condition is that we accept the Gift of Salvation through Jesus. That is my statement. It is absolutely true! PERIOD!

 

[epitamyofthe9]

so trure
i mean what kinda god would create us gust to send us to hell
its crazy!

 

[Iollain]

God, through foreknowledge, knows who His are and has since before the earth began. He knows who His children are, and He knows who His children are not. But you will notice that He is very passionate, and when things happen He gets very upset, the Holy Spirit can be grieved, God dispite His foreknowledge has feelings that are very strong. Just some things to think about.

 

[GraceInHim]

very true

 

[cg1970]

God, through foreknowledge, knows who His are and has since before the earth began. He knows who His children are, and He knows who His children are not. But you will notice that He is very passionate, and when things happen He gets very upset, the Holy Spirit can be grieved, God dispite His foreknowledge has feelings that are very strong. Just some things to think about.

Think about this: ALL OF US ARE GOD'S CHILDREN!

 

[Iollain]

That's not what the Bible says, some are children of satan:




Jhn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.


Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.


Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Jhn 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.


Jhn 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?


Jhn 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Iollain]

We however do not have foreknowledge and are to assume that everyone is God's child...cause they just may be.

 

[calidog]

we were all the children of satan at one time

 

[justinstout]

There's a huge difference between predestination and the simple concept of foreknowledge. Of course God knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him, but that certainly does not mean that God stripped us of our free will and made the decision for us.

 

[elijah115]

i'm mostly in agree with everything that has been said in this thread... preaching predestination is wrong, and weakens the Gospel...

 

[Espada]

I believe in predestination and calling, why because it is a bitter pill to swallow, no! Because it is Biblical Read Romans 8:28,29 I will quote here the NIV for your convenience:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

According to that passage it is clear to me from the English translation at least that we are predestined and called. Notice Paul uses foreknowledge seperately to predestined, they are not the same thing. Wait, maybe there is a problem here with the translator being Calvinist, maybe we should look at the Greek to find out what the words actually are.

προορίω - This is defined as to predestine or decide beforehand

How about choosing though, now this is even more interesting





καλέω - To call, invite or summon, the exact meaning depends on the context, your friend would invite you but your king would summon you. Whichever of those you decide fits God (friend or king) he asked you to be with him.


Paul has left no room for doubt here, he used foreknew, predestined and called in the same sentence so we would know that the three are different.

Well if he foreknew us does that mean he called us because of that, no, that would make him a weak God. If you are holding a party, you don't just invite the people you know will come, you invite the people you want. In the same way God has summoned some of us, because he wants us not because we are the only ones who will come. God does not need us, he does not need to choose people because they have chosen him.

Still not convinced?

Ro 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
Ro 9:15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Ro 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Ro 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Ro 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Ro 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”
Ro 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Ro 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Ro 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Ro 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Ro 9:25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
Ro 9:26 and,
“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ”

Pay particular attention to vs 21, 22, & 23 some people will die that the glory of God will be revealed.

But its not fair is it, in our post-modern, liberal society everyone should be equal, everyone should be treated the same. We should all get what we deserve, we all deserve nothing short of death. Yet, God has chosen to spare some of his creation from that fate by the attoning blood of his son - that is what is not fair, that Christ had to die so that us sinners can have life because we couldn't make it on our own, yet his creation then turns to God and says "why didn't you save the rest as well?" He has given his response through Paul "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”"
Does this mean we shouldn't bother evangelising people because they are chosen or not chosen and our actions make no difference. No, it doesn't, God's chosen method for bringing people to him is by evangelism and we should do what he asks of us.

We don't know who is chosen and who isn't so we should regard everyone as being potentially saved so that they have that chance to hear the Gospel.

 

[Espada]

You can quote scripture all you want. It will not sway me.

I did not want to be a Christian, I was not to disimilar to Paul, though I worshipped Science rather than the Law. I was very anti-Christian, I did not go looking for God, as far as I was concerned, he didn't exist. Yet something happened, something amazing, He wanted me, He came looking for me, insignificant little me and the creator of the universe wanted me

Why was that, I don't know, as far as I am aware nobody has ever come to Christ through me, I haven't done anything particularly special since. Yet he still chose me, for which I am etrernally thankful to him.

Right from the begining it was clear to me that he chose me, because it certainly was not the other way around as a result I was born a Calvinist.

 

[Jesus1stKing]

Well said ESPADA, you presented your case well and used scripture for support, in addition you went to the original language to confirm your point. However As much as I strongly agree with what you said I can not agree with the concept of being born a calvinist as a result, unfortunately there are some aspects of calvinisum I do not wholely agree with.

 

[chris414]

There's a huge difference between predestination and the simple concept of foreknowledge. Of course God knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him, but that certainly does not mean that God stripped us of our free will and made the decision for us.

true well said

 

[linssue55]

There is a thread that has been going on for several days concerning “predestination”. There is a belief among those who profess to know God that he predestinates some of his creation to end up in hell. That belief goes on to add that some are also predestined, to end up in Heaven. To me, the concept of God creating children with the premeditated purpose of sending them to destruction is very disturbing. The scenario would go something like this: God, who creates all of us to be his children, creates some of his children, with the intent of sending them to Hell, where they would suffer eternal pain and damnation. I say that is a bunch of bunk. I don’t care what your interpretation of scripture is. IT IS WRONG! It goes against the very nature of the loving God I have come to know and love. God does NOT create to cause pain and destroy. He creates to nurture and love. To those who believe that our God would actually do such a thing show that they do not know Him at all, and they demonstrate a general lack of wisdom. They are either taking scripture out of context, or miss-interpreting it all together. IT IS NOT TRUE! Someone mentioned that there are some things in scripture that constitute a bitter pill to swallow. I say that with god, there are NO bitter pills! You can quote scripture all you want. It will not sway me. I am defending the God I love so dearly. The truth is that every one of us is predestined to go to Heaven. The predestination is a true predestination, but it is conditional. The condition is that we accept the Gift of Salvation through Jesus. That is my statement. It is absolutely true! PERIOD!

Stage Two Of Faith-Rest: Apply a Doctrinal Rationale

A. Foreknowledge: God thought about you in eternity past

B. Predestination: God designed a plan for you in eternity past

C. Election: God chose you for the privileged part of His plan

D. Justification: God can bless you now because you posses His righteousness

E. Glorification: God can bless you forever in heaven

Romans 8:29,30: "For [we know that] whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Christ] might be the firstborn among many brethren. And whom He predestined, these same ones He also elected to privilege, and whom He elected to privilege, these same ones He also justified [declared righteous], and whom he justified, these same ones He also glorified."

God designed a plan for us in eternity past...........BUT our free will comes into play, do we accept it or not? Our free will sometimes over will's the plan the Lord has designed for us. Therefore we reap what we sow.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Are we corrupting our thoughts with our wishful images of God?

 

[cg1970]

Are we corrupting our thoughts with our wishful images of God?

NO! Those who truely know him will agree with this thread. It is not a fantasy. If you do not agree with this, then you do not know him at all. You need to rise above traditionalism and see truth through wisdom.

 

[JimfromOhio]

NO! Those who truely know him will agree with this thread. It is not a fantasy. If you do not agree with this, then you do not know him at all. You need to rise above traditionalism and see truth through wisdom.

Oh I know Him very well. It amazed me that Idoltary is still happening. Creating God in our own image in a fantasy of who God really is when the Bible showed us the real meaning of God. All I can say is that is very sad.

 

[BBAS 64]

There's a huge difference between predestination and the simple concept of foreknowledge. Of course God knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him, but that certainly does not mean that God stripped us of our free will and made the decision for us.

Good day, Justinstout

I guess that would depend on how you define "free-will", so would you be so kind as to define your usage?

Did Abimelech have the option of "freely" choosing sin:

Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Peace to u,
Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

we were all the children of satan at one time

Good day, Calidog

Yes BUT,

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Some are adopted according to the good pleasure of his will before the foundations of the world, in which he has made us accepted in the beloved.


Peace to u,

Bill