A Catholic thought about the doctrine of Predestination.

[Xeno.of.athens]

The doctrine of predestination holds that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world. This belief is based on scriptural passages such as Ephesians 1:4-5, which states that God "chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Additionally, Romans 8:29-30 states that "those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

However, it is important to note that the Catholic Church teaches that predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace" (CCC 600).

In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines certain individuals for salvation, but this predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace.

 

[Jonaitis]

In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines certain individuals for salvation, but this predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace.

Now this could be understood in different ways, would care to elaborate?

If I am not mistaken, though the Catholic Church may teach a sort of predestination, and acknowledge the free agency of man, there remains synergistic undertones in its application to the individual.

A commonly held view among many within the Reformed camp is a doctrine called 'compatibilism,' which takes into account both God's absolute sovereignty and the individual's volitional responsibility in His foreordination of the elect to salvation. Without the Spirit's monergistic activity wholly involved, there is no true efficacy of His decree in the predetermining of anyone. It is at this point where the Catholic doctrine begins to resemble the Arminian doctrine of conditional election.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If I am not mistaken, though the Catholic Church may teach a sort of predestination, and acknowledge the free agency of man, there remains synergistic undertones in its application to the individual.

Catholic teaching refutes the doctrine of synergism, which holds that human beings contribute to their own salvation through their own efforts, by emphasizing that salvation is a gift from God that is received through faith and grace.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that:

• Paragraph 2010: "We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace."
• Paragraph 2016: "The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it."
• Paragraph 2020: "The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism."
• Paragraph 2022: "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, obedient unto death, to reconcile us with God, the Father. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has the power to remove the guilt of original sin and to endow us with the grace of justification."

Catholic teachings underline that salvation is not something that can be earned by human effort, merit or good works, but is a gift of God's grace, offered to human beings through faith in Jesus Christ. And this faith is not a human work, but it is a gift of God too.

 

[Jonaitis]

Catholic teaching refutes the doctrine of synergism, which holds that human beings contribute to their own salvation through their own efforts, by emphasizing that salvation is a gift from God that is received through faith and grace.

If the Catholic teaching is not synergistic, that is, that God's grace and man's free will must work together for personal salvation, then are you suggesting that you believe in the doctrine of total depravity? The doctrine of total depravity necessitates monergism, because man has lost his will to freely choose God as a result of the fall.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If the Catholic teaching is not synergistic, that is, that God's grace and man's free will must work together for personal salvation, then are you suggesting that you believe in the doctrine of total depravity? The doctrine of total depravity necessitates monergism.

The Catholic Church teaches that all humans are created in the image and likeness of God, and that they possess an innate dignity and value as a result (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1703). This means that all humans have the capacity for good and the ability to choose to love and serve God.

The Church also teaches that original sin has damaged this innate dignity, but that it has not destroyed it (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #405). This is known as the "doctrine of the fall."

Scripture references that support this include:

• Genesis 1:27, which states that humans are created in the image of God
• Romans 3:23, which states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
• Romans 5:18, which states that through one man's disobedience many were made sinners

In contrast, the doctrine of total depravity teaches that humans are completely corrupt and incapable of any good actions, and that they are predestined for either salvation or damnation. The Catholic Church rejects this doctrine, as it does not align with the teachings of scripture and the Church.

 

[Jonaitis]

In contrast, the doctrine of total depravity teaches that humans are completely corrupt and incapable of any good actions, and that they are predestined for either salvation or damnation. The Catholic Church rejects this doctrine, as it does not align with the teachings of scripture and the Church.

This is false.

The doctrine of total depravity does not teach that man has no ability to do good at all, but that as a result of the fall, man's whole nature was corrupted or damaged in every part (mind, heart, will, etc), wherein men are incapable wholly and only to those actions that tend to God for their spiritual good. However, we do affirm that men, though corrupted in their nature, can still perform actions of virtue, though with it being stained to some degree by sin. You fell into the very misunderstanding of its name. Total does not mean man is utterly corrupt as without any imago dei left in them.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is false.

The doctrine of total depravity does not teach that man has no ability to do good at all, but that as a result of the fall, man's whole nature was corrupted or damaged in every part (mind, heart, will, etc), wherein men are incapable wholly and only to those actions that tend to God for their spiritual good. However, we do affirm that men, though corrupted in their nature, can still perform actions of virtue, though with it being stained to some degree by sin. You fell into the very misunderstanding of its name. Total does not mean man is utterly corrupt as without any imago dei left in them.

Here's a summary of the doctrine with alleged scripture references that support it.

The doctrine of total depravity, also known as "total inability," is the belief that as a result of the fall of man, human beings are completely corrupted in their nature and unable to choose or do anything good apart from God's grace. This doctrine holds that human nature is so fundamentally flawed that people are unable to choose to follow God or respond to the gospel without the prior work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Scripture references that are often cited to support the doctrine of total depravity include:

• Romans 3:10-12 which states "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
• Ephesians 2:1-3 which states "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath."
• John 6:44 which states " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It is important to note that this doctrine is a cornerstone of Reformed theology and is not shared by all Christian denominations.

 

[Jonaitis]

Here's a summary of the doctrine with alleged scripture references that support it.

The doctrine of total depravity, also known as "total inability," is the belief that as a result of the fall of man, human beings are completely corrupted in their nature and unable to choose or do anything good apart from God's grace. This doctrine holds that human nature is so fundamentally flawed that people are unable to choose to follow God or respond to the gospel without the prior work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Scripture references that are often cited to support the doctrine of total depravity include:

• Romans 3:10-12 which states "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
• Ephesians 2:1-3 which states "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath."
• John 6:44 which states " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It is important to note that this doctrine is a cornerstone of Reformed theology and is not shared by all Christian denominations.

The Canons of Dort
Third and Fourth Heads of Doctrine
Of the Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, and the Manner Thereof​

Article 3

Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil,
dead in sin, and in bondage thereto, and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor
willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation.

Article 4

There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge
of God, of natural things, and of the differences between good and evil, and discovers some regard for virtue, good
order in society, and for maintaining an orderly external deportment. But so far is this light of nature from being
sufficient to bring him to a saving knowledge of God and to true conversion, that he is incapable of using it aright
even in things natural and civil. Nay, further, this light, such as it is, man in various ways renders wholly polluted
and holds it in unrighteousness, by doing which he becomes inexcusable before God.

Edit: If I can remember where Calvin discusses this in his institutes, I would be happy to post it if you need me to.

 

[BBAS 64]

The Canons of Dort
Third and Fourth Heads of Doctrine
Of the Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, and the Manner Thereof​

Article 3

Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil,
dead in sin, and in bondage thereto, and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor
willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation.

Article 4

There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge
of God, of natural things, and of the differences between good and evil, and discovers some regard for virtue, good
order in society, and for maintaining an orderly external deportment. But so far is this light of nature from being
sufficient to bring him to a saving knowledge of God and to true conversion, that he is incapable of using it aright
even in things natural and civil. Nay, further, this light, such as it is, man in various ways renders wholly polluted
and holds it in unrighteousness, by doing which he becomes inexcusable before God.

Edit: If I can remember where Calvin discusses this in his institutes, I would be happy to post it if you need me to.

Good Day,

Just to add the Baptist confession as another Historical point of reference.

CHAP. IX. Of Free Will. 1. God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice; that it is 169neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.

2. Man in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power, to will, and to do that 170which was good, and well-pleasing to God; but yet 171was mutable, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost 172all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, 173and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to 174convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace 175he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him 176freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his 177remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The Will of Man is made 178perfectly, and immutably free to good alone, in the state of Glory only.

166 Joh. 1.18. 167 Col. 1.21. Gal. 5.17. 168 Joh. 16.8. Ps. 110.3. Luk. 1.74.75. 169 Mat. 17.12. Jam. 1 14. Deut. 30.19. 170 Eccl. 7.29. 171 Gen. 3.6. 172 Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7. 173 Eph. 2.1.5. 174 Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44. 175 Col. 1.13. Joh. 8.36. 176 Phil. 2.13. 177 Rom. 7.15.18,19 21.23. 178 Eph. 4.13. 1

 

[Jonaitis]

Good Day,

Just to add the Baptist confession as another Historical point of reference.

CHAP. IX. Of Free Will. 1. God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice; that it is 169neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.

2. Man in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power, to will, and to do that 170which was good, and well-pleasing to God; but yet 171was mutable, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost 172all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, 173and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to 174convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace 175he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him 176freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his 177remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The Will of Man is made 178perfectly, and immutably free to good alone, in the state of Glory only.

166 Joh. 1.18. 167 Col. 1.21. Gal. 5.17. 168 Joh. 16.8. Ps. 110.3. Luk. 1.74.75. 169 Mat. 17.12. Jam. 1 14. Deut. 30.19. 170 Eccl. 7.29. 171 Gen. 3.6. 172 Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7. 173 Eph. 2.1.5. 174 Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44. 175 Col. 1.13. Joh. 8.36. 176 Phil. 2.13. 177 Rom. 7.15.18,19 21.23. 178 Eph. 4.13. 1

I didn't quote the Confession, because the poster thinks that only Presbyterians and Congregationalists are/can be Calvinists/Reformed (based on a comment made in another thread of his). He clearly doesn't know that most Protestant denominations started off as Reformed in doctrine and practice, including our Baptist forefathers.

 

[fhansen]

The doctrine of predestination holds that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world. This belief is based on scriptural passages such as Ephesians 1:4-5, which states that God "chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Additionally, Romans 8:29-30 states that "those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

However, it is important to note that the Catholic Church teaches that predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace" (CCC 600).

In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines certain individuals for salvation, but this predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace.

Yes, all grace is resistible in Catholic teaching. God ultimately refuses to make the choice for us, while drawing and aiding us in every way to make the right choice. We can never say "yes" without grace, apart from Him- but we can still always say "no".

 

[Yekcidmij]

The Canons of Dort
Third and Fourth Heads of Doctrine
Of the Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, and the Manner Thereof​

Article 3

Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil,
dead in sin, and in bondage thereto, and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor
willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation.

Article 4

There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge
of God, of natural things, and of the differences between good and evil, and discovers some regard for virtue, good
order in society, and for maintaining an orderly external deportment. But so far is this light of nature from being
sufficient to bring him to a saving knowledge of God and to true conversion, that he is incapable of using it aright
even in things natural and civil. Nay, further, this light, such as it is, man in various ways renders wholly polluted
and holds it in unrighteousness, by doing which he becomes inexcusable before God.

Edit: If I can remember where Calvin discusses this in his institutes, I would be happy to post it if you need me to.

It's amazing how many people don't go to the Synod of Dort nor realize that the "five points of Calvinism" as articulated by Dort were a response to the 5 Articles of the Remonstrance (and that the Aricles of the Remonstrance also affirmed "total depravity") nor consult the WCF.

 

[RileyG]

If someone believes in predestination, why would God predestine anyone to go to hell? And how would someone know they are truly saved despite their deep faith and devotion?

 

[Yekcidmij]

It is important to note that this doctrine is a cornerstone of Reformed theology and is not shared by all Christian denominations.

Arminius (and Wesley) and the Five Articles of the Remonstrance also affirmed a doctrine of "total depravity." So this is explicitly not particular to Calvinism.

 

[Jonaitis]

It's amazing how many people don't go to the Synod of Dort nor realize that the "five points of Calvinism" as articulated by Dort were a response to the 5 Articles of the Remonstrance (and that the Aricles of the Remonstrance also affirmed "total depravity") nor consult the WCF.

Excuse me, but my post was in response to the poster's false idea that the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that the image of God is entirely lost or destroyed in men, as they are incapable of any degree of moral action as a result of the fall. It amazes me how people will reply to a post without understanding the context of the discussion (then again, I am guilty of that).

 

[Yekcidmij]

Excuse me, but my post was in response to the poster's false idea that the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that the image of God is entirely lost or destroyed in men, as they are incapable of any degree of moral action as a result of the fall. It amazes me how people will reply to a post without understanding the context of the discussion (then again, I am guilty of that).

And I was basically agreeing, and if he had consulted the Canon's of Dort or other Protestant foundations (eg, the Westminster Confession) it should be clear. Talk about missing context. Next time try just asking for clarificaiton.

Good grief.

 

[fhansen]

Here's a summary of the doctrine with alleged scripture references that support it.

The doctrine of total depravity, also known as "total inability," is the belief that as a result of the fall of man, human beings are completely corrupted in their nature and unable to choose or do anything good apart from God's grace. This doctrine holds that human nature is so fundamentally flawed that people are unable to choose to follow God or respond to the gospel without the prior work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Scripture references that are often cited to support the doctrine of total depravity include:

• Romans 3:10-12 which states "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
• Ephesians 2:1-3 which states "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath."
• John 6:44 which states " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It is important to note that this doctrine is a cornerstone of Reformed theology and is not shared by all Christian denominations.

Yes, in Catholic teaching it is also held that man cannot possibly turn himself to God; he's lost, unable to find his way up; God must take the initiative and reach down to man. And yet man is not so compromised or corrupted in will by the Fall that he cannot recognize that goodness when it comes to him, and reach up and grasp the Savior’s hand even if grace is necessary even in that effort, in that act of faith. And yet that choice is not made for him either, he can still refuse to take His hand, refuse to be saved either at the beginning or later on down the road if he wishes to turn back away and separate himself from God all over again.

 

[fhansen]

This is false.

The doctrine of total depravity does not teach that man has no ability to do good at all, but that as a result of the fall, man's whole nature was corrupted or damaged in every part (mind, heart, will, etc), wherein men are incapable wholly and only to those actions that tend to God for their spiritual good. However, we do affirm that men, though corrupted in their nature, can still perform actions of virtue, though with it being stained to some degree by sin. You fell into the very misunderstanding of its name. Total does not mean man is utterly corrupt as without any imago dei left in them.

And yet doesn't it mean, in the theology you support, that in order to say yes to God man must be regenerated first, so changed in disposition that he can no longer say no to God -rather than God drawing, moving, and appealing to man who can still always refuse to open the door?

 

[Clare73]

The doctrine of predestination holds that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world. This belief is based on scriptural passages such as Ephesians 1:4-5, which states that God "chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Additionally, Romans 8:29-30 states that "those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

However, it is important to note that the Catholic Church teaches that predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace" (CCC 600).

In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines certain individuals for salvation, but this predestination does not negate the free will of individuals to accept or reject God's grace.

Does this agree with Scripture?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's amazing how many people don't go to the Synod of Dort nor realize that the "five points of Calvinism" as articulated by Dort were a response to the 5 Articles of the Remonstrance (and that the Aricles of the Remonstrance also affirmed "total depravity") nor consult the WCF.

Not so amazing if one is not a Calvinist nor in a Calvinist denomination.