Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Why not both?

[Minister Monardo]

As to how many resurrections are there during the tribulation, I believe if a gentile who died during the trib, he will only be resurrected at the great white throne judgement at the end.

Are you taking into account this teaching?
1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Guojing]

That doesn't answer the question.

Should I assume something else is your answer/no answer?
How are you defining 'the elect' here in Matthew 24:31?
Is there a reply for this?

Is that your response to this, and if so, how are you not "caught up" in a contradiction.

No judgment without a resurrection.

Since I am in the Body of Christ, I will be raptured before the Tribulation.

The elect in Matthew 24 refers to the saved members of the nation of Israel, and does not refer to the Body of Christ. They are not raptured, they are resurrected.

 

[Minister Monardo]

As to how many resurrections are there during the tribulation, I believe if a gentile who died during the trib, he will only be resurrected at the great white throne judgement at the end.

But I am fine if it ends up they are resurrected before that

Good to know that you are okay with that. Are there any Bible verses you would like to cite
in support of what you believe?

 

[Guojing]

Are you taking into account this teaching?
1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until t
he coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage is talking about the rapture of the Body of Christ, pre-tribulation.

Those who are already dead will rise first. If I happen to be still living on Earth when the rapture happens, I will follow them to heaven next.

 

[Guojing]

Good to know that you are okay with that. Are there any Bible verses you would like to cite
in support of what you believe?

I have no strong belief on how many resurrections there are for those who are saved during the Tribulation.

You can say I have no vested interest since I believe the Body of Christ will be raptured before the Tribulation, so how many resurrections for them does not really matter to me.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Since I am in the Body of Christ, I will be raptured before the Tribulation.

The elect in Matthew 24 refers to the saved members of the nation of Israel, and does not refer to the Body of Christ. They are not raptured, they are resurrected.

Wow! So the saved members of the nation of Israel are not a part of the body of Christ!
Isn't that called replacement theology?
So there is a resurrection at Matthew 24:31. OK, now that is an answer, but an incorrect one.
The resurrection is at the end prior to the judgment, with the one exception already noted.
Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then the
souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second
death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him
a thousand years.

 

[Minister Monardo]

This passage is talking about the rapture of the Body of Christ, pre-tribulation.

Those who are already dead will rise first. If I happen to be still living on Earth when the rapture happens, I will follow them to heaven next.

No way. This contradicts Rev 20, which I am sure you will be addressing shortly.

 

[Guojing]

Wow! So the saved members of the nation of Israel are not a part of the body of Christ!
Isn't that called replacement theology?
So there is a resurrection at Matthew 24:31. OK, now that is an answer, but an incorrect one.
The resurrection is at the end prior to the judgment, with the one exception already noted.
Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then the
souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second
death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him
a thousand years.

No, replacement theology says the Body of Christ has replaced national Israel.

My theology is that the Body of Christ, and national Israel are separate entities.

National Israel inherits the Earth during the millennial reign (Matthew 5:5)

The Body of Christ inherits the heavens during the millennial reign (Ephesians 1:3)

 

[Minister Monardo]

You can say I have no vested interest since I believe the Body of Christ will be raptured before the Tribulation,

Right. You did say that, and I asked if you had a Bible verse to support this belief.
You do realize that if you believe that, you believe the resurrection takes place before
the tribulation. That is what Paul is saying here:

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

 

[Guojing]

No way. This contradicts Rev 20, which I am sure you will be addressing shortly.

There is no contradiction.

Revelation 20 is about national Israel

1 Thess 4 is about the Body of Christ.

As I said, they are 2 separate entities.

 

[Minister Monardo]

National Israel inherits the Earth during the millennial reign (Matthew 5:5)

The Body of Christ inherits the heavens during the millennial reign (Ephesians 1:3)

These verses have no relation to the statements you are making, offering no support for your
belief. Good story though.

 

[Guojing]

Right. You did say that, and I asked if you had a Bible verse to support this belief.
You do realize that if you believe that, you believe the resurrection takes place before
the tribulation. That is what Paul is saying here:

The rapture of the Body of Christ is a mystery that is only found in Paul's epistles.

You have quoted 1 Thess which is correct. Other scriptures that talk about the rapture includes 1 Corinthians 15:51-58

 

[Guojing]

These verses have no relation to the statements you are making, offering no support for your
belief. Good story though.

Inherit the Earth is in Matthew 5:5

The heavenly places is in Ephesians 1:3

If you want to interpret them differently, you are of course free to do so.

 

[Minister Monardo]

There is no contradiction.

Revelation 20 is about national Israel

1 Thess 4 is about the Body of Christ.

As I said, they are 2 separate entities.

So you are separating what Paul taught had been made one.
You broke it, you bought it. You can try to sell it, but there is not support for
this idea of the body of Christ "inheriting the heavens" during the millennium.
Spiritually speaking, the body of Christ is already in heaven. Hebrews 12:22, 23.

 

[Guojing]

So you are separating what Paul taught had been made one.
You broke it, you bought it. You can try to sell it, but there is not support for
this idea of the body of Christ "inheriting the heavens" during the millennium.
Spiritually speaking, the body of Christ is already in heaven. Hebrews 12:22, 23.

Paul separated national Israel from the Body of Christ throughout Romans 11.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Inherit the Earth is in Matthew 5:5

The heavenly places is in Ephesians 1:3

If you want to interpret them differently, you are of course free to do so.

You are defining the meek as national Israel, that's interesting.
Ephesians makes no reference to the millennium. You are putting it there.
We are blessed with spiritual blessings from the heavenlies now, in Christ.
Not "asleep in Christ", or dead in Christ. Not in some future millennium.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Paul separated national Israel from the Body of Christ throughout Romans 11.

Not in reference to the millennium, and not on earth while the Body of Christ "inherits heaven".
You realize this is all your own terminology. Of course I am rejecting it.

 

[Guojing]

You are defining the meek as national Israel, that's interesting.
Ephesians makes no reference to the millennium. You are putting it there.
We are blessed with spiritual blessings from the heavenlies now, in Christ.
Not "asleep in Christ", or dead in Christ. Not in some future millennium.

Matthew 15:24 made it clear that the first coming of Jesus was only for the House of Israel, so naturally when Jesus made the Sermon on the Mount, it could only be a sermon to national Israel.

Paul instructs us to look forward to the blessed hope, which is the rapture. If you want to claim your spirit is in heaven now, I am fine with that belief.

But for me, I believe my spirit is still in my body, I have a redeemed spirit in an unredeemed body. When the rapture goes, that is when I will received my redeemed body, and together with my spirit, I will be in the heavens.

 

[Guojing]

Not in reference to the millennium, and not on earth while the Body of Christ "inherits heaven".
You realize this is all your own terminology. Of course I am rejecting it.

So you do agree that National Israel and the Body of Christ were separate groups in Romans 11?

Alright, at least we agree on that part.

 

[JulieB67]

The elect in Matthew 24 refers to the saved members of the nation of Israel, and does not refer to the Body of Christ. They are not raptured, they are resurrected.

Christ himself states he has foretold us "all" things. If there was indeed a rapture he would have taught it in the gospels.

The rapture of the Body of Christ is a mystery that is only found in Paul's epistles.

The mystery that Paul taught is that "all" will be changed, not that anyone would be going anywhere. Paul never taught a pre tribulation rapture. If one reads past the favorite rapture verses in 1st Thessalonians 4:17, etc and continue into chapter 5 the subject hasn't changed. Remember there were no chapters in the manuscripts/letters. He names the very event of 1st Thes 4 :17 -"the day of the Lord".

He then further still nails down the timing in 2nd Thessalonians because of their confusion, he says "that day" (same day in 1st Thes 4:17) shall not happen until certain events happened. He is a second witness to Christ's teachings that our gathering back to Christ will not happen until the tribulation. He and Christ both give out strict warnings to not be deceived on this subject.