Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Why not both?

[jgr]

Jews always call fellow Jews their brethren.

They call gentile, dogs

But Jesus doesn't.

 

[Guojing]

But Jesus doesn't.

You are free to have a different interpretation of that passage

 

[jgr]

You are free to have a different interpretation of that passage

What passage?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 25:31-32 used the term "nations" which always mean gentile nations in scripture. Israel is called nation (singular)

As I'm sure you're aware, it was originally written in Greek and the Greek word is "ethnos". That word does NOT always mean Gentile nations in scripture. The word can refer to Gentiles in general, Gentile nations in general, all nations, all people or to people in general. See post #57 for examples of where the word does not refer to only Gentile nations. And there are many other examples where the word does not refer only to Gentile nations, also.

It doesn't even always refer to nations. I think it should have been translated as all people there rather than all nations in order to avoid confusion because all individual people will be judged at that time. Some people think it's talking about entire nations being judged at that time, which is ludicrous. Jesus isn't going to give eternal life to entire nations or cast entire nations into everlasting fire.

Once the dispensation of grace is over, if a gentile wants to be saved during the Tribulation, just like in time past, he have to be saved thru blessing Israel (Matthew 25:40 , Deuteronomy 23:3-4).

That is not taught anywhere in scripture, including in the verses you referenced. No one has, or ever will be, saved any other way than by grace through faith. You are making it out as if Ephesians 2:8-10 does not apply right up until the return of Christ at the end of the age, but it does. You are sadly mistaken.

You are living in the current dispensation of grace, where salvation is given to you freely, thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11), so no you don't have to do that.

Salvation by grace through faith will occur right up until the return of Christ at the end of the age at which point the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in. There is no scripture whatsoever which teaches that anything will change in regards to how a person becomes saved before the end of this temporal age when the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth is ushered in.

Also, you always act as if the entire nation of Israel fell when that was not the case. There was a remnant that was saved in Paul's day (Romans 11:5) and there have been Israelites being saved ever since.

You must rightly divide the word of truth to understand the difference.

It's because I rightly divide the word of truth that I can see the error in your beliefs.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jews always call fellow Jews their brethren.

They call gentile, dogs

Who did Jesus say are His brethren?

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

All who belong to Christ are His brethren. The least of these His brethren in Matthew 25:31-46 are the poor and needy who belong to Him that He talked about. Nationality and ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

 

[JulieB67]

Hello

Now reading Matt 24/ Mark 13 (I believe) Christ was not talking to the Church nor to any Christian. Jewish people still under and living by the Law asked Him.

I see the disciples as Christians at that time because they were indeed the followers of Christ. They privately talked to Christ about the end of this earth age/world and the signs that would proceed that and he lays it out.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I tie both of these together because both Christ and Paul give warnings about deception. Christ states if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. Going with 2nd Thessalonians the person on the throne proclaiming to be God. Both have Christ returning after all of this, not before.

How in the world do you think this GOD can send His wrath on the WORLD and ALL in it this time while you are here among them?

As I've mentioned before I don't believe tribulation is the same thing as Gods' wrath that comes on the world. Christ specifically states those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

Yet Paul tells them whats coming and take comfort and share it will all.

The original context of the chapter though is not about a rapture at all, it's about comforting those that had lost loved ones. That's what Paul meant as in we should take comfort in those words.

This is no thief.

This Christ came when they were not ready and took what was His

It's about the "day" and that day is not supposed to over take us watching as a thief.

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

 

[Guojing]

Who did Jesus say are His brethren?

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

All who belong to Christ are His brethren. The least of these His brethren in Matthew 25:31-46 are the poor and needy who belong to Him that He talked about. Nationality and ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Gentiles were still cut off during the 1st coming of Jesus (Ephesians 2:11-12), we were separate from Christ, so Jesus cannot be referring to gentiles with that statement. It must still be Jews.

Remember he called Gentiles dogs in Matthew 15:26?

 

[Guojing]

As I'm sure you're aware, it was originally written in Greek and the Greek word is "ethnos". That word does NOT always mean Gentile nations in scripture. The word can refer to Gentiles in general, Gentile nations in general, all nations, all people or to people in general. See post #57 for examples of where the word does not refer to only Gentile nations. And there are many other examples where the word does not refer only to Gentile nations, also.

It doesn't even always refer to nations. I think it should have been translated as all people there rather than all nations in order to avoid confusion because all individual people will be judged at that time. Some people think it's talking about entire nations being judged at that time, which is ludicrous. Jesus isn't going to give eternal life to entire nations or cast entire nations into everlasting fire.

That is not taught anywhere in scripture, including in the verses you referenced. No one has, or ever will be, saved any other way than by grace through faith. You are making it out as if Ephesians 2:8-10 does not apply right up until the return of Christ at the end of the age, but it does. You are sadly mistaken.

Salvation by grace through faith will occur right up until the return of Christ at the end of the age at which point the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in. There is no scripture whatsoever which teaches that anything will change in regards to how a person becomes saved before the end of this temporal age when the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth is ushered in.

Also, you always act as if the entire nation of Israel fell when that was not the case. There was a remnant that was saved in Paul's day (Romans 11:5) and there have been Israelites being saved ever since.

It's because I rightly divide the word of truth that I can see the error in your beliefs.

I am just explaining what Jesus literally said in that passage in the KJV about the sheep and goat judgement, using the context.

But you are always free to have alternative interpretations, to suit your theology.

 

[jgr]

Gentiles were still cut off during the 1st coming of Jesus (Ephesians 2:11-12), we were separate from Christ, so Jesus cannot be referring to gentiles with that statement. It must still be Jews.

Remember he called Gentiles dogs in Matthew 15:26?

If Jesus believed in Matthew 15:26 that Gentiles were dogs, then He must still believe that Gentiles are dogs, because there is no Scripture which says that He ever changed His mind.

 

[Guojing]

If Jesus believed in Matthew 15:26 that Gentiles were dogs, then He must still believe that Gentiles are dogs, because there is no Scripture which says that He ever changed His mind.

I already mentioned Ephesians 2:11-12, about the difference between time past and but now.

That is why he saved Paul to reveal to him the hidden mystery.

 

[jgr]

Gentiles were still cut off during the 1st coming of Jesus

Was the dog Gentile woman still cut off?

 

[Guojing]

Was the dog Gentile woman still cut off?

She was, but she still got the healing she requested from Jesus, because she submitted to the nation of Israel by accepting that, as a dog, she could still benefit from the healing given to Jewish children, just as puppies eat the crumbs that fall from their Master's table (Mark 7:28).

Jesus acknowledged that answer she gave (Mark 7:29), and granted her the healing she requested.

After that, there are 2 ways in which she could be saved, scripture did not record for us.

Either she joined the nation of Israel and be included in their covenant, before the fall of Israel.
Or
She believed Paul's gospel of grace, after Israel fell, and entered the Body of Christ like all of us.

 

[jgr]

She was, but she still got the healing she requested from Jesus, because she submitted to the nation of Israel by accepting that, as a dog, she could still benefit from the healing given to Jewish children, just as puppies eat the crumbs that fall from their Master's table (Mark 7:28).

Jesus acknowledged that answer she gave (Mark 7:29), and granted her the healing she requested.

After that, there are 2 ways in which she could be saved, scripture did not record for us.

Either she joined the nation of Israel and be included in their covenant, before the fall of Israel.
Or
She believed Paul's gospel of grace, after Israel fell, and entered the Body of Christ like all of us.

She was healed, therefore not cut off. Nor were other Gentiles to whom Jesus ministered e.g. the Roman centurion's servant and the Gadarene demoniac.

None of them had anything to do with the "nation of Israel". Jesus' ministry eclipsed anything and everything to do with a condemned nation which He would destroy within a generation.

 

[Guojing]

She was healed, therefore not cut off. Nor were other Gentiles to whom Jesus ministered e.g. the Roman centurion's servant and the Gadarene demoniac.

None of them had anything to do with the "nation of Israel". Jesus' ministry eclipsed anything and everything to do with a condemned nation which He would destroy within a generation.

Gentiles in time past could be blessed if they blessed the nation of Israel, as I stated.

The Roman Centurion, the only other gentile that Jesus blessed, built the nation of Israel a synagogue (Luke 7:5), people tend to ignore that verse.

All these are in-line with what God told Abraham after he was willing to give up Isaac in Genesis 22:18

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Once you understand the implication of this verse, you will understand why God cursed the nations who specifically not helped Israel, but instead hinder her in Deuteronomy 23:3-4.

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.

Incidentally, Ruth was a Moabite, from the same cursed nation, but as Genesis 22:18 stated, she wisely got into marriage with Boaz, and became a Jew thru marriage, allowing her to enter the same covenant God made with Israel and became Jesus's ancestor.

You will also understand why, in the age to come, which is the Tribulation, national Israel will become God's favorite nation once again.

That is when gentiles will once again be cut off (Romans 11:22), and if I am a gentile who is still unsaved then, I will need to recall how was life for gentiles in time past, and know how I need to be saved in that age, which is to bless the nation of Israel (Matthew 25:40).

As I said, you are free to disagree with me of course, and have your own doctrine.

 

[jgr]

Gentiles in time past could be blessed if they blessed the nation of Israel, as I stated.

No Scripture exists.

The Roman Centurion, the only other gentile that Jesus blessed, built the nation of Israel a synagogue (Luke 7:5), people tend to ignore that verse.

Jesus healed his servant. Jesus never once mentioned Israel.

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Once you understand the implication of this verse, you will understand why God cursed the nations who specifically not helped Israel, but instead hinder her in Deuteronomy 23:3-4.

God's curses on Israel.

Deuteronomy 28
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

You will also understand why, in the age to come, which is the Tribulation, national Israel will become God's favorite nation once again.

You've never yet been able to identify who Israel is.

That is when gentiles will once again be cut off (Romans 11:22), and if I am a gentile who is still unsaved then, I will need to recall how was life for gentiles in time past, and know how I need to be saved in that age, which is to bless the nation of Israel (Matthew 25:40).

Who is Israel?

 

[Guojing]

Who is Israel?

The Jewish brethren of Jesus (Matthew 25:40)

 

[jgr]

The Jewish brethren of Jesus (Matthew 25:40)

Have you so soon already forgotten whom Jesus identified as His brethren?

Matthew 12:46-50

 

[Guojing]

Have you so soon already forgotten whom Jesus identified as His brethren?

Matthew 12:46-50

You disagree and interpret it differently. That is fine with me.

 

[jgr]

You disagree and interpret it differently. That is fine with me.

I don't disagree with what Jesus said.

Why do you?

 

[Guojing]

I don't disagree with what Jesus said.

Why do you?

I think what you actually meant is "I don't disagree with what I think Jesus said, why do you?"

If so, then the answer to your question will emerge naturally.