Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Why not both?

[Guojing]

Christ himself states he has foretold us "all" things. If there was indeed a rapture he would have taught it in the gospels.

As Paul stated clearly in Ephesians 3:1-9, the body of Christ was a mystery hidden in God (vs9)

Jesus being God obviously knew about this mystery but when it is hidden in him, he won’t reveal it until the correct time, which came with the apostle Paul.

 

[JulieB67]

None of those verses prove a pretrib rapture.

 

[Guojing]

None of those verses prove a pretrib rapture.

Are you post trib or amill?

 

[JulieB67]

I don't like labels but I believe Christ returns after the tribulation, so yes -post trib.

I believe it will go down exactly as Christ states in Matthew 24, Paul being a second witness to those teachings.

 

[Guojing]

I don't like labels but I believe Christ returns after the tribulation, so yes -post trib.

I believe it will go down exactly as Christ states in Matthew 24, Paul being a second witness to those teachings.

Do you know what is the main aim of God during the Tribulation?

Why is that term synonymous with the term "Jacob's trouble"? Jeremiah 30:7,

Do you consider yourself part of Jacob?

 

[JulieB67]

Do you know what is the main aim of God during the Tribulation?

This has always been about God vs Satan, ever since the Satan's overthrow.

It was first prophesized that Satan would sit on the throne proclaiming to be God back in Isaiah.

Our Father wants to see who will follow the fake savior -Satan or who will endure to the end as Christ states, it will be those that will be saved. It's God that sends that delusion because he wants to see who has done their homework and heeded the warnings by Christ and Paul.

Christ even states, if they say Christ is here or there, don't believe it.

Do you consider yourself part of Jacob?

It's possible. I certainly don't put lump all 12 tribes into one, like many Christians do -Judah. I believe the other 10 scattered all over the earth, some today not even knowing their own true heritage. But that proves that Abraham's seed truly can't be numbered and is as the sand.

And tribulation should not be confused with the wrath that God brings on the day of the Lord.

 

[Guojing]

This has always been about God vs Satan, ever since the Satan's overthrow.

It was first prophesized that Satan would sit on the throne proclaiming to be God back in Isaiah.

Our Father wants to see who will follow the fake savior -Satan or who will endure to the end as Christ states, it will be those that will be saved. It's God that sends that delusion because he wants to see who has done their homework and heeded the warnings by Christ and Paul.

Christ even states, if they say Christ is here or there, don't believe it.



It's possible. I certainly don't put lump all 12 tribes into one, like many Christians do -Judah. I believe the other 10 scattered all over the earth, some today not even knowing their own true heritage.

And tribulation should not be confused with the wrath that God brings on the day of the Lord.

I see, from your answer, my guess is that you see yourself as some form of spiritual Israel?

 

[JulieB67]

I see, from your answer, my guess is that you see yourself as some form of spiritual Israel?

I just don't separate all of Israel like others do from the body of Christ.

Take the 144,000 -those aren't all Jewish people as many like to believe. Only 12 thousand are Jewish. Again, the other 10 tribes were scattered all over and yet, 12 thousand of each will be part of the 144, 000. I see all of these as believers in Christ and probably will be the ones that will witness for Christ at that time. And hopefully many will have their eyes opened at that time.

 

[Guojing]

I just don't separate all of Israel like others do from the body of Christ.

Take the 144,000 -those aren't all Jewish people as many like to believe. Only 12 thousand are Jewish. Again, the other 10 tribes were scattered all over and yet, 12 thousand of each will be part of the 144, 000. I see all of these as believers in Christ and probably will be the ones that will witness for Christ at that time. And hopefully many will have their eyes opened at that time.

I see, yes those who separate national Israel from the body of Christ would tend to be pre-trib. =)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I often here this debate and both sides have scriptures to support their point of view. Why can't both be right?

Why can't some Christians be taken at the beginning of the tribulation and some taken at the end of the tribulation?

Here's the scenario.

At the beginning of the tribulation, some Christians are taken. This isn't seen as the Rapture because a lot of well known Christians weren't taken. So this is called an invasion.

The antichrist and his system will say we can protect you from being taken if they come back if you do what we say or take this mark which I believe will be a name of blasphemy.

Christians will resist and die along with the two witnesses during the tribulation and the ones that are still alive that are in the 1st Resurrection will be transformed when Christ returns.

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

I belive the issue is the concept of a "secret rapture" before the main rapture ,in other words, two events rather than one. And if you throw in midtrib then we are faced with three events. Paul only speaks of one event.

Blessings

 

[Matt5]

I often here this debate and both sides have scriptures to support their point of view. Why can't both be right?

Why can't some Christians be taken at the beginning of the tribulation and some taken at the end of the tribulation?

Here's the scenario.

At the beginning of the tribulation, some Christians are taken. This isn't seen as the Rapture because a lot of well known Christians weren't taken. So this is called an invasion.

The antichrist and his system will say we can protect you from being taken if they come back if you do what we say or take this mark which I believe will be a name of blasphemy.

Christians will resist and die along with the two witnesses during the tribulation and the ones that are still alive that are in the 1st Resurrection will be transformed when Christ returns.

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

Who is a Christian? Who decides? What is the criteria?

The whole purpose of the fake Jesus (false prophet) is to force everybody to choose: take the Mark and follow the fake Jesus or die for the real Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 24 and 25 form the Olivet discourse, and Jesus is describing the end times to the 12

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 25:31-46 explains what happens at the end of the Tribulation, where gentiles of all nations will be judged based on whether they helped national Israel or not, as you quoted from vs 35 onwards.

So, are you saying you think the goats represent Gentiles who didn't help national Israel?

The sheep inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world" while the goats will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". I am a Gentile who has not done anything to help national Israel. So, do you believe I will be cast into everlasting fire on the day Christ returns?

Since when is someone's eternal destiny determined by how they treated the nation of Israel? Where is that taught in scripture? Nowhere. Instead, scripture teaches that our eternal destiny is based on whether we have repented and put our faith in Christ or not.

 

[Guojing]

So, are you saying you think the goats represent Gentiles who didn't help national Israel?

The sheep inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world" while the goats will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". I am a Gentile who has not done anything to help national Israel. So, do you believe I will be cast into everlasting fire on the day Christ returns?

Since when is someone's eternal destiny determined by how they treated the nation of Israel? Where is that taught in scripture? Nowhere. Instead, scripture teaches that our eternal destiny is based on whether we have repented and put our faith in Christ or not.

Matthew 25:31-32 used the term "nations" which always mean gentile nations in scripture. Israel is called nation (singular)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Once the dispensation of grace is over, if a gentile wants to be saved during the Tribulation, just like in time past, he have to be saved thru blessing Israel (Matthew 25:40 , Deuteronomy 23:3-4).

You are living in the current dispensation of grace, where salvation is given to you freely, thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11), so no you don't have to do that.

You must rightly divide the word of truth to understand the difference.

 

[Blade]

I don't like labels but I believe Christ returns after the tribulation, so yes -post trib.

I believe it will go down exactly as Christ states in Matthew 24, Paul being a second witness to those teachings.

Hi JulieB67 I think allot do the same with those. For me the two do not match. Well one was spoken when Jewish people not Christians no Church asked Him. The other Christ died rose AMEN AMEN AMEN and Paul had a great revelation that no other has had. We read 1st Thess which was Pauls first letter to people that were told Christ already came..something like that. So Paul shares what God showed him. Many do trip over what Paul said "we which remain" He didnt say they or them that remain but "we which remain". Then tells them to comfort one another with these words. Now reading Matt 24/ Mark 13 (I believe) Christ was not talking to the Church nor to any Christian. Jewish people still under and living by the Law asked Him.

So in Matt 24/Mark did we read what happens before Christ comes in the clouds and every eye sees Him and is coming with 10,000s of His saints..hmm who are they? So reading before that ...yeah no comfort there.. that is or back then will be the worst time in mans history that has ever been or ever will be. Yet Paul tells them whats coming and take comfort and share it will all. Its MAN that says "well Paul and Jesus just left parts out but the story is still the same". <--that is not whats written. WE put the two together knowing the do not match. One has Christ coming in the clouds every eye shall see Him with His saints and then a trump and then sends His angels to gather from heaven and earth. The other Christ Himself will come down/ descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which (wow WE WHICH Remain).

I think we forget just who we are and who He is. Who are we to tell GOD "sorry there can only be ONE rapture"? For me I can see pre trib because I know who I am in Christ. He is in me and the sweet holy Spirit as is in every believer. Now we know we are not righteous but ONLY because we believe in Jesus Christ. So if GOD could not destroy cities because of one righteous (Lot) "as long as you are here I can do nothing". How in the world do you think this GOD can send His wrath on the WORLD and ALL in it this time while you are here among them? Lot had to be GONE yet odd you how have CHRIST and the sweet sweet holy Spirit in you that LOT didn't have.. oh you God can send His wrath on the world with you in it. Then WHEN do you see the place He made for you? Jesus only said what the Father said.. Jesus went back to make you a home in HIs Fathers house if it was not so He would have told you. So if He goes to prepare a place for you He WILL come back and take you receive you unto Him self so WHERE He is you will be.

We all know they understood it. He just told them.. in my Fathers house. WHERE He is we will be. Not where we are He will be. Yet thats how we now say it. We are not going to be with Him as He said.. no He is going to be here on earth where we are.. no homes that He PREPARED for us.. this is not His Fathers house.

Anyway thats how I understand it and I can be wrong. So since I can't prove nor anyone else ever has PRE MID POST.. them I must just watch pray be ready now. Always ready every moment. Oh I LOVE always thinking of Him always watching. I don't know when that maters of the house comes back. So many are not watching not ready or don't even believe. To that no one can say if He comes pre will they go anyway? God will make them go? Thats not written. For me that seems like the thief came and went they never saw it. This is no thief. This Christ came when they were not ready and took what was His. See for me it HAS to be written. I can not ADD words or take away words nor speculate. So no one can say post if fact nor pre is fact. its not written. Yeah like always watching ready now..always thinking about Him and how you live your life as if He could come any moment.. yeah so evil so wrong huh. Yet its what He told us to do. I don't know future only now. I can prepare for tomorrow but I live in today. I am ready now

 

[Timtofly]

So, are you saying you think the goats represent Gentiles who didn't help national Israel?

The sheep inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world" while the goats will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". I am a Gentile who has not done anything to help national Israel. So, do you believe I will be cast into everlasting fire on the day Christ returns?

Since when is someone's eternal destiny determined by how they treated the nation of Israel? Where is that taught in scripture? Nowhere. Instead, scripture teaches that our eternal destiny is based on whether we have repented and put our faith in Christ or not.

Since when is any one's eternal destiny determined by how they treated any one?

 

[Guojing]

Since when is any one's eternal destiny determined by how they treated any one?

Not everyone want to accept what Jesus said literally in Matthew 25:31-46

 

[jgr]

Matthew 25:31-32 used the term "nations" which always mean gentile nations in scripture.

These nations include Israel:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[jgr]

Once the dispensation of grace is over, if a gentile wants to be saved during the Tribulation, just like in time past, he have to be saved thru blessing Israel (Matthew 25:40

Jesus doesn't single out Israel. He doesn't mention Israel at all:

Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus identifies His brethren. He doesn't single out Israel. He doesn't mention Israel at all:

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[jgr]

Once the dispensation of grace is over, if a gentile wants to be saved during the Tribulation, just like in time past, he have to be saved thru blessing Israel (Matthew 25:40 , Deuteronomy 23:3-4).

How would someone determine if an individual is an Israelite? What test would need to be performed to determine whether or not that individual should be blessed?

With supporting Scripture.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus doesn't single out Israel. He doesn't mention Israel at all:

Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus identifies His brethren. He doesn't single out Israel. He doesn't mention Israel at all:

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Jews always call fellow Jews their brethren.

They call gentile, dogs