Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Why not both?

[Spiritual Jew]

I have provided Ephesians 2:11-12 for your reference.

That at that time

• ye were without Christ,
• being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
• and strangers from the covenants of promise,
• having no hope,
• and without God in the world:

Paul was speaking in a general sense about Gentiles there and not about literally all Gentiles. Clearly, the Ninevites of Jonah's day repented of their sins, so they were not without hope and "without God in the world" at that point. Melchizedek, Rahab, Ruth, Cornelius and other Gentiles had personal relationships with God in Old Testament times. Rahab is even included in Hebrews 11 in a list of Old Testament people who had great faith. So, that all should be kept in mind when interpreting a passage like Ephesians 2:11-12.

 

[Guojing]

God is not a racist.

Jesus is not a racist.

The Holy Spirit is not a racist.

Paul was not a racist.

Your failed dispensational attempt to racialize Ephesians 2:11-12 is errant and unScriptural.

There is only one condition that results in the separation and alienation described by Paul.

Unbelief.

The Ephesian Gentiles had separated and alienated themselves, as a result of their unbelief.

They were thus uncovenanted, separated and alienated from both the old and new covenants of God and His Son.

But resolved when they forsook their unbelief, and entered into a covenant relationship of faith and obedience with God and His Son.

Nothing to do with physical DNA.

Everything to do with spiritual DNA.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

You are of course free to interpret that passage to fit your existing doctrine.

 

[Guojing]

Paul was speaking in a general sense about Gentiles there and not about literally all Gentiles. Clearly, the Ninevites of Jonah's day repented of their sins, so they were not without hope and "without God in the world" at that point. Melchizedek, Rahab, Ruth, Cornelius and other Gentiles had personal relationships with God in Old Testament times. Rahab is even included in Hebrews 11 in a list of Old Testament people who had great faith. So, that all should be kept in mind when interpreting a passage like Ephesians 2:11-12.

Since you cannot accept that, during the Tribulation, gentile unbelievers will need to bless the nation of Israel before they can enter the Kingdom with her (Matthew 25:31-46), I can understand why you will naturally find it impossible to believe that, before the apostle Paul, it was like that too.

Thus, in order to fit Ephesians 2:11-12 to your doctrine, you need to reason with "Paul was speaking in a general sense about Gentiles there and not about literally all Gentiles", whatever that means to you.

For me, as you noticed, I don't try to explain to myself or others what Paul really meant in the words he chose. If his literal words make sense, there is no need to spiritualize or seek alternative interpretations.

Going back to the topic, we can see how our debate over this relates to this thread.

Using the 3 time periods used by Paul, time past, but now, the age to come (Ephesians 2):

• Time past: (From Israel until Paul was saved) Gentiles were cut off and needed to go thru Israel to be saved (Exodus 12:48, Esther 8:17, Hebrews 11:31 (addresses your Rahab point), Ephesians 2:11-12)
• But now: (All of us now currently) Gentiles enjoy the abundance of God's grace and can be saved without Israel (Romans 11:11, Ephesians 3:1-9)
• The age to come: (Tribulation) Gentiles will be cut off and will need to go thru Israel to be saved (Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 11:22-26)

Naturally, if you cannot accept the first point, you will have to reject the final point as well, and vice versa.

 

[jgr]

You are of course free to interpret that passage to fit your existing doctrine.

Yes, existing for almost 2,000 years, by God's grace and mercy. (Jude 1:3)

 

[jgr]

Since you cannot accept that, during the Tribulation, gentile unbelievers will need to bless the nation of Israel before they can enter the Kingdom with her (Matthew 25:31-46), I can understand why you will naturally find it impossible to believe that, before the apostle Paul, it was like that too.

Thus, in order to fit Ephesians 2:11-12 to your doctrine, you need to reason with "Paul was speaking in a general sense about Gentiles there and not about literally all Gentiles", whatever that means to you.

For me, as you noticed, I don't try to explain to myself or others what Paul really meant in the words he chose.

Going back to the topic, we can see how our debate over this relates to this thread.

Using the 3 time periods used by Paul, time past, but now, the age to come (Ephesians 2):

• Time past: (Before Paul was saved) Gentiles were cut off and needed to go thru Israel to be saved (Exodus 12:48, Esther 8:17, Hebrews 11:31, Ephesians 2:11-12)
• But now: (All of us now currently) Gentiles enjoy the abundance of God's grace and can be saved without Israel (Romans 11:11)
• The age to come: (Tribulation) Gentiles will be cut off and will need to go thru Israel to be saved (Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 11:22-26)

Naturally, if you cannot accept the first point, you will have to reject the final point as well.

I recently requested that you highlight the word "Jew(ish)" in Matthew 12:50.

I'm still waiting.

 

[Guojing]

I recently requested that you highlight the word "Jew(ish)" in Matthew 12:50.

I'm still waiting.

I already gave you Matthew 15:24 regarding who the audience Jesus was addressing in his first coming.

You reject that, and choose to understand Matthew 12:50 without that verse. That is your prerogative.

 

[jgr]

I already gave you Matthew 15:24 regarding who the audience Jesus was addressing in his first coming.

You reject that, and choose to understand Matthew 12:50 without that verse. That is your prerogative.

Then why did Jesus minister to Gentiles?

 

[Marilyn C]

I often here this debate and both sides have scriptures to support their point of view. Why can't both be right?

Why can't some Christians be taken at the beginning of the tribulation and some taken at the end of the tribulation?

Here's the scenario.

At the beginning of the tribulation, some Christians are taken. This isn't seen as the Rapture because a lot of well known Christians weren't taken. So this is called an invasion.

The antichrist and his system will say we can protect you from being taken if they come back if you do what we say or take this mark which I believe will be a name of blasphemy.

Christians will resist and die along with the two witnesses during the tribulation and the ones that are still alive that are in the 1st Resurrection will be transformed when Christ returns.

So people could be debating these things but they're both right.

Hi endofdayz,

Important question. Now all scripture concerns Christ, His character and His purposes for - The Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. Thus it is important to know and believe what the Lord is doing.

The Lord is building and maturing His Body, (Eph. 4: 11 - 16) and when we have come to the full truth by the Holy Spirit, then the Lord will come and take us to His eternal throne in glory. (Rev. 3: 21)

Some people think that eschatology is not important for salvation. However unless you know where and when you are going then how well are we following the Lord and understanding Him?

This truth, (when and where we go) is the last truth that the Holy Spirit is clarifying with the Body of Christ. Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has been leading the Body into all truth, as Jesus told us He would. (John 16: 13).

We have the truths of Salvation by faith, adult baptism in water, infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the holy Spirit, the ministries of Christ, and now the eternal purposes in Christ. In the past people have died for different truths and that is why we have them today.

`Let no one defraud you of your reward...and not holding fast to the Head...` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

A very pertinent warning by the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Guojing]

Then why did Jesus minister to Gentiles?

Define "minister"

 

[jgr]

Define "minister"

Ask your minister.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Since you cannot accept that, during the Tribulation, gentile unbelievers will need to bless the nation of Israel before they can enter the Kingdom with her (Matthew 25:31-46), I can understand why you will naturally find it impossible to believe that, before the apostle Paul, it was like that too.

Thus, in order to fit Ephesians 2:11-12 to your doctrine, you need to reason with "Paul was speaking in a general sense about Gentiles there and not about literally all Gentiles", whatever that means to you.

For me, as you noticed, I don't try to explain to myself or others what Paul really meant in the words he chose. If his literal words make sense, there is no need to spiritualize or seek alternative interpretations.

But, it doesn't make sense to see him as speaking of all Gentiles and I explained why very clearly. If you want to just ignore that there were Gentiles who were saved in Old Testament times then that's on you. You have no excuse for your ignorance.

Going back to the topic, we can see how our debate over this relates to this thread.

Using the 3 time periods used by Paul, time past, but now, the age to come (Ephesians 2):

• Time past: (From Israel until Paul was saved) Gentiles were cut off and needed to go thru Israel to be saved (Exodus 12:48, Esther 8:17, Hebrews 11:31 (addresses your Rahab point), Ephesians 2:11-12)
• But now: (All of us now currently) Gentiles enjoy the abundance of God's grace and can be saved without Israel (Romans 11:11, Ephesians 3:1-9)
• The age to come: (Tribulation) Gentiles will be cut off and will need to go thru Israel to be saved (Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 11:22-26)

Naturally, if you cannot accept the first point, you will have to reject the final point as well, and vice versa.

Jesus indicated that the age to come is eternal. This idea of a tribulation age is not taught anywhere in scripture.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus taught that this age is marked by temporary things like marriage and death. He contrasted this age with the age to come (which will be ushered in when the resurrection of the dead occurs) when people will no longer get married or die. So, you are making up a non-existent age to come that doesn't match up with what scripture says about the age to come.

 

[Guojing]

But, it doesn't make sense to see him as speaking of all Gentiles and I explained why very clearly. If you want to just ignore that there were Gentiles who were saved in Old Testament times then that's on you. You have no excuse for your ignorance.

I did not ignore. Gentiles who blessed the nation of Israel during the OT were included in the same covenant.

I mentioned Rahab and Ruth already in this thread and in my reply to you. If you disagree with my explanation or you don't want to read them, that is fine, but please don't claim I have ignored those when I did not.

As I said, it does not make sense to you because you have already formed a doctrine that gentiles were never excluded at any time in Scripture, whether time past, but now or in the age to come.

So you cannot understand Ephesians 2:11-12 literally, and prefer to spiritualize the meaning, and to you, you will naturally think you have done it very clearly.

Do you notice, I never call you ignorant for doing that? I am respecting your choice of interpretation. To us, the way we interpret something is always very clear from our mind. That does not always mean anyone who disagree with our interpretation is therefore ignorant.

 

[jgr]

As I said, it does not make sense to you because you have already formed a doctrine that gentiles were never excluded at any time in Scripture, whether time past, but now or in the age to come.

Evidently God formed the doctrine thousands of years ago.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

 

[Guojing]

Evidently God formed the doctrine thousands of years ago.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Evidently, you are reading these out of their context.

Once a gentile joins the nation of Israel thru physical circumcision and following the Law of Moses, he is no longer excluded since he is now part of that nation (Exodus 12:48, Numbers 9:14, Esther 8:17).

All these scripture passages you have quoted are based on that.

But if he refused to do so, he remains cut off as a gentile (Ephesians 2:11-12).

 

[jgr]

Evidently, you are reading these out of their context.

Once a gentile joins the nation of Israel thru physical circumcision and following the Law of Moses, he is no longer excluded since he is now part of that nation (Exodus 12:48, Numbers 9:14, Esther 8:17).

All these scripture passages you have quoted are based on that.

But if he refused to do so, he remains cut off as a gentile (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Of course. When through faith and obedience he met God's Covenant conditions, and entered into a Covenant relationship with God, he was included.

Not excluded.

Same for the Jew.

Same as it has always been for all of humanity.

Spiritual DNA.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

 

[Guojing]

Of course. When through faith and obedience he met God's Covenant conditions, and entered into a Covenant relationship with God, he was included.

Not excluded.

Same for the Jew.

Same as it has always been for all of humanity.

Spiritual DNA.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

I agree, one show faith in God by obeying what he said.

So, during the days of the OT which was time past, if God told Israel that there is only one way to be right with him, which is to obey the requirements of the covenant of Law began at Exodus 24, you show faith by obeying those requirements. (Deuteronomy 28:1)

See, we can agree. =)