Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[Goodbook]

Good idea. I was thinking, all we have to do is simply publish Matthew chapter 24 and Thessalonians chapter 2. It speaks for itself. No mental gymnastics required.

Actually someone has already done this..praise the Lord! I will copy and paste here.



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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]The False Pre-Tribulation Doctrine teaches you NOT to believe what Jesus himself taught![/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](John 8:51 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Matthew 13:24-30 KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: {25} But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. {26} But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. {27} So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? {28} He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? {29} But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. {30} Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

(Matthew 24:29-31 KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Luke 17:26-30 KJV) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. {27} They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. {28} Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; {29} But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. {30} Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](John 17:15 KJV) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

(John 17:20 KJV) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Mark 8:38 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.[/FONT]​

 

[Goodbook]

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]The False Pre-Trib Doctrine does not teach what the Bible really says ! Jesus has to remain with Father God until the restitution of all things or the Day of the Lord.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Psalms 110:1 KJV) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Acts 3:19-21 KJV) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; {20} And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: {21} Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica], which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

(Proverbs 2:21-22 KJV) For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. {22} But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

(Proverbs 10:30 KJV) The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]The False Pre-Tribulation Doctrine can cause you to fall because you will not have been taught to have the strong faith you will need to overcome what is coming upon our world.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](Mark 13:11-27 KJV) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. {12} Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. {13} And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. {14} But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: {15} And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: {16} And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. {17} But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {18} And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. {19} For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. {20} And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. {21} And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: {22} For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. {23} But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. {24} But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, {25} And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. {26} And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. {27} And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. [/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]You can't fall away unless you have already been a part of something! The man of Sin, the Anti-christ, must be revealed before Jesus returns![/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica](2 Peter 3:3-14 KJV) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, {4} And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. {5} For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: {6} Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: {7} But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. {8} But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. {9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. {10} But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, {12} Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? {13} Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. {14} Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. [/FONT]​

 

[Goodbook]

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] The Lord has given us plenty of time to repent and accept Him. The day He returns will not be a quiet secret "rapture" !
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] Are you going to believe what Jesus and the Bible says or are you going to follow after the False Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching? [/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] (John 12:48 KJV) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] How serious is believing in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine? [/FONT]​

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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] (Revelation 1:1-3 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: {2} Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. {3} Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The word 'prophecy' means from the Greek language:

4394. propheteia, prof-ay-ti'-ah; from G4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other):--prophecy, prophesying.
It is the same word that is used in the last of the Book of Revelation.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] (Revelation 22:18-21 KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. {20} He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. {21} The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

When the book of Revelation was circulated in the early church, it was seen as a separate book from the rest of the writings and was not in the form as we see it now combined with the rest of the written word. When it speaks of the "words of prophecy of this book", it is speaking of the Book of Revelation alone. Of course it would not be pleasing to God to 'add to' or 'take away' from any part of the Bible, but in this case, it could cause your name to be taken out of the book of life, and to have the plagues in the book of Revelation to be added unto you, and you could not enter into the holy city or receive any of the blessings that God has provided for his children. This is how serious it is to believe the false Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine!
We plead with you to pray about what you believe and ask God to remove any preconceived man-made teachings from your mind as you re-read His word so that God can reveal His truth to you.
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[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Jesus is coming back. Are you ready?[/FONT]​

 

[Tim Myers]

Comment Removed By Original Commenter........

 

[Goodbook]

We must rightly divide the Word of God. That means, when we quote scripture, we quote whole sentences, not bits. Or if it's a parable, the whole parable, not part of it. We don't omit bits in between. We don't omit words within verses. And we never give our arguments, and then a verse reference of numbers, which you are then encouraged to spend a wild goose chase looking things up in your bible. This is how pre-tribbers can trick you into believing false doctrine. I've seen this done in a Christadelphian book called 'bible basics' a manual for interpreting the bible. Or Mary Baker Eddy's Christian Science book 'key to interpreting scripture'. Or Jehovah Witness tracts.

Scripture speaks for itself, and scripture interprets scripture. We must learn line upon line, precept upon precept. The Bible doesn't contradict itself, because God is not the author of confusion.

That is how you learn to discern the truth - you pray, you ask the Holy Spirit, he guides you to the truth when you read the Bible. Study to show yourself approved. God Bless you and keep you!

 

[Tim Myers]

I have a question, if anybody feels like tackling it........

Well, maybe not a question, but more of an observation....

The first "beast" in Revelation 13 is obviously not a description of a human being, but rather a one-world government of sorts...

Even Hal Lindsey and other pre-trib dispensationalists are willing to concede to that.......

Yet, when it describes the beast receiving a "mortal wound" to one of its heads in verse 3, most pre-tribbers will say that it is describing an assassination attempt on the antiChrist......

 

[Zadok7000]

I have a question, if anybody feels like tackling it........

Well, maybe not a question, but more of an observation....

The first "beast" in Revelation 13 is obviously not a description of a human being, but rather a one-world government of sorts...

Even Hal Lindsey and other pre-trib dispensationalists are willing to concede to that.......

Yet, when it describes the beast receiving a "mortal wound" to one of its heads in verse 3, most pre-tribbers will say that it is describing an assassination attempt on the antiChrist......

You got it, makes no sense at all. Confusion breeds confusion I guess.

 

[Sojourner1]

".....but of what purpose is it if we cannot use it to help us to better prepare our brothers and sisters who await our Master before the tribulation?"

You are absolutlely right!! But, how can we get those deceived pre-tribbers to listen to reason and realize that there is not going to be any elitist-escapism "rapture" before the tribulation??

Here is the deal (this is a friendly reminder ). You (you meaning everyone in this thread) can discuss your theological viewpoint of a post-trib rapture in this thread without the opposing viewpoint debating you. You can't use this thread to flame the pre-trib doctrine. Labeling pre-tribbers with any sort of inflammatory word will not be allowed. Calling pre-tribbers "deceived", "elitist-escapists", or the doctrine a "heresy" or "false" will not be allowed. Discuss your doctrine without focusing on what pre-trib teaches. If you read through the pre-trib sticky thread you will notice that so far no one has been discussing the post-trib doctrine or flaming it.

 

[NightHawkeye]

".....but of what purpose is it if we cannot use it to help us to better prepare our brothers and sisters who await our Master before the tribulation?"

You are absolutlely right!! But, how can we get those deceived pre-tribbers to listen to reason and realize that there is not going to be any elitist-escapism "rapture" before the tribulation??

.

When discussing gospel, it's useful to bear in mind that not everyone gets the same message.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Might even be that you're the one deceived ... I wonder about myself ... I'm pretty sure some seem think that about me ... LOL.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I have a question, if anybody feels like tackling it........

Well, maybe not a question, but more of an observation....

The first "beast" in Revelation 13 is obviously not a description of a human being, but rather a one-world government of sorts...

Even Hal Lindsey and other pre-trib dispensationalists are willing to concede to that.......

Yet, when it describes the beast receiving a "mortal wound" to one of its heads in verse 3, most pre-tribbers will say that it is describing an assassination attempt on the antiChrist......

The "mortal wound" you describe is the end of the birthpangs associated with the fast coming cataclysm.
Every day these pangs increase as our gravity is being altered by some cosmic force. Some have called this force, wormwood, others elenin, planet X, etc etc etc.
TBH, I dunno what it is called, but only what it will do "when", not if, it happens.
The wound hits the leopard, which is america, but the cataclysms from the initial strike, and the subsequent after shocks will shake the globe, and billions will die in a matter of weeks. We think of Japan, and knowing what the Holy Scripture tells us, we can only ready ourselves for something that is 1000x worse, and global in it's spread. Stars falling from the heavens could be simply lucifers battalion, or they could be meteors crashing to the planet.
In either case, one must make himself right with the Lord, to allow himself to hear what he must do if he is to stay, and act as shepherd to the lost and panicked after these events.

How can a man, even a Christian, support his family without accepting NWO allowances, after such a calamity. With billions dead, farmland stripped, and islands sank, electricity temporarily dc'd, no heat, and NO FOOD, how can this Christian man carry his children, his neighbors, and his family, into another day.
It took our brother Noah many years to prepare for this event, and his event was ONLY water. Ours will not flood the entire earth, that we are promised, nor will it burn the entire earth, of that we are promised, but we can surely expect nuclear fallout, burning heat, and regional flooding anywhere and everywhere we live.
And what comes as our deliverance, shortly thereafter, is the a/c and his beasts(NWO). These beasts, our nations, will rise up from the ashes of these events, and claim that humanity can go on only if we unite and share what little prescious resources we still have.
To a starving man, watching his children die, this will look heavensent, and even the elect will be tempted to include themselves in the apostasy that will arise during this restoration.
No offense to pretribbers. Our Lord will indeed rapture each and everyone of us. Some alive, and some resurrected. But if I should die, and my children live, the beasts might surely gain a stronghold on them, and I would find myself in a position of watching as my children are handed over to satan and his beasts.
Let us all pray that we might be counted worthy to escape such things. Protected in the bosom of the Master, Jesus, the ONLY Christ, and that we might KNOW who it is that precedes him, soas we can give full glory to the KING who will not let us starve, nor burn, nor freeze, because He sends His Holy Spirit this very moment in the hearts of the reader and the hearer, soas they might ready themselves for the coming cataclysms, and the ensuing apostasies which will abound thereafter.


Praise and exalt Him above all forever!

 

[Kingdom_Come]

...but of what purpose is it if we cannot use it to help us to better prepare our brothers and sisters who await our Master before the tribulation?

".....but of what purpose is it if we cannot use it to help us to better prepare our brothers and sisters who await our Master before the tribulation?"

You are absolutlely right!! But, how can we get those deceived pre-tribbers to listen to reason and realize that there is not going to be any elitist-escapism "rapture" before the tribulation??

Well, look at it this way. Here is a place where we can discuss the Scripture and present the view in light of Scripture in a thread that remains stickied. Anyone researching the subject will have an easily accessible source of information on the subject. They will also have the same source on the pre-trib view within their stickied thread. I think it’s a great way to allow people to see the evidence offered from each side in a plain and easily understandable fashion. If they have further questions, they can always start a thread where both sides can respond.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

I have a question, if anybody feels like tackling it........

Well, maybe not a question, but more of an observation....

The first "beast" in Revelation 13 is obviously not a description of a human being, but rather a one-world government of sorts...

Even Hal Lindsey and other pre-trib dispensationalists are willing to concede to that.......

Yet, when it describes the beast receiving a "mortal wound" to one of its heads in verse 3, most pre-tribbers will say that it is describing an assassination attempt on the antiChrist......

I don’t want to get too far off topic here, but let’s take a peek real quick to help with clarification and understanding. Many people believe the mortal wound to one of the heads describes an assassination attempt on the coming man of sin. He will either miraculously survive, or perhaps even die and be resurrected.

One of the problems of course is figuring out who he would be. Let’s say a world leader does suffer a mortal wound, but he survives it. Does this automatically identify him as the man of sin? Ronald Reagan survived an assassination attempt. I think we can safely rule him out. Pope John Paul II survived an assassination attempt. Again, it wasn’t him. So the problem with looking for some world political or religious leader who will be shot or otherwise attacked and receive a wound which could be fatal and yet survive is that people survive deadly wounds all the time. Modern medical science allows a lot of people to survive things that might otherwise result in death.

Now if he actually died and was resurrected, that might be a little out of the ordinary. Of course we know the beast represents a governmental system. We know the heads represents governments (power structures which rule over these beasts). We know this by recognizing Daniel 7 in Revelation, and Daniel 7 is clearly speaking about governments or kingdoms. John makes heavy use of this allegory throughout Revelation.

The thing with the beast of Revelation is that you can see there are layers to its meaning. If you miss this, then you will never truly understand much of what John is trying to convey. Revelation refers to the beast even when speaking of a particular aspect of the beast. This is not a problem because all aspects of the beast are still the beast. For example, if one says that Parliament or Congress enacted a resolution, does that mean that every individual member of Parliament or Congress voted in favor of it? However, if the resolution passed, it is appropriate to use the collective term of Parliament or Congress in this statement. How about if you say the President ordered military action in Yugoslavia. The President ordered the enforcement of a no fly zone in Libya. Again, the entity is the same. It’s the office of the President of a particular country. Yet it is not the same individual holding the office of the President of that country.

Let’s take a look at an example from Revelation.

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.” (Revelation 13:1-2)

Here we can see a clear reference to the beasts of Daniel 7. If we go to Daniel 7:17, we see that it is revealed to Daniel that these 4 beasts that have collectively the 7 heads and the 10 horns (which are upon the seventh head) actually represent kings (or kingdoms) that will rise. In Daniel 7:4-7 we see the birth of the lion, the bear, the leopard and the fourth beast with the 10 horns not likened to anything in nature. Now if we look at Revelation 13:1-2, we see the aspects of all of these beasts (kingdoms) represented. They are all meshed if you will into one body with all seven heads and ten horns.

So clearly the beast of Revelation refers to kingdoms or nations, and the heads with crowns represent rule or dominion. This is one aspect of the beast. However, it is not the only way John uses the symbolism of the beast. Let’s take a look at a couple of other verses.

“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Rev 13:4-7)

Now logically speaking, him is most likely referring back to the beast in this passage. It clearly states here that he will speak great things and blasphemies and reign for 42 months. Is this referring to the collective beast revealed to us just a few verses earlier in this same chapter? Clearly this is speaking about an individual. The description fits Paul’s description of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9. It also fits the description of the little horn revealed in Daniel 7 verse 8 and verses 20-26.

So here in Revelation 13:4-7 we see that the beast is clearly referring to an individual ruler; namely the man of sin (or little horn) that will reign for 42 months. This demonstrates the layers of meaning within the symbolism of the beast in Revelation.

If we look back at Revelation 12:3, we can see that the dragon is also described using essentially the same symbolism used to describe the beast. The dragon also has seven heads and ten horns. It is revealed in Revelation 12:9 that the dragon is Satan. Why would John describe Satan using the same symbolism? Because Satan is intertwined spiritually with the beast. Remember that the dragon gives power unto the beast (the individual man of sin or little horn) in Revelation 13:4. Paul also tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 that the man of sin’s advent (or coming) is after the working of Satan (or his power is derived from Satan). So again, Satan is spiritually represented within the layered meaning of the beast. I also see another layer in the representation of the beast. This can be seen between Revelation 9 and 17 and Daniel 11 along with a few other places in Scripture, but I don’t want to go off on too much of a tangent here.

The point is that when one reads about the beast in Revelation, they must realize that there are multiple meanings to John’s use of the symbol. If you try to limit your understanding of the symbol by restricting yourself to one interpretation of its meaning, you will miss a lot of what John is trying to convey, and it will also likely lead to many erroneous conclusions regarding the beast. You also do not want to go the other way and take too many liberties with the interpretation of the symbol. However, there is ample Scriptural support for its layered meaning.

 

[Manasseh_]

I have a question, if anybody feels like tackling it........

Well, maybe not a question, but more of an observation....

The first "beast" in Revelation 13 is obviously not a description of a human being, but rather a one-world government of sorts...

Even Hal Lindsey and other pre-trib dispensationalists are willing to concede to that.......

Yet, when it describes the beast receiving a "mortal wound" to one of its heads in verse 3, most pre-tribbers will say that it is describing an assassination attempt on the antiChrist......

then they are implying that the beast is a person in a sense.........a person with seven heads and ten horns.

it is this beast that receives a deadly head wound, now if it were a literal deadly head wound to a person then that person would have died

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Where the mistake is made about the mortal head wound is that so many think it's still yet future but this beast did exist in the past and the final revival of this beast has no head wound , it has already long since been healed.............so those that speculate (pretribbers) what the mortal head wound will be and who will it be are simply wasting time with their speculations and we must look to the past to understand the symbolism here

it seems most here are agreed that the beast is the Roman Empire
in Rev 13 John seen this beast (Roman Empire) to have ruled prophetically for 42 "months"

ok, so the Roman Empire in 476AD is in it's last throws......seems to be gone as far as what it once was with the power it had........but something of a "miracle" seems to have happened, Justinian with his great general Belesarius defeats the last of the Ostrogoths in 554 AD......and then the empire is renamed the "Holy" Roman Empire.

now the final ending to all this was when napolean abdicated his power in 1814 just before his defeat at waterloo............

1814 - 554 = 1260 , the prophetic 42 months that John had seen this beast rule, for 1260 years from 554 AD (When the mortal wound was healed) to 1814..........and then it seemed that this dynasty of the Roman Empire was finally over with for the Roman Empire (into the bottomless pit)............but according to Rev 17 this beast that was will return from the bottomless pit, being revived to form a last "short space" of power then Christ finally destroying it forever and establishing his kingdom instead

What's so amazing about this is the fact that we have secular history which backs up and verifies these prophecies of God which only shows the further authority of scripture and how it can be relied on to foretell future events.

 

[Manasseh_]

I have a question.......

How many postribbers here believe the length of the tribulation will be ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,7 years or 3 1/2 years ?

I believe 3.5................my references are the verses that say the time of trouble will be 42 months, a time , times and half a time, 1260 days

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[Tim Myers]

"Discuss your doctrine without focusing on what pre-trib teaches."


That would be a terrific idea if there were not so many posts on this thread by pre-tribbers attempting to get everyone to focus on what pre-trib teaches.......

 

[Zadok7000]

I have a question.......

How many postribbers here believe the length of the tribulation will be ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,7 years or 3 1/2 years ?

I believe 3.5................my references are the verses that say the time of trouble will be 42 months, a time , times and half a time, 1260 days

No doubt Daniel's 70th week is Biblical and is the time of Jacob's Trouble, IE the Great Tribulation. As you showed, however, the reign of the False Christ is limited to the 2nd 3.5 year period. I call this the "original timeline" because IMO Jesus has pulled a fast one on Satan and shortened the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:22, Mark 13:20). When cast out, he has "great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." That time is now 5 months per Rev. 9.
See also Gen. 7:24 re: "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."
And Luke 1:24 re: "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

I believe the word "times" and not "years" is used specifically in Dan. and Rev. for this very purpose.

So, there are only 2 possibilities in my mind:
1. Only the 2nd half has been shortened. 3.5 years, then 5 months.
2. The entire week has been shortened to 2 5 month periods, split by Satan and his angels' arrival.
Based on Rev. 11, I would side with #1.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

No doubt Daniel's 70th week is Biblical and is the time of Jacob's Trouble, IE the Great Tribulation. As you showed, however, the reign of the False Christ is limited to the 2nd 3.5 year period. I call this the "original timeline" because IMO Jesus has pulled a fast one on Satan and shortened the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:22, Mark 13:20). When cast out, he has "great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." That time is now 5 months per Rev. 9.
See also Gen. 7:24 re: "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."
And Luke 1:24 re: "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

I believe the word "times" and not "years" is used specifically in Dan. and Rev. for this very purpose.

So, there are only 2 possibilities in my mind:
1. Only the 2nd half has been shortened. 3.5 years, then 5 months.
2. The entire week has been shortened to 2 5 month periods, split by Satan and his angels' arrival.
Based on Rev. 11, I would side with #1.

Very interesting conclusions brother.
So the first half of the tribulation would be w/o the imposing a/c?

I see it similarly....
The first 3.5 years he acts as a savior to mankind, bringing the beasts(nations) together, while the f/p brings the religions together. Both promote unity and thereby conquer the earth through "peace". Now, when the world is restored, and all is well again, then the a/c and f/p force mankind to take the m/o/b soas they are marked to be part of this kingdom in which the a/c is god and the f/p, his high priest.
I see this period lasting the full 3.5 years, but I will be looking for our Redeemer from day one.

 

[Zadok7000]

Very interesting conclusions brother.
So the first half of the tribulation would be w/o the imposing a/c?

I see it similarly....
The first 3.5 years he acts as a savior to mankind, bringing the beasts(nations) together, while the f/p brings the religions together. Both promote unity and thereby conquer the earth through "peace". Now, when the world is restored, and all is well again, then the a/c and f/p force mankind to take the m/o/b soas they are marked to be part of this kingdom in which the a/c is god and the f/p, his high priest.
I see this period lasting the full 3.5 years, but I will be looking for our Redeemer from day one.

Let me show you my perspective:
AntiChrist (False Christ) = False Prophet. Same guy (Jesus says as much). The first beast of Rev. 13 is a worldwide political system - one of its heads (nations/continents) is wounded (rejects the system maybe besieged by war, etc). This beast rises and is on the scene for 3.5 years (more specifically 42 months/1260 days) called "the time of the Gentiles" where the 2 Witnesses prophesy against it and about the coming False Christ to be cast from heaven. It is only after this 3.5 years that the Anti Christ/False Christ/False Prophet/Son of Perdition/Serpent/Dragon is cast out of heaven with his thousands of angels. This will be the Great Tribulation/Deception. Being deceived by them = taking the Mark of the Beast.

 

[NumberOneSon]

but something of a "miracle" seems to have happened, Justinian with his great general Belesarius defeats the last of the Ostrogoths in 554 AD.

Just a minor correction; it was Narses, not Belisarius, who defeated the Ostrogoths around 554AD. Belisarius had early success against the Goths during his first campaign, but his second campaign in Italy was a failure.

.....and then the empire is renamed the "Holy" Roman Empire.

Not under Justinian it wasn't. The Holy Roman Empire is credited to Charelemagne in 800AD.

 

[Manasseh_]

Just a minor correction; it was Narses, not Belisarius, who defeated the Ostrogoths around 554AD. Belisarius had early success against the Goths during his first campaign, but his second campaign in Italy was a failure.


Not under Justinian it wasn't. The Holy Roman Empire is credited to Charelemagne in 800AD.

yes, my bad.......it was Narses after Justinian relieved Belisarius of command , I think around 546-548ish..........if my notes I'm reading are correct, but most historians give the main credit to Belisarius

and it was not renamed "holy roman empire" under Justinian, I didn't want to go into a long explanation of history but I should have at least clarified that part, the way it reads seems to imply Justinian defeats the Ostrogoths then renames it the holy roman empire.............

but I think it was Otto I or "Otto the great" when it was first named Imperium Romanum Sacrum (Holy Roman Empire) and that wasn't until around 960's ............??


regardless of this though I set out to show that the deadly head wound to the beast has already been healed in the past, that not all prophecy in Revelation should be seen to be yet future of our time and that the beast isn't an individual but rather the last of 4 world ruling empires of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, Daniel's dreams and visions and the single beast given to John in Revelation.

This would leave no open room for speculation of a man or future "antichrist" still yet to receive the deadly head wound.