Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Wit's End

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Mat 25:1-4
Then shall the [Great Tribulation] Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps [their Gospels], and WENT FORTH [from their churches]
to meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. And five of them were wise [saved wheat/sheep],
and five were foolish [unsaved tares/goats in the church] They that were foolish took
their lamps, and took no oil [Holy Spirit] with them: But the wise took oil [Holy Spirit]
in their vessels [themselves] with their lamps [their Gospel].

We are already given some of the "key" markers, so why would we use "our own interpretation"?

2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


Virgins

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Lamp(s)
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Wise
and Foolish
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And
every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Notice the first word of Matthew 25 "Then" in the original scroll this is a continuation of Matthew 24. This is what we need to focus on.

The "two" types of people one who hear the word and does them and the other doesn't.
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;


But notice, the "evil servant" says "My lord delayeth his coming" He is living worldly, and don't want Jesus to come any time soon.

In Matthew 25 these were ready Now, but some didn't prepare to endure to the end, through Tribulation or hardship.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.


What is the "Oil"? Faith. Not the Holy Spirit.

Why would Jesus tell a parable about "buying" the Holy Spirit? When we have insight on this!

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Again
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.


What do you put in The Word/Lamp?
A) The Holy Spirit
B) Faith
C) Nothing

Were the Virgins able to buy? If they come back with the Holy Spirit, it would Never be to late! The Oil is Faith in this parable.
 
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PeterJennen

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The Ten Virgins

Mat 24:15 KJV When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Is this Satan presenting himself as the bridegroom?)

Mat 24:23-30 KJV Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 25:1-13 KJV Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish. They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. (They were ready to meet the bridegroom.) And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (Jesus said, “Go not forth.”) Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Is the buying and selling of merchandise or of religious belief? Today, to become a citizen of Israelyou must convert to Judaism. Turn the page and consider the referenced scriptures. Will this soon apply to the whole world?

Buy or Sell

Rev 13:9-17 KJV If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 3:18 KJV I (Jesus) counsel thee to buy of megold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayestsee.

Rev 14:9-12 KJV And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendethup for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Mat 24:13 KJV But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Luk 21:19 KJV In your patience possess ye your souls.
 
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Second Time is the Charm

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Hi Post-Tribbers! It's February 21, 2023. Does anyone think the very end times will come in our lifetime or does anyone think it will be in later generations?

I've always thought the Lord's return was post-trib since I got saved a long time ago. I did read about pre-trib theory, but I didn't really see that in the Bible at all. So I've been watching world events through the years and things seem to get worse and worse at a quickening pace.

What got me seriously thinking about the end time prophecies possibly starting to happen in our life time is the covid 19 vaccine that was forced on employees - that people can get fired if they don't take it. I KNOW it's not the mark of the beast, but it seemed like a precursor to it - as if all the governments were testing to see if most people will take it to keep their jobs and be able to get their salaries (and thus be able to buy and sell).

Then I look at national and world events and terrible things are happening quicker and quicker -
1. earthquakes in various places (I know we have them every years, but they seem more powerful lately)
2. wars and rumors of wars - Russia trying to take back its satellite states
3. the corrupting of our children, even at the earliest ages - educational system teaching them about gender fluidity and trans-whatever, even homosexuality
4. artificial race goading - I grew as a kid in the 70s and I was taught that the US was a melting pot. I also lived in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the entire US. It was awesome because it was a natural getting along with everyone no matter where you came from - not this fake victimization of different nationalities and ethnicities, no hating white people either
5. gender wars between men and women - hulky ill-tempered SJW and yucky, weak incels as a result
6. the apparent move towards a one-world government
7. many nations now own nuclear weaponry
8. some churches are starting to accept homosexuality and transgendered folks, divorce is more common, gospel is getting watered down, some church services are more like a rock concert

And even if I think these things are bad now, things are going to actually going to get worse.

So yeah, I think it's in our lifetime. Do any of you think so as well? What are any of you doing to prepare for it if you believe so too?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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4. artificial race goading - I grew as a kid in the 70s and I was taught that the US was a melting pot. I also lived in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the entire US. It was awesome because it was a natural getting along with everyone no matter where you came from - not this fake victimization of different nationalities and ethnicities, no hating white people either
5. gender wars between men and women - hulky ill-tempered SJW and yucky, weak incels as a result
It is interesting that in this age we are seeing so much fighting and waring over "ethnic" issues.
Jesus said:

Matthew 24:7 KJV
7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:...


The word "nation" here is ethnos in the Greek. It is from this we get our word "ethnic."
Race will rise up against race.

ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe;
specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Total KJV occurrences: 164
 
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WilliamLhk

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So yeah, I think it's in our lifetime. Do any of you think so as well? What are any of you doing to prepare for it if you believe so too?
I got out of the system 18 years ago, moved to the country (very rural Colorado mts.), and helped start a community to prepare for these times. But I also teach and blog online, in order to try to prepare others.
Most people, including my relatives, are fairly clueless about prophecies about the End Times, and don't want hear about it. Blind sheep, who trust that the system will somehow just keep on keepin' on.
 
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WilliamLhk

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Pre-Wrath Doctrine in a Nutshell

Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib Summary

What takes place during the first five Seals of Revelation 6 is the same sequence of events prophesied in Matthew 24:5-14: 1) false messiahs and prophets, 2) internecine wars, 3) food scarcity and famine, 4) earthquakes and other chaotic events, and 5) persecution of believers.

Some believers will be killed during this time of the Great Tribulation: these are the saints of the 5th Seal "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9 = Matt. 24:9

Then comes the 6th Seal's heavenly and earthly cataclysms = Matt. 24:29, which come "immediately after the Tribulation."

Then comes Christ in the clouds to gather up his elect = the Rapture, while being seen by every eye (Rev. 1:7), which causes all the unbelievers to mourn, and to flee and hide in fear. Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7, 6:15-17; Is. 2:10-11, 19-21

At that time, after the Rapture of the Church and during the unbelievers' fear, the Great Tribulation has been completed, and "the great day of [God's] wrath came/has come." Rev. 6:17. But "God did not appoint us [the elect] to [His] Wrath" (1 Thes. 5:9), so we've been taken outta here just before. [A great deception is promoted by those who teach that the Tribulation and the Wrath are the same thing: Scripture makes a clear distinction between the two.]

Now at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event is Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, and tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but repentant Israelites of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10

Then John's view is shifted to heaven, and he is shown 'those who came out of the Great Tribulation' (Rev. 7:14), being those just raptured, "standing before the throne and the before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." Rev. 7:9 These fulfill the promise of Luke 21:36: "Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] and to stand before the Son of Man."

Revelation 8 - 19 then tell us what will come upon all who were not ready for the Bridegroom: they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.
 
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BukiRob

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Revelation 13: 7It was also given to him to make war with the [d]saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8 All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been [e]written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone [f]is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the [g]perseverance and the faith of the [h]saints.

(H) literal translation of HOLY ONES.

What you should IMMEDIATELY notice is that the Beast wages war against the holy ones. If you have not accepted Yeshua as lord and savior, by DEFAULT you can't be a "holy one" So this CAN NOT be speaking about the Jews who are yet still under the veil of blindness regarding their promised Messiah. This HAS to be speaking about BELIEVERS. Many Believers will be martyred. Many will fall away. They will fall away because they do not Persevere and because when things happen that differ from what they have been taught the will lose faith.

Many will die of thirst and hunger. You better decide TODAY that if this is how you will glorify GOD you will willingly go. Peter was nailed to a cross. Yeshua told him, that when you are old, they will take you where you do not want to go... indicating that he would be murdered for his faith. Paul was Beheaded. Church tradition (because we don't know definitively from scripture) that MANY believers, disciples, and apostles were slaughtered for their faith...

Why on earth would you believe that you are going to aviod the testing of your faith and the judgement of God upon this earth? We are plainly told in matthew 24 and Revelation that we WILL be tested and many will be killed
 
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WilliamLhk

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What you should IMMEDIATELY notice is that the Beast wages war against the holy ones. ...This HAS to be speaking about BELIEVERS.
Of course. The question is, which ones. Since the Beast does not ascend from the Abyss until after the Rapture, these believers must be Jews and others who come to the faith at or after Christ's Parousia. See post below.
 
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WilliamLhk

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Now at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event is Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, and tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but repentant Israelites of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10 ...

Revelation 8 - 19 then tell us what will come upon all who were not ready for the Bridegroom: they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.
 
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BukiRob

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Of course. The question is, which ones. Since the Beast does not ascend from the Abyss until after the Rapture, these believers must be Jews and others who come to the faith at or after Christ's Parousia. See post below.
They do not come to faith until his return for it is written that not until they proclaim For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’” Matthew 23:39 We are told at his return, that they (the Jews) will Mourn over him as one who mourns over the loss of a 1st born!
 
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WilliamLhk

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They do not come to faith until his return for it is written that not until they proclaim For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’” Matthew 23:39 We are told at his return, that they (the Jews) will Mourn over him as one who mourns over the loss of a 1st born!
Your use of the word "return" is ambiguous. At Jesus' Parousia in the clouds, He will take up the elect of His church, at which time the Jews see Him and mourn, recognizing that they pierced their Messiah. Only later will Jesus return per Zech. 14 and Rev. 19 to deliver the Jews from the Beast and kings of the earth.
 
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BobRyan

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Charles Spurgeon said:

Now that we have our own thread, how do we convince the pre-tribbers that the rapture is really at the end?
[\quote]

Matt 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send His angels.. to gather His elect...from one end of the sky to the other.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It just does not get any easier than that.


I think the tribulation includes both the persecution of the saints and the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 - - so then the rapture is happening at the appearing of Christ as Matt 24 says - and as we see in Rev 19 going to Rev 20:5

It just does not get any easier than that.

I agree. There really is no manipulation of the Greek for another translation to deny it. It's as solid as the Word was God. And I have seen some mighty fine pretzel shapes of retranslation, in order to deny the Word was 'really' God, and then made flesh.

The elect is the elect. It is not unsaved 'elect' nations that did good for the saints. They are the saints in Christ Jesus, being made war with by the first beast.
Yep.
And so, what about the plain Scripture of the saints not being appointed to wrath of God, which the plagues certainly are:

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Them that are caught unaware as wicked servants will be appointed to it. (Matthew 24:51)

I see no Scripture for a 'partial' resurrection, that is 'phased in' over time. Them that have part in the first resurrection of the blessed, are simply them that are members of the body of Christ in particular, or rather in part (1 Cor 12:27):
True - it is all the saved that are raised in the "first resurrection" and this is also described in 1 Thess 4;13-18 which we are to focus on at all funeral services according to Paul.

Just as Israel was protected from the plagues in Egypt - so the saints are protected from the Rev 16 plagues - yet they live on Earth in both cases..
That is how the two witnesses will be resurrected: in one moment they are corpses on the ground, and in the next instant they are standing upon their feet. They were not resurrected to life from the dead while yet laying down, and then stood up on their feet.
I think you are using the futurist model there.
But if the Protestant Reformers are correct to use the Historicist model for prophecy - then the Rev 11 two-witnesses are symbolic of the Old and New Testament -- the Word of God - that was banned in the dark ages and placed on the list of "forbidden books" until the 1960's.
 
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BobRyan

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I have some musings about the Millennium. After the bowls of wrath, wars and terraforming Jesus does upon His return, do you think there will be any church buildings left standing?

If there are, do you think people will still go to church in the Millennium? And if they do what it be like if Jesus walked into your church? Would you just focus your eyes on Him while worshiping, would it seem odd to worship a man?
If the rapture takes place at the appearing of Christ and after the tribulation - then all the saints are in heaven for the millennium.
And if all the unbelievers die at the appearing of Christ as 2 Thess 1:5-8 - then during the millennium we have the Jer 4:23-28 "Desolate Earth" situation on Earth for that 1000 year period of time where as Jermiah says there are "no humans" on Earth.
 
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BobRyan

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Your use of the word "return" is ambiguous. At Jesus' Parousia in the clouds, He will take up the elect of His church
True -

All the saints taken to heaven after the tribulation as Matt 24:29-31 points out.
, at which time the Jews see Him and mourn, recognizing that they pierced their Messiah.
And then as 2 Thess 1:5-8 says -- all the lost are destroyed.

Leaving Earth in the Jer 4:23-28 condition of 'no humans' for 1000 years.
 
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BobRyan

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Given that we all agree with the post-trib rapture on this thread:

Question for the Post-Trib group --

1. What denominations do you know of that sign up for post-trib rapture?

2. What definition do you use for "rapture"??

===================================================================

1 Thess 4:17 "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (rapturo -- Latin) with them to meet the Lord in the air"

Matt 24: "31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

John 14:2-3 "2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

Matt 6 "Our Father who is in heaven"
 
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WilliamLhk

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True -

All the saints taken to heaven after the tribulation as Matt 24:29-31 points out.

And then as 2 Thess 1:5-8 says -- all the lost are destroyed.

Leaving Earth in the Jer 4:23-28 condition of 'no humans' for 1000 years.
2 Thess 1:5-8 is the Rev. 19 return, which comes well after the Rev. 6:16-17 Parousia. First rapture, later punishment of beast and kings of earth.
 
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WilliamLhk

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agreed.

IT is also described as the appearing of Christ in Matt 24:29-31, 1 Thess 4:13-18 -- all of it post-trib, pre-mill
Those two verses refer to the time of the resurrection and rapture.

Whereas 2 Thess 1:5-8 is the Rev. 19 return and fiery judgement of the Beast etc., which takes place long after the rapture. All three verses are post-trib, pre-mill.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Not really.

But we all define wrath differently.
Any one that thinks they will be raptured to Christ before the son of perdition does his thing in 2Thes2, is responded to with the same scripture as I respond to pre tribbers with.

1Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.​
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The Lord says, "I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath." The examples given are "more and more famine ... wild beasts ... and ... plague" in the verses below.

Ezekiel 5: 15-17 (NIV): 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

The earliest these wrathful rebukes are found, in Revelation, are in Rev 6:8, which is part of the 4th seal.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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What does the Bible say about wrath? The Lord says, "I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath." The examples given are "more and more famine ... wild beasts ... and ... plague" in the verses below.

Ezekiel 5: 15-17 (NIV): 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

The earliest these wrathful rebukes are found, in Revelation, are in Rev 6:8, which is part of the 4th seal.
 
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