Indeed, God would be showing partiality and we know He is NOT a God who does for man to receive Him. He reveals Himself [Grace] and it is given to man that he choose, life or death. It is man's decision to make?
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Poll - Once Saved Always Saved
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Indeed, God would be showing partiality and we know He is NOT a God who does for man to receive Him. He reveals Himself [Grace] and it is given to man that he choose, life or death. It is man's decision to make?
A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.
John 6:65 And He said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
without God chosing us .... none of us would be saved ...
And God would be still righteous if all went to Hell
Grace ... GRace
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
No you can't -
Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day"
Who are those that are given to Him?
Jhn 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Once you believe, you are His. Correct?
Once you are His, He cannot lose you. Correct?
If you say no to either one of these, then you are blatantly disregarding the text. I imagine you saying "no" to the second one. And I respond with this-
"that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing"
If He does lose you, then He has failed at doing the Father's will. Therefore, if you believe that Christ can lose you, then you believe Christ cannot succeed at fulfilling the Father's will. It ultimately leads you to a contradiction within the Godhead. Never do the Father, Son or Holy Spirit do something that is in opposition to another's will, for if they did, they would cease to be unified and it would destroy the trinitarian doctrine.
The only way Jesus fulfills the Father's will completely is by keeping all who are His, that is, all who enter into the family of God. If one enters into the family, and by any means leaves, then Jesus has failed. It is the Father's will the Jesus loses no one. Therefore, no one can be lost.
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
See, gr. eido
meanings-
to see
to perceive with the eyes
to perceive by any of the senses
to perceive, notice, discern, discover
to see
i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
to pay attention, observe
to see about something 1d
i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
to inspect, examine
to look at, behold
to experience any state or condition
to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
to know
to know of anything
to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
of any fact
the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
to know how, to be skilled in
to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to
How does one become "born again" if they can't perceive, or know anything about the kingdom in which they are being "born again" into?
One is born again (or regenerated) by the grace of God and nothing else. Only then, can one then come to a knowledge of the kingdom of heaven. I think Jesus was pretty clear on that with Nicodemus.
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Grace from God? No problem. It is His gift to us. But Faith isn't.
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Quoted by ABIC:
Benism... is what we call it...
if you disagree He call you false preachers....
Show me where I have ever called anyone "false preachers". Every intent of every word I type here, is to glorify and honor God, to increase fellowship, to teach and foster maturity in Christ, and to promote Jesus --- with love and kindness.Benism... is what we call it...
if you disagree He call you false preachers....
You have severely misrepresented me, ABIC.
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Quoted by MamaZ:
Faith is not of yourself but is a gift of God.. Grace is poured out on all flesh.. It is the faith that is the gift that seals the deal..
Please show me anywhere that "faith is a gift of God" (and then He JUDGES men for what He Himself DECIDED? How does that make sense?)Faith is not of yourself but is a gift of God.. Grace is poured out on all flesh.. It is the faith that is the gift that seals the deal..
Eph2:8, asserts that SALVATION (by-grace-through-faith) is the gift. Not "faith".
Look at this: Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...
Tell me, "MamaZ" --- are we sealed BEFORE, or AFTER believing? (Please also see Acts11:17...)
Look at Heb11:6:
"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe God IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him."
Does that place God as INITIATOR of man's faith, or RECEIVER?
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Quoted by Yashualover:
Regeneration preceeds faith.
Where? Notice that in Titus3:5-6, regeneration is by the POURED Spirit. Same word as in Acts10:43-47 --- "poured" is "received". Is "AFTER belief". (Acts11:17)Regeneration preceeds faith.
Quote:
The natural man does not recieve the things of God.
"Natural men", can BELIEVE. 1Cor2:14 has been removed forever from OSAS arguments.The natural man does not recieve the things of God.
Quote:
The natural man does not want God neither does he seek after Him.
What about Heb11:6? Matt7:7-8? Jer29:11-13?The natural man does not want God neither does he seek after Him.
Quote:
The natural man is dead in sins and loves his sin.
Natural men, dragged to Jesus, can BELIEVE. It is the RECEIVED Spirit (1Cor2:12) that reveals deeper spiritual things (1Cor2:14).The natural man is dead in sins and loves his sin.
Received = belief.
Quote:
Only those whom the Father has given will be made born again...
Show me anywhere that God purveys conspicuous exclusivity. Those who are given to Jesus, are the same who BELONGED to (believed/loved) God. Read Jn17:6! Only those whom the Father has given will be made born again...
Quote:
only those who have been given a new heart will seek after God and embrace truth.
Huh-uh; nowhere are "new hearts given", before "seeking/believing". Recognize that Ezk36:26-27, is mirrored by 11:18-21 --- and those who turn to God and away from abominations (first!), receive new hearts; AND, those who WILL not turn away from abominations, are in trouble.only those who have been given a new heart will seek after God and embrace truth.
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Maybe I'm being a hardhead, but... what is "not of ourselves" is the entire object of the beginning of the verse, the "by grace you have been saved through faith". This means the grace, as well as the faith, were not of ourselves. Simply any other belief is contradictory to this passage, it is as clear as day.
Dead wrong... just by the flow of the verse you are wrong.
Eph 2:8 For by grace -> you have been "saved through faith"
The grace was given first, so that you may be saved through faith. The faith can't possibly produce grace. The reason faith is the vehicle to salvation is because the grace is already there for those who believe. It has to be, otherwise why are those who have faith saved? What does faith in itself accomplish at all? Nothing apart from God's grace! It's those who believe who are the ones who have been given grace!
No, the preacher only gives you knowledge in the Word of God. The preacher can do nothing to give you faith, he can only lead you towards it. Faith starts with knowledge, therefore his relaying of the Word of God is only a leading, nothing more. Once that knowledge is in your head, then the Holy Spirit can speak to you and use that knowledge to bring you to Him. He first regenerates so that you will have the capability to understand the Scriptures, and exercise that gift of faith which is given by grace. The author of our salvation from beginning to end is God. Remember, faith is a gift. If faith is a gift, then no one can save themselves apart from God's grace.
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Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
See, gr. eido
meanings-
to see
to perceive with the eyes
to perceive by any of the senses
to perceive, notice, discern, discover
to see
i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
to pay attention, observe
to see about something 1d
i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
to inspect, examine
to look at, behold
to experience any state or condition
to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
to know
to know of anything
to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
of any fact
the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
to know how, to be skilled in
to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to
"Perceive with eyes, physically BEHOLD".Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
See, gr. eido
meanings-
to see
to perceive with the eyes
to perceive by any of the senses
to perceive, notice, discern, discover
to see
i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
to pay attention, observe
to see about something 1d
i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
to inspect, examine
to look at, behold
to experience any state or condition
to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
to know
to know of anything
to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
of any fact
the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
to know how, to be skilled in
to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to
Recognize the "double narrative"; occurs twice in the passage. The second:
"Unless born of water and Spirit...
That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit is spirit..."
Spirit = Spirit, and water = flesh.
The first:
"Unless you are born again, you cannot SEE the kingdom of God.
Unless born of water and Spirit, you cannot ENTER the kingdom of God."
"SEE", is "ENTER".
Quote:
How does one become "born again" if they can't perceive, or know anything about the kingdom in which they are being "born again" into?
One is born again (or regenerated) by the grace of God and nothing else. Only then, can one then come to a knowledge of the kingdom of heaven. I think Jesus was pretty clear on that with Nicodemus.
It's clear; "see", is "enter".How does one become "born again" if they can't perceive, or know anything about the kingdom in which they are being "born again" into?
One is born again (or regenerated) by the grace of God and nothing else. Only then, can one then come to a knowledge of the kingdom of heaven. I think Jesus was pretty clear on that with Nicodemus.
Please tell me --- if you perceive that God exclusively elects and saves those few whom He CHOOSES, then what happens at the Final Judgment?
All men answer for their lives; God parades them before Him, and condemns then for...
...what?
For what HE HIMSELF chose/decreed?
No disrespect intended; I cannot figure out how you view the Judgment.
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
<B>
</B>
Benism... is what we call it...Show me where I have ever called anyone "false preachers". Every intent of every word I type here, is to glorify and honor God, to increase fellowship, to teach and foster maturity in Christ, and to promote Jesus --- with love and kindness.
if you disagree He call you false preachers....
You have severely misrepresented me, ABIC.
....as said deciever which are false preachers
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Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Maybe I'm being a hardhead, but... what is "not of ourselves" is the entire object of the beginning of the verse, the "by grace you have been saved through faith". This means the grace, as well as the faith, were not of ourselves. Simply any other belief is contradictory to this passage, it is as clear as day.
New Amercan Standard footnotes "that", with "that salvation".Maybe I'm being a hardhead, but... what is "not of ourselves" is the entire object of the beginning of the verse, the "by grace you have been saved through faith". This means the grace, as well as the faith, were not of ourselves. Simply any other belief is contradictory to this passage, it is as clear as day.
By grace (prepositional phrase)
Through faith (also prepositional phrase)
The gift is 100% of God and nothing of men (Jn1:13)
The receiving is 100% of man (Jn1:12)
As A.T.Robertson says (on Eph2:8), "Grace is GOD'S part, faith is OURS."
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Ben, we've been over this. Only by your disregard for verse 3 do you make see=enter. If Jesus had meant enter the first time, He would have said it. Even so, I can argue from your side and still meet the condition.
Enter, gr. Eiserchomai
to go out or come in: to enter
of men or animals, as into a house or a city
of Satan taking possession of the body of a person
of things: as food, that enters into the eater's mouth
metaph.
of entrance into any condition, state of things, society, employment
to arise, come into existence, begin to be
of men, to come before the public
to come into life
of thoughts that come into the mind
See and enter are quite different. To make one mean the other is not an easy thing to do. If anything, ANYTHING, enter actually means see, not see means enter. The greek is on my side, Ben.
Well, the GWTJ doesn't include any of the elect, only those who are reprobate.
This an entirely different topic, but I will give a brief answer.
God's decrees aren't always active; God can bring about His purposes by second causes, in other words, allowing things to happen. God allows the reprobate to go down the path they had already chosen, that is, sin. God doesn't make them do it, He only allows them to. Thus His decree is in accordance (not according to) what they will instinctively do by their fallen nature.
Thus, God is entirely righteous for punishing sinners. God is not required to save all men, God may do whatever He pleases according to the kind intention of His will, and the ultimate glorification of Himself. If God decides that He will be the most glorified through the election of some to salvation and the passing over of other to Hell, then so be it, and He is righteous and perfect for doing so.
I take no offense, Ben. Unlike many others on these forums, I understand that you do have a set of beliefs like anyone else, and you support them with Scripture. Any idea that is founded within Scripture is worth the time to evaluate, yours and mine alike. So feel free to criticize me as much as you wish, it will only reshape my systematic theology so that it becomes even more in accordance with the truth of God, which is His Word.
Godbless
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Ben, you have contradicted yourself.
You say "that" is salvation as a whole, correct? I believe I saw you said that in an earlier post as well. To that, I agree. I agree with this:
"The gift is 100% of God and nothing of men."
So if the gift is salvation, and it is 100% of God, then:
"Salvation is 100% of God and nothing of men."
???
That's what we are saying - the WHOLE ACT of salvation is of God, it is a gift from Him. It is HIM who made us alive (v 4), not us by our own power. A dead man cannot raise himself-
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
dead, gr. nekros
1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
So God made alive together with Christ
gr. syzōopoieō
1) to make one alive together
a) of Christians, with Christ
So we have this:
While we were "nekros" (read above), God "syzōopoieō" (see above).
It was not you. You had no part in it, other than you were the one being made alive. You cannot have a part in making yourself alive if you are dead. Thus, to get back to the original idea,
Salvation is 100% of God and nothing of men -
Because we cannot "syzōopoieō" while we are "nekros".
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
as I have been doing to youABIC, I still love you and will still preach the truth to you.
but as always you can lead a horse to water but does not mean they will drink
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
You tell me?
Who did God find "favor" with before regeneration? What sort of "favor" are you talking about? God does not seek out men and find favor with men based on what they do...
Rom 9:11 for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
God does not call because of works, but He calls according to His purpose.
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
No man can find favor with God on his own accord-
Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
All of our good deeds cannot possibly win favor, for they are like filthy rags. I understand the verse is in reference to Israel, but:
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
and
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
God does not "favor" one over another before regeneration based on our works, if that is what you are getting at.
Eph 1:3 Blessed {be} the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly {places} in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Not all of humanity, you can't get that here. All humanity has not been "blessed with every spiritual blessing". These are the elect, those who were chosen before the foundation of the world.
How then does one win "favor" with God, based on who he is and what he has done, if He was chosen before he had ever made a choice, or further, ever existed?
P.S. Don't say Noah, because you have no way of telling when Noah's regeneration occurred. You don't know if Noah's favor was based on the fact that he was elect and was "walking with God".
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Is that what I asked or was it rather did men find favor with God?
Mis-construing what others write seems to be contagous with you Calvinists. Not one of you get it right. . . . and repeatedly refuse to get it right. . . .. and then when pressed, simply ignore the question. There are a few masters at this on this forum.
If you quote me correctly I will answer your question.
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Wow, no need to get testy. I thought I answered you fair and square. I was not trying to "misconstrue." I still don't get what your point is, so if you ask the question clearer then I will try to answer it as best I can.
Please, no need to get upset...
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