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Featured Please Stop Saying "Replacement Theology"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    So this is fun .
    @Tree of Life
    Are we talking about the whole spiritual israel vs physical israel thing ?

    I.e. we are the children of Abraham in that we are the children of faith

    Iv never seen a problem...we are.
    So what about physical israel ?
    Its like all things of the flesh..its salvation lays in Jesus only ..by faith.
    So those of the physical Israel who believe and repent ARE the spiritual Israel and those of the physical gentile who believe and repent ARE the spiritual Israel. The TWO become one new man ...
    Id would not call that replacment theology id call it " inclusive theology " ;)
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Indeed, if one were to claim the Church is NOT Physical Israel, then one would have to demonstrate when John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Elisabeth, the 12, the 70, the 3000 at Pentecost, and the great many jews that first rejected but later accepted Jesus Christ, Ceased being Physical Israel.

    If the claim is that Israel rejected the messiah, and therefore Church can not be Israel, Then who is this Jewish church, and why are there all these, thousands upon thousands of JEWISH people following Jesus years before a single gentile joined in with them?

    Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. (Acts 4:4)

    Great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women. Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:11-16)

    And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. (Acts 6:1)

    And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. (Acts 6:7)

    Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law (Acts 21:20)

    they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. (Acts 11:19-21)

    When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like the rush of a violent wind, and ...All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability. Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem...Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say...this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel: 'In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams....So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. (Acts 2)

    And then why do the apostles teach that Jesus fulfilled the promises to the Jews of Israel and Judah?

    "Children of the stock of Abraham...the word of this salvation is sent out to you...We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second psalm, 'You are my Son. Today I have become your father.' "Concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he has spoken thus: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.' Therefore he says also in another psalm, 'You will not allow your Holy One to see decay.' For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid with his fathers, and saw decay. But he whom God raised up saw no decay. Be it known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man is proclaimed to you remission of sins, and by him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:32-39)

    [Jesus] is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn't continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more." In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. (Heb 8:6-13)

    I'm Still waiting for any "Separation Theologist" worth his or her salt, to answer...?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  3. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    The label is a bit of a strawdog and a strawman. While it doesn't represent many people, it can be a accurate for some people (actual Super-cessionists), as my excerpt from "Strawdog bites Strawman" below describes.

    But I have also seen times where people who use this terminology seem to be going in the opposite way of the NT, emphasizing the importance of being Jew and gentile, to the point of creating a division between them!



    Straw Man

    • The straw man fallacy occurs when a person misrepresents anothers view so as to easily discredit it. This can happen intentionally or unintentionally. The image that this fallacy conjures up is that of a person building a straw man just to knock it over. Well, straw men are easier to knock over than real men simply because they are not real.
    • A "straw man" is a fake version of somebody's real argument that's constructed to look like the real argument and to be easy to refute.
    • Deliberately constructing straw men is dishonest. Accidentally constructing them is a mistake anyone can make, but it means a lot of time wasted in writing about the wrong argument.
    • The best defense against straw men is charity. That means make the arguments against your point as strong as they possibly can be and then do your best to knock them down. You should also read the people you're criticizing very carefully.
    The reviewer is right, if you walk the hallowed halls of Western Philosophy you will not find a weighty, dust covered, tome titled the Critique of Pure Subject-Object Metaphysics. nor any writings except Pirsig's where those words are that closely strung together. So Pirsig gathered a bunch of straw of from the big names in philosophy, baled it up, named it Subject-Object Metaphysics and flailed away at it. Classic strawdog. But wait, given Pirsig taught college rhetoric and at the very least is well read in philosophy and logic: How probable is it that he would fail to see a strawman fallacy? Not very, something else must be at work here. Is it possible that we've mistaken a strawman for a strawdog. What you ask is a strawdog? (a web search will not help you here) A strawdog is a Trojan strawman.

    Straw Dog occurs when:
    • The straw dog occurs when a deliberately constructed straw man turns out to be the truth.
    • Deliberately constructing a straw dog requires brutal honesty.
    • The best defense against straw dogs are humility. And an open mind.
    Why did straw dog become a necessary being? Let's start with the second most popular philosophical book, after ZMM, The Story of Philosophy - (Will Durant-Simon & Schuster 1926, 2nd Edition 1954) and add to it Death of the Soul, From Descartes to the Computer (William Barrett-Anchor Press/Doubleday 1986) with these two books you have a highly condensed history of Western Philosophy from around 600 AD to the present. In the preface of the 2nd edition of TSoP you find:

    "philosophy..which had once summoned all sciences to its aid in making a coherent image of the world..found its task of coordination too stupendous for its courage, ran away from all these battlefronts of truth, and hid itself in recondite and narrow lanes, timidly secure from the issues and responsibilities of life."
    While hiding there according to Barrett:(DoTS, Foreword xvi)

    "..the theories of mind that spout among philosophers become more paradoxical and at odds with each other...our understanding of human consciousness in this time has become more fragmentary and bizarre, until at present we seem in danger of losing any intelligent grasp of the human mind altogether."
    In plain English: Philosophers you had over 2500 years to craft a meaningful and relevant basis for reality. You blew it! Oh what about that strawdog? On page 11 of Death of a Soul Barrett says:

    " The rift between ourselves and the cosmos-between subject and object- is, then, one troubling legacy that the seventeenth century bequeathed to us. Contemporary philosophers, of all schools, and in differing ways, have protested against this subject-object spilt. The would like, if possible, to get rid of these troubling notions altogether."
    How could, a big nosed, poorly postured drifter, itinerant computer manual writer, multiple academic dropout, certified mental institution graduate, dare to propose a way to heal that centuries old rift ? And then disguise it in two novels published over 15 years apart

    But he does. He steps back takes a broad and general overview, traces this rift back to the very roots of Western Philosophy, and clearly explains that it is the de facto metaphysical base upon which all was built. But it was not and is not a necessary split. You all have seen it, you all have protested against it, but you all were afraid to name it. Thus the strawdog bites.



    MoQ: Forum -- Strawdog bites Strawman
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  4. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    But...
    While including BOTH physical repentant Israel and physicaly repentant gentile in "spiritual" Israel
    Did i not exlude the unrepentant from "spiritual" Israel ?
    In the end which stands? The physical or the spiritual ?
    It is the Spiritual.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yes, You did.
    Which is why I began my post with the affirmation “Indeed”.
    Yours was an excellent post.
    I am in agreement.
     
  6. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    i apologise . i misunderstood
     
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul speaks against Replacement theology:

    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    Paul specifically speaks against any replacement beliefs. The natural branches were not broken off to make room for the new ones. They were only removed because of unbelief. Room upon this tree is unlimited so no room needs to be made to fit more branches in.

    Belief either gets you grafted into this tree or keeps you upon it. Unbelief either gets you removed from this tree or keeps you from being grafted upon it.

    It all comes down to who believes and who does not and this is concerning faith in Jesus Christ.


    Gill:

    Romans 11:19
    Thou wilt say then,.... This is an objection which the apostle foresaw the Gentiles would make against what he had said, and in favour of their boasting;


    Barnes:

    The branches were broken off ... - The objection is, that the branches were broken off in order that others might be grafted in. To this Paul replies in the next verse, that this was not the reason why they were rejected, but their unbelief was the cause.


    Replacement theology is false. Removal theology is truth.
     
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  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Rather, Paul teaches that what people "Call" replacement theology today, is nothing of the sort..

    Correct.
    The Olive Tree is True Israel. The branches broken off are the citizens of Israel that rejected Jesus and his jewish apostles. The branches grafted on represent the gentile converts who chose to accept the message of Jesus and the jewish apostles.

    That's True Israel, and that true Israel began accepting gentile converts at around Acts 10. Those converts are called "wild branches grafted in" to True Israel. Moreover, it was the persecution by the unbelieving portion that caused the gospel to go to the gentiles, which is all Paul is saying. The gentiles received full inheritance as Israel with the Jews no later than the end of St. Paul's missionary work.

    There is no "replacement", that is correct.
    The Church in no way REPLACES Israel, the Church ALWAYS WAS , and now still is, ISRAEL.
    Unbelieving natural branches were cut off, Believing natural branches stayed put.
    (the apostles, John, Joseph and Mary, Elizabeth, the 70, the three thousand at Pentecost, etc). Wild olive branches were added in to the people of God. That is true Israel.

    Eph 2:12-14 says that believing gentiles, once formerly separated from the commonwealth of Israel, were added to it. Thus the "wall of partition" that had formerly separated the commonwealth of Israel from gentiles was taken down. That is true Israel: the believing Jews with their believing gentile converts added in to their body.

    Moses says that the unbelieving sons of Abraham are "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24), and so did Jesus (John 8:39-47).

    Anyone can be grafted into True Israel by following Jesus. It is by following Jesus that one joins true, covenanted Israel. (Unbelieving jews, just like unbelieving gentiles, have no covenant with God)
     
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  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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  10. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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  11. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Where things get muddy is not realizing the covenant with Jacob (Israel) is a national covenant not a individual salvation thing. The redeemed of the body of Messiah is not a nation per Paul in Romans 10:19.

    In some cases, this stuff even presupposes there were 10 "lost" tribes. Well just in the NT, 4 of the 12 are represented. And in 2 Chronicles 11 and many other passages, many of the northern tribes migrated south and joined with Judah. One of these events later happened over 100 years after Assyria had taken the northern kingdom. And archeological records of King Sargon shows that he only deported a little over 27,000 from the northern kingdom and 50 chariots.

    The tribes had become intermingled to such an extent, that after the Babylonian exile when Ezra brought his group out of Babylon he referred to the group as Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah, when he brought his group out, called the group Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

    And while Paul made it clear that the redeemed of Messiah is not a nation, he also stated quite clearly that with the national identity of Israel....

    Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

    Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

    Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
    And Israel My elect,

    I have even called you by your name;
    I have named you, though you have not known Me.

    It is as a national or corporate identity that they are elect. Of course, not all in that national identity are redeemed. Been that way since the exodus from Egypt. But that doesn't mean that those who were not part of that national, corporate entity who are now redeemed, supersede the entity. The redeemed are grafted in to the tree to be fed by the root of faith because of the faith of the Patriarchs, but they don't get to lay claim of ownership.
     
  12. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Who are the Virgins in Matthew 25?
     
  13. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Think that's a common biblical symbol for faithful. Israelites. Who don't stray from their God. Much like the virtuous woman of Revelation 12 juxtaposed against the sinful harlot of Revelation 18.

    All of which focuses on faith first and so admits a spiritual interpretation.
     
  14. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Except five of them were foolish which counters their virginity and "faithfulness".
     
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  15. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, they knew the bride was coming in, they were still waiting for him right. So they were faithful, but maybe not faithful enough?
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm afraid he tells them he doesn't know them when they finally return so I find it likely he never knew them.
     
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  17. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Superficially faithful Then?
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not sure it's even about faith. In the context of the parable the foolish were clearly invited and meant to be there but there was something wrong with them from the beginning. Anyways, we are a bit away from the Rt concept so I propose removal theology is true, replacement theology is false since no one is replaced. Everyone has their own place.
     
  19. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I would contend it is a exposition on Ezekiel 20:37-38 regarding physical Israel. Just like the sheep and goats judgement of Matthew 25 is an exposition on Joel 3 which is the judgement of the nations regarding their treatment of Israel. Neither of which has anything to do with the redeemed of Messiah.

    Faith does play into it, but it is a judgement of physical Israel at the second coming. The wise ones will go in to the Messianic kingdom to repopulate, the foolish are cast away.

    So it shows there is a delineation between Israel and the church. The Church is not physical, corporate Jacob (Israel). Individual redeemed in the body of Messiah are sons of Abraham in terms of trusting in Messiah by faith, but that does not imply that they have superseded corporate Israel. The Body of Messiah is not a nation, per Paul in Romans 10 as opposed to Israel.

    It is the mixing of corporate identity with individual salvation that messes the picture up. We all know that everyone in the a local church is not truly redeemed, but it is the redeemed that make up the church. So the brick and mortar building "church" is not justified, it is individuals that are justified.

    The same thing applies to national, corporate Israel. Except in this case, the covenants were made with the corporate people of Israel, those that had faith and those who did not. Both the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant proclaimed in Jeremiah were made with corporate Jacob (Israel). It is not an individual justification thing like with believers of whom each is justified by placing their trust in Yeshua.

    Those who trust in Messiah are joined to the root of the Patriarchs by faith, but that in no way means those who trust in Messiah have replaced anyone. They make up a unique identity, the Body of Messiah.

    When one does a thorough study of what the kingdom is all about, when it started, how it must be restored, etc, a lot of this stuff clears itself up. The kingdom started in Genesis 1, when Adam and Eve were told to reign over the earth and subdue it. They failed. The future Messianic Kingdom will be ruled over by the new Adam (Messiah per 1 Corinthians 15) and his Bride, the redeemed (Revelation 2:26-27). The kingdom was offered when Yeshua came the first time, but was rejected by the leadership of corporate Israel. The offer was withdrawn in Matthew 23:37-39, which set the stage for what would befall them in Matthew 24 - 25.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Which ones are you asking about? Wise or foolish?
     
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