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Featured Please Stop Saying "Replacement Theology"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    How would you know that without knowing each one's personal family history?
    Yes I am.

    Definition of ethnic from Webster:
    "...relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background ethnic minorities ethnic enclaves" -------"relating to, or characteristic of a minority ethnic group ethnic neighborhoods ethnic foods"
    noun ........"a member of an ethnic group especially : a member of a minority group who retains the customs, language, or social views of the group"
    No. Where have I said that?
    No I did not.
    The easy answer is "you've got to be kidding".
    Of course. Who has said otherwise? And It probably won't until the Tribulation or perhaps just before.
    No - I have not. I have done that no more so than God did that with Jesus who was descended from Rahab.

    Many are likely the decedents of what you are calling Pre Desolation Hebrews though. Particularly that is true for the 144,000.

    God makes it a point to tell us that these are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel. Apparently He has had a way of keeping track of lineage for the last few thousand years.

    Why do you find it so hard to believe that close knit group like the Jews living in a hostile "Christian" world could maintain fairly pure bloodlines in many instances?

    LOOK - stop playing games like this. The point is that God can literally fulfill His promises to the Jews as a nation and still call the church Israel.

    Your problem is to be found not in any discussion of genetics but in your spiritualizing or your ignoring the many clearly pronounced prophecies concerning national Israel - both in the O.T. and the N.T.

    Please address why one cannot incorporate both a view of the church as Israel and God's dealing with a national Israel in the end times.

    It seems to me that what is often charged against "replacement theology" is perhaps appearing in you. I.e. - a form of anti antisemitism. I hope that that isn't the case.

    It may well be that attitudes like that as well as the slip shod theology concerning the basics of salvation by grace displayed by many "replacement" types will play a part in God turning His attention from the gentiles of the world and again concentrating on the Jews.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  2. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

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    Joshua 1

    Keep to the subject.
     
  3. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Not when the Scripture stands on it's own authority it isn't.
     
  4. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

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    Except this particular passage doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  5. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2 Timothy 3:16

    If you don't believe that; that is not my problem!
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I do not have to prove a negative. They are claimants without proof, and the onus is squarely upon the claimant.
    No Jew alive today can trace his lineage to a single pre desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.

    If there were, you could name one.

    thanks for that.

    What proof have you seen that leads you to accept ANY modern Jewish person is related in any way to any pre desolation Hebrew. Or, do you just accept the claims of any claimant?

    Nope, I'm as serious as a Heart Attack.
    I even gave you some examples of Jewish Law for you to choose from, because I have no idea which Jewish Law you are referring to:
    10 Commandments?
    Leviticus?
    Deuteronomy?
    Babylonian Talmud?

    Which one?

    what does that mean?

    How is that Likely in your view?
    Abraham lineage
    DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
    Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
    Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
    Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
    Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
    http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
    https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
    https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

    Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

    Which promises would you say pertain to these 3000 souls:
    Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. (Acts 2:41)

    Israel is Jesus and His Jewish Followers with Gentiles grafted in.

    Because there is no national Israel today that qualifies Biblically as National Israel.
    The Mormons have as equally valid a claim be National Israel (a claim they do indeed make) as the Modern Israelis. What evidence makes you believe one group's claim but reject the other?

    My Claiming citizenship in National Israel and Claiming status as a Jew is Antisemitic?
    How do you figure that?

    The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

    Why not Show me the scriptures that teach who is a Jew and Israelite and who is not. Otherwise, I will have to conclude that your position is that, in order to avoid falling into antisemitism, ANYONE who claims to be a Jew MUST be believed and supported in their claim, even (and especially) in absence of ANY shred of evidence, religious, genetic, cultural, or otherwise that they, in fact, ARE a Jew as the Bible defines "Jew"...

    Therefore, If you are rejecting my personal claims to be a Jew, be a member of National Israel, and an Heir to the land... are you an antisemite for doing so? I hope not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  7. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

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    Okey doke.

    How's it going with you following all 613 OT commandments?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And why do you believe Joshua 1 is correct? What extra Biblical Evidence do you have from outside sources that this promise was delivered and was indeed a promise from God?
    If you didn't want anyone examining and scrutinizing the implications of your view on Argumentum ad Verecundiam, you probably shouldn't have introduced it into the discussion.

    But now that you have, sorry friend, I will examine and scrutinize it for our readers.
     
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It's all the same land:

    Genesis 15:18-19 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land—from the river of Egypt to the great River Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”

    Exodus 23:31 And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates

    Deuteronomy 1:7-8 Resume your journey and go to the hill country of the Amorites; go to all the neighboring peoples in the Arabah, in the hill country, in the foothills,a in the Negev, and along the seacoast to the land of the Canaanites and to Lebanon, as far as the great River Euphrates.
    See, I have placed the land before you. Enter and possess the land that the LORD swore He would give to your fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to their descendants after them.”

    Joshua 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun shall be your territory

    By Joshua 13, we are told what portions of the land remained to be possessed:

    Joshua 13:1-7 Now Joshua was old and advanced in years, and the LORD said to him, “You have become old and advanced in years, but very much of the land remains to be possessed. This is the land that remains:

    All the territory of the Philistines and the Geshurites, from the Shihor east of Egypt to the territory of Ekron on the north (considered to be Canaanite territory)—that of the five Philistine rulers of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath, and Ekron, as well as the Avvites;

    to the south, all the land of the Canaanites, from Mearaha of the Sidonians to Aphek, as far as the border of the Amorites;
    the land of the Gebalites;

    and all Lebanon to the east, from Baal-gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo-hamath.
    All the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon to Misrephoth-maim—all the Sidonians—


    I Myself will drive out before the Israelites. Be sure to divide it by lot as an inheritance to Israel, as I have commanded you. Now therefore divide this land as an inheritance to the nine tribes and the half-tribe of Manasseh.”

    By Joshua 21, the author states that all the land was given to Israel that God had sworn to the fathers, and that not even one promise failed.

    Joshua 21:43-45 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.

    By 1 kings 4, we see that Israel did, in fact, rule over the territory, from Egypt to the Euphrates

    1 kings 4:21-24 Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.
    Solomon’s provision for one day was thirty cors of fine flour and sixty cors of meal, ten fat oxen, and twenty pasture-fed cattle, a hundred sheep, besides deer, gazelles, roebucks, and fattened fowl. For he had dominion over all the region west of the Euphrates

    Are not a believer? If your not, then I understand your argument.

    Do you believe the Bible is fallible? If you do, then I understand your argument.


    Appeal to Authority Fallacy: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered.

    What is the claim? That Israel was given all of the land by God as promised to the fathers

    Who is the authority that makes this claim? The author of the book of Joshua from the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit.


    When the Authority is the word of God and it is 2 Christians debating, then "appeal to authority" is not a logical fallacy, as both Christians believe the word of God to be true.

    Appeal to Authority, in regards to Biblical discussions, is only a logical fallacy if one of the people in the discussion doesn't believe the Bible to be true.


    ***You bringing up this argument type leads me to think that you believe the Bible is fallible. However, if you don't believe the Bible is fallible, then appeal to authority is not a logical fallacy for the discussion.

    Examples in regards to Israel?

    Unfortunately, there is not a lot of archeological evidence for an invisible boundary of land promised to an ancient group of Israelites outside of the Bible.

    Nor could anyone prove or disprove, using evidence outside of the Bible, if Israel, from the time of Joshua until King Solomon, inhabited all of the land promised to Abraham.

    Fortunately enough, for those who do believe the Bible, we can see that God fulfilled his promises.


    Joshua 21:43-45 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. And the Lord gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.
     
  10. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

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    I do not believe it is correct. Show me where I said I did.
     
  11. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

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    Glad you understand.
    Well, there you go then.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    If you don't believe the whole Land as described in Joshua 1 is true and correct, then what is your point in claiming Ancient Israel Never possessed the land as Joshua 1 Describes?

    If your claim is they never possessed the land, AND, they were NEVER promised they would possess the land.. then what is your objection exactly?
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yet On Your CF profile, you identify as Christian.
    What's that about?
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Ah, so you believe the Bible is fallible. Well, looks like we don't see eye to eye.

    Then yes, if you believe the bible is fallible and full of errors then my arguments are "appealing to authority" within the context of our discussion and based on my belief that the Bible is not full of errors.

    I use Christian forums to discuss theology with others who believe the Bible does not error. As such, we would probably have a more fruitful discussion on a forum that does not discuss theological beliefs based on scripture.


    Silver lining, at least we agree, that outside the Bible, using archeological evidence, it is impossible to prove or disprove if ancient Israel lived within an invisible boundary.
     
  15. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Is it then your view that the 144,000 we see in the Tribulation that the Lord identifies as 12,000 each from the 12 tribes of Israel not only can't prove their Jewish lineage but the Lord can't either?
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Nope. They could and did.
     
  17. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    This would only happen if CF Admin changed the flaming rules to include not using labels that dismiss other points of view. As a result, it would be difficult to discuss anything on here. So it probably wouldn't happen.
     
  18. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    Most of the twelve tribes of Israel are gentile, actually.
     
  19. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    But you say replacement theology, I say common sense, poetato - potahto
     
  20. A Realist

    A Realist Living in Reality

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    Yes, I do.
    If you think I can't be because I believe the bible if fallible, you'd be wrong.
     
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