OSAS Discussion

[Bible Highlighter]

aiki says, quote, “Salvation is entirely a work of God. He draws” John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”


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I now ask, what mixtake can we see there that aiki has made? Aiki failed to harmonize his rational of John 6:44 with the very next verse, John 6:45, which makes it rather plain how God draws: John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

Thus we see that it is just as Paul spoke at Romans 10:13-14 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

Thus the mystery is beginning to leave out of what Jesus said at John 6:44. We have learned that to hear the truth about the Father kindness draws us to him if we are so inclined to be drawn to kindness. And this harmonizes with what Paul tells us at Romans 2:4 “Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?”

Now some versions butcher Romans 2:4 with their biased preconceived beliefs influencing their translation, such as does the Bible In Basic English, which says in the second half of that verse, “not seeing that in his pity God's desire is to give you a change of heart?” But that translation is untrue to the meaning of the Greek word which the KJV translates “goodness.” That word is “chrestos”, which references the useful manner or morals of God that attract us to him. Even in the KJV that word is sometimes translated “kindness.” The Geneva Bible translates it “bountifulness.” Tyndale translated it as “kindness.” Weymouth New Testament translates that verse, “Romans 2:4 Or is it that you think slightingly of His infinite goodness, forbearance and patience, unaware that the goodness of God is gently drawing you to repentance?” But even Weymouth's translation misses the point mildly that Paul is saying that God draws us by the goodness of his kindness. Indeed it is a matter of what John said at 1 John 4:19 “We love him, because he first loved us.”

God is not usurping our freewill, nor is he calling only those he foreknew would respond to him. God is giving us all the chance to listen and learn about him and by what we learn, be drawn to him if we would only choose to let ourselves be drawn by him. Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

James 4:8 “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.”

Rather than God choosing only certain men by means of this doctrine called Omniscience, we are told in how he is able to know these ones: at 1 Chronicles 28:9 “And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.'

When God searches man's hearts what is he looking for? Psalms 25:9 “The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.”

Jeremiah 17:10 “I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”

I will comment on more of what aiki said a small bite at a time. He put forward much which needs to be re-evaluated.

Edit: I should add one more thing to this post before retiring. And that is that Jesus told us how that drawing of God works and why it does not always work.

John 3:20-21 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I agree with what you said here. For Calvinism is unbiblical - big time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for your response. I do not see it presented this way. A lot of the individuals that I have know on this forum for years now, do not veiw salvation this way. I personally see God's grace as more of a forbearance of sin than a licence to sin. You are accountable to your actions. I also do not hold to the notion that someone that is saved can just become unsaved. That individual would have to depart from God, or have never truly known God. So it is more of a giving up your salvation than a losing of faith. It is a condition of the heart. To me it is like the rich man that came to Jesus. He wanted to follow Christ, but when he was faced with giving up all he had to do so, his faith waned. He gave up his faith. Jesus was not worth his worldly possessions, and at that moment he still was not saved.

Likewise, you have to give up your former life. You cannot live in perpetual unrepented sin and be of God. That is where the forbearance of God comes in as grace. I was saved in my sin. Deeply entrenched in sin dealing with my own sexuality as a bisexual. At the same time living in the world completely contrary to God. The day before I asked Jesus into my live I was practicing Gardnerian Wicca. Witchcraft. It took me decades to get through all of this. I was saved through all of it. I stumbled and fell, lied, fought, yelled and screamed at God, But I was still saved, Because I continued on. I am not perfect. I sinned as a Christian, and I have felt like the lowest piece of human scum on this earth for doing so. I have often said that I have made Paul a liar, I am the chiefest of sinners. I deserve hell. I honestly believe God would be just to do so. And yet, I am saved due to God's grace.

To me the disconnect is that God saves us in our sin, and raises us up as his child from it. God's grace did not give me license to sin. Instead it gave me the liberty to learn how not to sin as I stumbled around learning in my walk with God. I was saved then and I am now. But here is the clencher. It took God seriously. I turned from him many times but I repented and continued on. I denounced my sin, and confessed Jesus. I think this is where some who believe salvation can be lost get messed up. I could have cursed God and walked away, but that would have been my decision to renounce God for my sins. Yet never once was I at risk of losing my salvation as I worked through my sin. Now that I am here, I would literally have to go against the holy spirit in me, grieving the spirit that I can feel within me, to betray God. It is nigh on impossible to lose your salvation once you have committed yourself to God. You must betray him, by denouncing him.

Please read again what I had said on the list of the different versions of OSAS. I had provided 3 different versions of OSAS. The type of believer you think exists here is probably OSAS type #3. But I do not get that impression. I get the strong impression that many of them are OSAS type #2. and a few others here are OSAS type #1. If you need me to show you those posters who believe in OSAS type #1 here at CF, I can do that for you. Anyways, I have studied OSAS a long time, so I know how to spot the different types of OSAS believers. It appears that you were not even aware that there are different levels of OSAS.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you're doing here is reporting on various individuals' understanding about what the term 'OSAS' (itself a colloquialism) means when asked for their own interpretation. Take any important Christian doctrine and it would be easy to come up with Type #1, Type #2 , etc. in just the same way. But of course, you don't find churches defining the concept like that.

I don't care how churches define things. I have a brain and intelligence to define things on my own without somebody else force feeding me what to believe. I can make intelligent and logical observations on my own. This is exactly what I have done with OSAS. Granted, another believer helped to lay the ground work, but I had perfected it with adding "Mid Range OSAS" and adding the category of those who say they can sin and still be saved and yet they deny OSAS. The heart of the problem with most here is that folks are saying that they can sin and still be saved (With the exception of OSAS type #3). The problem with OSAS type #3 is that it makes one doubt the promises of God in regards to forgiveness. For if they are not walking holy, then they are going to think they were never saved to begin with. Granted, a believer is not saved if they are abiding in sin and not repenting of such sins. The point here is that they may think their conversion was never real and that they never walked with God. This is a big problem, as well. So all versions of OSAS are false. It is just the two most popular versions that are the most wrong because they violate God's goodness or morality.

 

[Albion]

I don't care how churches define things.

Probably not, but when all of those who understand these things are on one side, and on the other we have a lone poster whose credentials in the matter of OSAS amount to "I have a brain and intelligence to define things on my own"...I have good reason for going with those who actually know about OSAS.

It would be a good idea for you to consider what the experts have to say about it, too.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Probably not, but when all of those who understand these things are on one side, and on the other we have a lone poster whose credentials in the matter of OSAS amount to "I have a brain and intelligence to define things on my own"...I have good reason for going with those who actually know about OSAS.

It would be a good idea for you, also, to consider what the experts have to say about it.

I have been at this discussion a long time. This is not my first rodeo. The so called experts do not know what they are talking about and they are simply changing the plain meaning of what God's Word says.

 

[Albion]

The so called experts do not know what they are talking about and they are simply changing the plain meaning of what God's Word says.

And you know this...how? Oh, it's because all the theologians and ministers cannot understand Bible as well as you can. That's what you told us

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let me give you an example: I used to love watching Chuck Missler's videos. He had a lot of insightful teachings. Especially on making a good case on defending God's Word as being divine in origin. But the problem I encountered with Chuck is that he believes in Eternal Security. I have heard his points on Eternal Security before and they are totally ridiculous. His interpretation goes beyond what the text is actually saying and does not make any sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And you know this...how? Oh, it's because all the theologians and ministers cannot understand Bible as well as you can. That's what you told us

Scripture says,
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

In other words, my friends....

BELIEVE.

Believe God's Word plainly in what it says.
Do not seek to change what it says because you do not like it.
Just accept it for what it says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And you know this...how? Oh, it's because all the theologians and ministers cannot understand Bible as well as you can. That's what you told us

Jesus says, "Beware of the scribes."
The scribes are those who tran-SCRIBED the Scriptures.
Scholars today do the same thing.
Some of them create Modern Versions that seeks to corrupt God's Word.
So we as believers are to take heed to Jesus's words when He says, "Beware of the scribes."

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Yeah, we have to pray for him (as hard as that may be sometimes).
For we are commanded to love, do good, and pray for our enemies.
Granted, while I am praying good things for Trump spiritually, I am also praying that he resigns and or gets impeached. But I am wishing him nothing but good things to him in Christ Jesus (even though I am not happy in as a leader for our nation).

I read somewhere that if it were “possible “ for one to lose his Salvation,he for sure would do so.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

So sorry..... I see what you mean. I misunderstood. I changed my vote, but I do not personally believe in OSAS, nor do I believe that faith is more important than works.

there are no good works apart from faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God and without Him we can do nothing.

 

[Phil 1:21]

And you know this...how? Oh, it's because all the theologians and ministers cannot understand Bible as well as you can. That's what you told us

Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Let me give you an example: I used to love watching Chuck Missler's videos. He had a lot of insightful teachings. Especially on making a good case on defending God's Word as being divine in origin. But the problem I encountered with Chuck is that he believes in Eternal Security. I have heard his points on Eternal Security before and they are totally ridiculous. His interpretation goes beyond what the text is actually saying and does not make any sense.

Then do you not believe that you have eternal life as John 3:16 says? And if you don't have it now, you deny that one and many more are true that says the believer has eternal life like this one say they have it now, 1John3:3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And if they have eternal life now that means it is eternal. Pretty simple to just believe God who cannot lie as opposed to someone's belief.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I read somewhere that if it were “possible “ for one to lose his Salvation,he for sure would do so.

That's close to what Scripture says.
Actually MOST do (not get saved, or do lose their salvation, or do lose their chance to be saved) .
Not "for sure" as in all; only most/"many"/ , as written throughout Scripture.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Paul said if you believe his Gospel you will be saved....was Paul a liar

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Paul said if you believe his Gospel you will be saved....was Paul a liar

Whoever rejects the messenger sent by YHWH rejects Yeshua also.
Whoever rejects YHWH'S Word also has already rejected YHWH.

Don't even make such statement as quoted, even if it is "/s" (sarcastic) or other figure of speech,
for we will be judged by[or for each of] all of our words.

(oh, btw, sorry - first reading thru I read "Paul was a liar" then right after posting re-reading saw it was a question "was Paul..." )

No Paul was not a liar, though I once told someone even Paul WAS (once) a liar, before he was redeemed, as it is written "all men are liars..." and many other Scriptures verifying the deceitfulness and sinfulness of men before they are purchased by the blood of the Lamb, in Yahweh's Plan and Salvation ...

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Not stating that anyone has called Paul a liar, just adding another post to show my beliefs.

Of course Paul did not lie, but the scripture does say that some believed Jesus but did not confess Him as Lord. Those He said that did not confess Him before man He would not confess them to the Father. John 12:42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue. He also said that those who believed in Him would abide in His word. That is present tense abide, a Holy Spirit indwelt believer will never leave the faith; John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” If the text is read in full one will see some of these wanted to kill Him. But as Eph 1:13-14 shows, after hearing the word believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God as a guarantee until the redemption of the body. Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. And this text shows who bought who; 1 Cor 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then do you not believe that you have eternal life as John 3:16 says? And if you don't have it now, you deny that one and many more are true that says the believer has eternal life like this one say they have it now, 1John3:3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And if they have eternal life now that means it is eternal. Pretty simple to just believe God who cannot lie as opposed to someone's belief.

Only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So eternal life is conditioned upon abiding in Christ and His good ways. For Jesus tells us to abide in Him and to abide in His words.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 8:51 says,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.”

It is not those who sin and still be saved while believing on Jesus will never see death.