OSAS Discussion

[GingerBeer]

It's more of a matter of gradual loss of faith than it is committing a certain percentage of sins and losing salvation. A high school classmate of mine still in believes in Christ, but more less thinks of St. Paul as a heretic. A college classmate has now embraced universalism. In either case, I don't think they were living self-indulgent lives. They just somehow came to disbelieve to some degree.

Do you think that either of them has lost their salvation?

 

[GingerBeer]

James is correct because works will follow saving faith,as sure as night follows day....if works save ,what works did the repentant thief on the cross perform?

James says "Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?" in James 2:24. He asks a fair question. Do you see it that way?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

James says "Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?" in James 2:24. He asks a fair question. Do you see it that way?

Been up all night.....nap time here....get back to you later with arguments that will reduce you you to a quivering pile of mush! Lol

 

[HereIStand]

Do you think that either of them has lost their salvation?

I would hope not. Short of someone outright denying the deity or bodily resurrection of Christ, we have to suspend judgment.

 

[Buzz_B]

GingerBeer asked HereIStand:

Do you think that either of them has lost their salvation?

One cannot lose what they do not yet have. In Christ what we have is “the hope of salvation” which hope helps to guard our thinking from getting careless. We do not yet have salvation itself.

“But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.” - 1 Thessalonians 5:8

It is ridiculous to say we actually already have salvation and at the same time say that we should hope for it. What they are in peril of losing is that hope of ever obtaining salvation.

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain." - 1 Corinthians 9:24

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." - 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I want to understand the disconnect here. I almost feel as we are arguing the same point from a differnt perspective. So tell me what you think. I am thinking that if we have a more defined and stated position, we may have a better conversation seeing that an individual that has voted has stated their belief. There is then no question from where they are coming from once it has been made known.

There are different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. I have heard one guy admit to me in person he could mow down a crowd of people and yet still be saved while doing so.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. This view is basically saying you can justify a little bit of sin as being okay with God. However, how is doing a little bit of evil different than doing a lot of evil? Doing evil regardless of the frequency is still wrong.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. But falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). The problem with this belief is that it makes one doubt they were ever saved to begin with if they turned to God. It will make one doubt the promises of God of their initial forgiveness. It also denies the reality of believers who have fallen away from the faith and thereby we do not need to warn believers of sin and that it can separate them from God for all eternity.

There are even those who believe they can sin and still be saved and yet they deny OSAS. So we live in a crazy world where people think we can do evil in be in God's good graces on some level or that we do not need to care about warning others about the gravity of the true reality of sin.

 

[Oldmantook]

My thinking is that the issue is simply whether or not what is called Eternal Security (of the believer) is true or not. The discussions that center on this matter that's usually called OSAS get wrapped up in the debate over Predestination, which complicates things.

But put simply, does God keep those who believe--those who are born again or however you would word it--safe, for good? There are enough Bible verses that appear to say exactly this, that I am inclined to accept as true the concept of the Eternal Security of the believer.

Given your view, I am curious then of how you would explain the reference to "twice dead" in Jude 12.

 

[Albion]

There are different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. I have heard one guy admit to me in person he could mow down a crowd of people and yet still be saved while doing so.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. This view is basically saying you can justify a little bit of sin as being okay with God. However, how is doing a little bit of evil different than doing a lot of evil? Doing evil regardless of the frequency is still wrong.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. But falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). The problem with this belief is that it makes one doubt they were ever saved to begin with if they turned to God. It will make one doubt the promises of God of their initial forgiveness. It also denies the reality of believers who have fallen away from the faith and thereby we do not need to warn believers of sin and that it can separate them from God for all eternity.

There are even those who believe they can sin and still be saved and yet they deny OSAS. So we live in a crazy world where people think we can do evil in be in God's good graces on some level or that we do not need to care about warning others about the gravity of the true reality of sin.

What you're doing here is reporting on various individuals' understanding about what the term 'OSAS' (itself a colloquialism) means when asked for their own interpretation. Take any important Christian doctrine and it would be easy to come up with Type #1, Type #2 , etc. in just the same way. But of course, you don't find churches defining the concept like that.

 

[Albion]

Given your view, I am curious then of how you would explain the reference to "twice dead" in Jude 12.

Apparently, it refers to the same thing we find in Revelation 20. That is to say, a person who, after physical death, must face judgment and be sentenced to "the second death," the lake of fire. However, there are interpreters, I know, who see it a bit differently and think the meaning is that a non-believer who "gets religion" only to die without a genuine faith in Christ as Lord and Savior has become dead for the second time.

 

[Willing-heart]

God did not write our name in the book of life in pencil. He does not erase our name every time we sin, then writes it back in when we repent. When God writes our name in the book of life, He writes it in the precious blood of Jesus. There is no ink that is more permanent and indelible than the blood of our Saviour, Christ Jesus.

Blessed Assurance {Part II}

 

[LostMarbels]

There are different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. I have heard one guy admit to me in person he could mow down a crowd of people and yet still be saved while doing so.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. This view is basically saying you can justify a little bit of sin as being okay with God. However, how is doing a little bit of evil different than doing a lot of evil? Doing evil regardless of the frequency is still wrong.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. But falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). The problem with this belief is that it makes one doubt they were ever saved to begin with if they turned to God. It will make one doubt the promises of God of their initial forgiveness. It also denies the reality of believers who have fallen away from the faith and thereby we do not need to warn believers of sin and that it can separate them from God for all eternity.

There are even those who believe they can sin and still be saved and yet they deny OSAS. So we live in a crazy world where people think we can do evil in be in God's good graces on some level or that we do not need to care about warning others about the gravity of the true reality of sin.

Thank you for your response. I do not see it presented this way. A lot of the individuals that I have know on this forum for years now, do not veiw salvation this way. I personally see God's grace as more of a forbearance of sin than a licence to sin. You are accountable to your actions. I also do not hold to the notion that someone that is saved can just become unsaved. That individual would have to depart from God, or have never truly known God. So it is more of a giving up your salvation than a losing of faith. It is a condition of the heart. To me it is like the rich man that came to Jesus. He wanted to follow Christ, but when he was faced with giving up all he had to do so, his faith waned. He gave up his faith. Jesus was not worth his worldly possessions, and at that moment he still was not saved.

Likewise, you have to give up your former life. You cannot live in perpetual unrepented sin and be of God. That is where the forbearance of God comes in as grace. I was saved in my sin. Deeply entrenched in sin dealing with my own sexuality as a bisexual. At the same time living in the world completely contrary to God. The day before I asked Jesus into my live I was practicing Gardnerian Wicca. Witchcraft. It took me decades to get through all of this. I was saved through all of it. I stumbled and fell, lied, fought, yelled and screamed at God, But I was still saved, Because I continued on. I am not perfect. I sinned as a Christian, and I have felt like the lowest piece of human scum on this earth for doing so. I have often said that I have made Paul a liar, I am the chiefest of sinners. I deserve hell. I honestly believe God would be just to do so. And yet, I am saved due to God's grace.

To me the disconnect is that God saves us in our sin, and raises us up as his child from it. God's grace did not give me license to sin. Instead it gave me the liberty to learn how not to sin as I stumbled around learning in my walk with God. I was saved then and I am now. But here is the clencher. It took God seriously. I turned from him many times but I repented and continued on. I denounced my sin, and confessed Jesus. I think this is where some who believe salvation can be lost get messed up. I could have cursed God and walked away, but that would have been my decision to renounce God for my sins. Yet never once was I at risk of losing my salvation as I worked through my sin. Now that I am here, I would literally have to go against the holy spirit in me, grieving the spirit that I can feel within me, to betray God. It is nigh on impossible to lose your salvation once you have committed yourself to God. You must betray him, by denouncing him.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes John is speaking in objective terms referring to a specific group of people who were not among us. That no where implies that he is also referencing others in the body of Christ who are believers but still fall away. Otherwise, how do explain how an unbeliever can fall away from the faith when he never belonged to it?

You have introduced information not in the text and a made up category of your choosing.

Jesus never loses those sheep who hear and follow him (Jn 10:27). Those sheep who don't listen and follow do not have the assurance of eternal life. That is a concrete statement is it not?

Now find the passages which support your assertion.

In other words show me.

 

[Basil the Great]

There are different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. I have heard one guy admit to me in person he could mow down a crowd of people and yet still be saved while doing so.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. This view is basically saying you can justify a little bit of sin as being okay with God. However, how is doing a little bit of evil different than doing a lot of evil? Doing evil regardless of the frequency is still wrong.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. But falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). The problem with this belief is that it makes one doubt they were ever saved to begin with if they turned to God. It will make one doubt the promises of God of their initial forgiveness. It also denies the reality of believers who have fallen away from the faith and thereby we do not need to warn believers of sin and that it can separate them from God for all eternity.

There are even those who believe they can sin and still be saved and yet they deny OSAS. So we live in a crazy world where people think we can do evil in be in God's good graces on some level or that we do not need to care about warning others about the gravity of the true reality of sin.

Type #1 sounds like what President Trump said during the campaign last year, when he said that he could shoot someone on the street in NYC and still not lose support.

 

[Oldmantook]

Apparently, it refers to the same thing we find in Revelation 20. That is to say, a person who, after physical death, must face judgment and be sentenced to "the second death," the lake of fire. However, there are interpreters, I know, who see it a bit differently and think the meaning is that a non-believer who "gets religion" only to die without a genuine faith in Christ as Lord and Savior has become dead for the second time.

So if I understand you correctly in your first reference then physical death + spiritual death = twice dead. If that interpretation is applied to twice dead in Jude 12 then in my opinion it does not fit since that verse refers to those men in the body of Christ who are still alive in the church and causing ongoing division. They have not physically died so that definition doesn't fit with the context of Jude.
If twice dead in the other case applies to those who only 'get religion' but not really - in other words they weren't really believers and therefore never belonged to the faith, how can they spiritually die a second time? In other words, they were always unregenerate and remained dead in their sins despite their church-like appearance. Therefore they remained spiritually dead. They can't die spiritually again as they were always spiritually dead.

In my understanding the only way a person can be twice dead is for an unsaved person who is spiritually dead to become saved and regenerated; made alive in Christ. However later through unbelief and/or habitual disobedience which is not repented of, that person becomes spiritually dead again = second time; twice dead. Thus it is possible for a believer to be twice dead and not secure in his/her salvation given those circumstances.

Jesus gave the same example in his teaching on the prodigal son. The prodigal who once abided in his father's house to pursue a sinful life later repented. Jesus twice (for emphasis) in Lk 15:24,32 referred to him as "dead and is alive again. The prodigal didn't die physically so we know that dead means spiritually dead which makes sense given the prodigal's lifestyle. However the prodigal was spiritually alive when he abided in his father's house akin to us as believers who are spiritually alive when we abide in the vine. Through habitual sin, the prodigal was no longer spiritually alive but became spiritually dead. Upon returning to his father and repenting, he was forgiven and made alive again. Thus Jesus himself taught that it is possible for a believer to be spiritually alive, but then like the prodigal, fall into habitual sin causing spiritual death but if he turns from sin and genuinely repents can be made spiritually alive again. If no repentance occurs then he remains spiritually dead and not eternally secure.

 

[Buzz_B]

God did not write our name in the book of life in pencil. He does not erase our name every time we sin, then writes it back in when we repent. When God writes our name in the book of life, He writes it in the precious blood of Jesus. There is no ink that is more permanent and indelible than the blood of our Saviour, Christ Jesus.

Blessed Assurance {Part II}

That is a hasty conclusion. Consider:

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

 

[Buzz_B]

John 10:26-28 (KJV)
26 “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

What Jesus said at John 10:26-28 is a matter of perspective and certainly it is wrong to adopt a perspective which clashes with any other verse or verses in the Bible.

One perspective sees what Jesus said as meaning that his sheep are already saved. But that perspective clashes with much of both the Old and the New Testament Scriptures.

Another perspective sees what Jesus said as meaning that, by faithfully following Jesus example, as his true sheep would do, his sheep are kept safe unto the putting fully on the new personality which is perfected in the image of Christ and which image results in the everlasting life which Jesus is in the process of giving to them.

The following is Westcott- Hort's literal direct rendering of John 10:26-28:
“BUT YOU NOT ARE BELIEVING, BECAUSE NOT YOU ARE OUT OF THE SHEEP OF THE MINE. THE SHEEP THE MINE OF THE VOICE OF ME ARE HEARING, AND I AM KNOWING THEM, AND THEY ARE FOLLOWING TO ME, AND I AM GIVING TO THEM LIFE EVERLASTING, AND NOT NOT THEY SHOULD BE DESTROYED INTO THE AGE, AND NOT WILL SNATCH ANYONE THEM OUT OF THE HAND OF ME.”

Now note the part which speaks of that hope of salvation as progressive and yet to the future: “... THEY ARE FOLLOWING TO ME, AND I AM GIVING TO THEM LIFE EVERLASTING ...”

With what result? “AND NOT NOT THEY SHOULD BE DESTROYED INTO THE AGE ...”

Westcott-Hort recognizes the Greek grammar as indicating that he does not say he has already given that life everlasting but that he says, “I am giving”, indicating that as they follow him he is in the act of giving them life everlasting. Further local context proof of this, “I am giving”, as a process leading to everlasting life, is, as follows:

“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” - John 4:14 (KJV)

“And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.” - John 4:36

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” - John 5:28-29

“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” - John 6:27

You look at the moments wherein Christ speaks of the guarantee to those who prove to faithfully follow him and you assume that Jesus' guarantee of everlasting life to those faithful ones is the same as saying they actually already have that everlasting life. The faithfully following has to be completed first just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13.

It is guaranteed IF one continues to faithfully follow him, even as Paul points out to us: “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” - 1 Timothy 4:16

Heed Paul's warning and do not be dismissing it with false reasoning and foolish debates over poorly thought through texts of scripture: “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” - Romans 11:22

“As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” - John 8:30-32

 

[Winken]

Thank you for your response. I do not see it presented this way. A lot of the individuals that I have know on this forum for years now, do not veiw salvation this way. I personally see God's grace as more of a forbearance of sin than a licence to sin. You are accountable to your actions. I also do not hold to the notion that someone that is saved can just become unsaved. That individual would have to depart from God, or have never truly known God. So it is more of a giving up your salvation than a losing of faith. It is a condition of the heart. To me it is like the rich man that came to Jesus. He wanted to follow Christ, but when he was faced with giving up all he had to do so, his faith waned. He gave up his faith. Jesus was not worth his worldly possessions, and at that moment he still was not saved.

Likewise, you have to give up your former life. You cannot live in perpetual unrepented sin and be of God. That is where the forbearance of God comes in as grace. I was saved in my sin. Deeply entrenched in sin dealing with my own sexuality as a bisexual. At the same time living in the world completely contrary to God. The day before I asked Jesus into my live I was practicing Gardnerian Wicca. Witchcraft. It took me decades to get through all of this. I was saved through all of it. I stumbled and fell, lied, fought, yelled and screamed at God, But I was still saved, Because I continued on. I am not perfect. I sinned as a Christian, and I have felt like the lowest piece of human scum on this earth for doing so. I have often said that I have made Paul a liar, I am the chiefest of sinners. I deserve hell. I honestly believe God would be just to do so. And yet, I am saved due to God's grace.

To me the disconnect is that God saves us in our sin, and raises us up as his child from it. God's grace did not give me license to sin. Instead it gave me the liberty to learn how not to sin as I stumbled around learning in my walk with God. I was saved then and I am now. But here is the clencher. It took God seriously. I turned from him many times but I repented and continued on. I denounced my sin, and confessed Jesus. I think this is where some who believe salvation can be lost get messed up. I could have cursed God and walked away, but that would have been my decision to renounce God for my sins. Yet never once was I at risk of losing my salvation as I worked through my sin. Now that I am here, I would literally have to go against the holy spirit in me, grieving the spirit that I can feel within me, to betray God. It is nigh on impossible to lose your salvation once you have committed yourself to God. You must betray him, by denouncing him.

Powerful testimony! Needs to be read by all!

I would state that it is impossible to deny God. HE is the Sustainer, not me. HE will never leave us or forsake us.

I think we've worn this thread out. I think it is time for all to utter a prayer, out loud, and then silently contemplate on His loving response.

 

[Albion]

Type #1 sounds like what President Trump said during the campaign last year, when he said that he could shoot someone on the street in NYC and still not lose support.

Kind of a joke on God's part, then?

 

[aiki]

So tell me what you think. I am thinking that if we have a more defined and stated position, we may have a better conversation seeing that an individual that has voted has stated their belief.

Okay. My view in a nutshell:

1. Salvation is entirely a work of God. He draws (Jn. 6:44), convicts (Jn. 16:8), illuminates (Jn. 1:9; Eph. 1:17, 18; He. 10:32) and regenerates (Eph. 2:1; Ro. 8:10, 11) all those whom He in His omniscience knew would be saved (Ro. 8:29). Our walk with God is likewise entirely His doing. The believer can work out only what God has first worked into him (Phil. 2:12, 13); he is transformed, not by dint of his own effort, but by the power and work of the Holy Spirit within him (Ro. 8:13; Ga. 5:22, 23; 1 Cor. 12:13; Ju. 1:24)
2. Good works have no salvific power - before, during, or after one's conversion (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5-7; Ro. 3:27, 28).
3. All genuine believers are "accepted (by God) in the Beloved" who is Christ (Eph. 1:6). There is no other avenue through which a person may obtain (or retain) God's acceptance (Jn. 14:6; Ac. 4:12). It is because of the believer's position in Christ (Phil. 3:9; Ro. 8:1, 2; 12:5; 1 Cor. 1:30), clothed in his perfect righteousness (Ro. 4:22-25; 5:17), justified and sanctified by him (1 Cor. 6:11), that they are able always to come "boldly before the throne of grace," forever and unalterably born-again children of God (Matt. 6:37-39; Jn. 10:27-29; He. 13:5; 1 Thess. 5:23, 24; Phil. 1:6). A man's acceptance with God is not, then, contingent upon his conduct, his success (or failure) in walking rightly with God, but upon his perfect and unchanging Saviour. And since Christ's righteous perfection does not change, the believer's acceptance by God does not change.
4. God-honoring works are a natural by-product of genuine spiritual regeneration, not the means whereby a saved person retains their salvation (Matt. 7:17-20; Jn. 15:4, 5).
5. Rather than fear of lost salvation motivating a believer's obedience, a believer ought to be motivated to right living by a love for God. The love motive is the biblically-prescribed proper motive for the believer's obedience (Matt. 22:36-38; 1 Cor. 13:1-3; Jn. 14:15; 1 Jn. 4:8, 16). Fear of lost salvation is a self-protective, self-serving, motive for obedience. As such, it is a corrupt motive for obedience, totally contrary to the life believers are called to in Christ (1 Jn. 4:17-19).
6. No person has the power to undo their spiritual birth any more than they have the power to undo their physical birth. God initiates redemption of a lost person; He doesn't wait upon the desire of those "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1) for salvation and a relationship with Him before He moves to redeem them and impart to them a second spiritual birth. He acts unilaterally to save the lost, proceeding without their consent to move them toward redemption. And He does this despite their being alienated from Him, at enmity with Him by their wicked works (Col. 1:21, 22), bound under the power of the World, the Flesh, and the devil (Eph. 2:2, 3). If the sin of the lost does not keep them from the saving work of God, how does it have the power to counter the keeping work of God? How is God so powerful in bringing the lost to salvation and yet so weak in keeping them saved? The answer is: He isn't weak in keeping His own. Those God has saved, no man can snatch away from Him. Whether it is some external agency or the believer himself, no one and no thing has the power to undo God's saving work (Jn. 10:26-29)

 

[Albion]

It's quite something, when you think about it, to stand solidly behind the idea that you can be saved but then God might just let you fall and be lost--after Jesus instructed his disciples to trust him on that, no less!!

I often wonder if the anti-OSAS people really think that's the way God operates.