OSAS Discussion

[Bible Highlighter]

I read somewhere that if it were “possible “ for one to lose his Salvation,he for sure would do so.

Actually, it is the consequences of our actions that guides and motivates us.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

John 8:51 says,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.”

It is not those who sin and still be saved while believing on Jesus will never see death.

Sometimes those one sentence statement can be true or they can be false, this is one those sentences!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sometimes those one sentence statement can be true or they can be false, this is one those sentences!

How is the statement false? Did not Jesus always speak the truth?

Actually, if you were to read the context of John 8, it proves obedience as a part of being of God as being true (just as John 8:51 says). John 8 is not a case for a sin and still be saved doctrine. You would have to mutilate the text in order for such a thing to be so.

Here is the context.

John 8:37 says,
“I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.”

John 8:47 says,
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

Are these verses also false or not true?

John 8:47 says a similar thing as 1 John 3:10.
‭‭
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

‭‭

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I read somewhere that if it were “possible “ for one to lose his Salvation,he for sure would do so.

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul said if you believe his Gospel you will be saved....was Paul a liar

The gospel includes repenting and forsaking sin (See Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:14). If not then, we are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 NIV).

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

How is the statement false? Did not Jesus always speak the truth?

Actually, if you were to read the context of John 8, it proves obedience as a part of being of God as being true (just as John 8:51 says). John 8 is not a case for a sin and still be saved doctrine. You would have to mutilate the text in order for such a thing to be so.

Here is the context.

John 8:37 says,
“I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.”

John 8:47 says,
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

Are these verses also false or not true?

John 8:47 says a similar thing as 1 John 3:10.
‭‭
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

‭‭

I did not mean the verse was wrong but your statement that I underlined seemed to be your comment. Here is the line I underlined in my post before, you must have not noticed it: It is not those who sin and still be saved while believing on Jesus will never see death. It could be implied by It is not those who sin; one does not become sinless at the new birth, even though the wages of sin is not accounted to believers else they would be under the curse of the law, for the wages of sin is death, meaning eternal death, Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death and paid our sin debt therefore we have just what He said, eternal life by grace through faith. The mutilation of a verse is if one deny eternal life is given to those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Even the verse John 8:47 you posted for your point proves the point of eternal life, those that hear are the only ones that were sealed by the Holy Spirit. Would He not know who really meant that they believed and were saved, would He sealed them unto the day of redemption by mistake? Of course not, they will abide in the word of God and are now the children of God who were bought with the price of Jesus on the cross just as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 6:19. Which is why Ps 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the Lord upholds him with His hand. He holds those who come to Him, I am not holding onto Him for my security, He is holding onto and that guarantees my security and all who are trusting Him and His words. Although, I would still believe that one not claiming this promise would forfeit their salvation, but they sure would not have the same confidence as those of us who know, who is holding who.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Whoever rejects the messenger sent by YHWH rejects Yeshua also.
Whoever rejects YHWH'S Word also has already rejected YHWH.

Don't even make such statement as quoted, even if it is "/s" (sarcastic) or other figure of speech,
for we will be judged by[or for each of] all of our words.

(oh, btw, sorry - first reading thru I read "Paul was a liar" then right after posting re-reading saw it was a question "was Paul..." )

No Paul was not a liar, though I once told someone even Paul WAS (once) a liar, before he was redeemed, as it is written "all men are liars..." and many other Scriptures verifying the deceitfulness and sinfulness of men before they are purchased by the blood of the Lamb, in Yahweh's Plan and Salvation ...

God used sarcasm as did Jesus and Paul....and I love it when they do! With your “ permission” (Oops , a little sarcasm there lol) I will be paraphrasing here....when God told Moses to speak to Pharoh ,Moses protested because he said he was slow of speech—” who made mouths ? God demanded to know! Do you suppose God really forgot who made the human mouth? I detect just a hint of sarcasm there.
Jesus scolded the Pharisees—”you’d think these guy were Moses,the way they make up so many laws!
Concerning the issue of circumcism —what Paul really told the Legalists about being “cut off “......well ,let’s just not go there.....
If sarcasm was a tool for them, there must not be anything sinful about it. Please do not stroke out—Paul can handle being called a “liar—-especially when he has the insight to see the very idea of him being a “liar” is ludicrous and it was only said to illustrate the obvious truth of his Gospel....I understand what you mean however, so let’s not argue about it .i consider you a brother and a friend,and trust me on this——I am not being sarcastic with that last remark! Lol. God bless you

 

[aiki]

aiki says, quote, “Salvation is entirely a work of God. He draws” John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”


<><><><<><><>
I now ask, what mixtake can we see there that aiki has made? Aiki failed to harmonize his rational of John 6:44 with the very next verse, John 6:45, which makes it rather plain how God draws: John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

Uh, what? Failed to harmonize? I'm confused...How does saying that salvation is entirely God's work not harmonize with John 6:45? You say there is a problem, but you've neglected to state what, exactly, you think the problem is. Certainly, being taught of God the truth we find in His word does not contradict the statement of John 6:44 or my own observation from Scripture that God saves us.

Thus the mystery is beginning to leave out of what Jesus said at John 6:44.

"Mystery"? What mystery? And the idea that John 6:44 is "left out" or rendered false by other verses is itself false.

We have learned that to hear the truth about the Father kindness draws us to him if we are so inclined to be drawn to kindness.

No person God draws to Christ is naturally inclined toward Him and salvation. As Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:1, every lost person is "dead in trespasses and sins." What does he mean? Well, he goes on to explain:

Ephesians 2:2-3
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

How does a man who is spiritually dead, and living under bondage to the "prince of the power of the air," the World, and his own flesh have any inclination toward a God who demands he forsake all of these things? Quite obviously, under such conditions, he can have no inclination toward God and never will have without God's intervention. John 6:44, then, is strongly supported by Paul's words, not "left out" as you assert.

God is not usurping our freewill, nor is he calling only those he foreknew would respond to him.

Scripture disagrees very flatly with you:

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Here Paul highlights very plainly that through God's foreknowledge He predestines His children to salvation, calling, justifying, and ultimately glorifying them, too. As Paul makes clear, this is God's work, not ours.

Before you start arguing against me as though I'm a five-point Calvinist, I should tell you that I am not a Calvinist but Molinist in my soteriological persuasion.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Uh, what? Failed to harmonize? I'm confused...How does saying that salvation is entirely God's work not harmonize with John 6:45? You say there is a problem, but you've neglected to state what, exactly, you think the problem is. Certainly, being taught of God the truth we find in His word does not contradict the statement of John 6:44 or my own observation from Scripture that God saves us.



"Mystery"? What mystery? And the idea that John 6:44 is "left out" or rendered false by other verses is itself false.



No person God draws to Christ is naturally inclined toward Him and salvation. As Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:1, every lost person is "dead in trespasses and sins." What does he mean? Well, he goes on to explain:

Ephesians 2:2-3
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

How does a man who is spiritually dead, and living under bondage to the "prince of the power of the air," the World, and his own flesh have any inclination toward a God who demands he forsake all of these things? Quite obviously, under such conditions, he can have no inclination toward God and never will have without God's intervention. John 6:44, then, is strongly supported by Paul's words, not "left out" as you assert.



Scripture disagrees very flatly with you:

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Here Paul highlights very plainly that through God's foreknowledge He predestines His children to salvation, calling, justifying, and ultimately glorifying them, too. As Paul makes clear, this is God's work, not ours.

Before you start arguing against me as though I'm a five-point Calvinist, I should tell you that I am not a Calvinist but a Molinist in my soteriological persuasion.

There are four types of soil.....three don’t make it....pray that God makes you good soil .Wake up to the bad news that God does not want everyone...work out your salvation with fear and trembling and have a great day!

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

The gospel includes repenting and forsaking sin (See Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:14). If not then, we are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 NIV).

I am running out of computer ink....the things you mentioned are very important,but they are not the Gospel thAt saves....your stuff comes later down the road...please google Ironside Gospel for interesting detail

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

Here’s a list of all the things that will damn us

Unbelief
Here’s a list of two things that will save us
Christ’s blood and our faith

The Bible was mostly written by murderers...all are in Heaven now for one reason.....faith

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Bible was mostly written by murderers...all are in Heaven now for one reason.....faith

Sorry, no, terrible mis-representation.
There will be no murderers, thieves , adulterers , idolators, or those who serve demons in heaven.
Anyone then can check the records, perfect records, YHWH'S records - not one accusation remains against those whose sin has been forgiven - no, not even one.

Even on earth, there is a marked and vital difference between murderers and liars and those who kill or who lie not as from a perverse or profane heart/soul/life - as YHWH sees in the person's heart and knows perfectly all that is there, and HE is the JUDGE.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There are four types of soil.....three don’t make it....pray that God makes you good soil

See? .... when YHWH changes / works/ 'plows the back' to make poor soil into good soil,
the "three don't make it" becomes instead the "ones who don't repent" don't make it. --- All might be rocky / selfish soil until YHWH changes them, gradually or quickly as He Pleases.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not mean the verse was wrong but your statement that I underlined seemed to be your comment. Here is the line I underlined in my post before, you must have not noticed it: It is not those who sin and still be saved while believing on Jesus will never see death. It could be implied by It is not those who sin; one does not become sinless at the new birth, even though the wages of sin is not accounted to believers else they would be under the curse of the law, for the wages of sin is death, meaning eternal death, Jesus freed us from the law of sin and death and paid our sin debt therefore we have just what He said, eternal life by grace through faith. The mutilation of a verse is if one deny eternal life is given to those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Even the verse John 8:47 you posted for your point proves the point of eternal life, those that hear are the only ones that were sealed by the Holy Spirit. Would He not know who really meant that they believed and were saved, would He sealed them unto the day of redemption by mistake? Of course not, they will abide in the word of God and are now the children of God who were bought with the price of Jesus on the cross just as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 6:19. Which is why Ps 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the Lord upholds him with His hand. He holds those who come to Him, I am not holding onto Him for my security, He is holding onto and that guarantees my security and all who are trusting Him and His words. Although, I would still believe that one not claiming this promise would forfeit their salvation, but they sure would not have the same confidence as those of us who know, who is holding who.

Here is the problem in what you said here. You said a person does not become sinless in the new birth. Yet, you say that the Lord upholds those who are good and He delights in his way. How can God who is holy delight in their way of they are still sinning as if it was normal? John 8:47 does not prove your point that they can still sin and be saved. You said they were not sinless and yet they are still saved because they have eternal life. This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Justifying a little bit of evil is wrong just as much as justifying a lot of evil. John 8:47 is saying they that are of God hear God's Word. Yet, you are saying they do not hear God's Word in the beginning of the new birth because they are not sinless or they have not stopped sinning. In Psalms 37:23-24 is true but it is only if they are confessing and forsaking their sin. It is not with the idea that they will willingly fall or commit sin as if it was a matter of fact. When you tell you somebody that they are forever saved no matter what they do, then they WILL treat God's grace as a license to sin on some level. Confessing of sins is not really necessary. Yet, 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Please. Please just re-read John 8. The reason why Jesus was condemning the Pharisees was because they did not do the works of Abraham.

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).

This is not some kind of Calvinistic forced regeneration thing going on here.

For God said to Cain back in Genesis that doing good and evil was his choice,

"You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master." (Genesis 4:7) (NLT).

Now, you are probably thinking that believers in the Old Covenant were not born again, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Check out the verses in this thread here (to see what I am talking about):

Old Testament saints were born again.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

all of your reasoning that proves to you my guilt is your inputs to what I believe and your input is not what I believe or taken from what I posted. you inserted only your conclusions. Please show where you got those remarks other than from your thoughts! I even quoted Jesus saying that His disciples would abide in His word in John 8:31. And with that abiding would incorporate obedience and that would include confessing of their sin when committed and turning away from them. As you stated a wrongful conclusion to my saying one does not becomes sinless at the new birth, then tell me what sin they would have to confess! and also show where I said that would give them license to sin. Again that was what you concluded and is why a lot of people do not believe that they are saved by grace through faith alone which Eph 2:8-9 says word for word and then it goes on to add we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which He ordained that we should walk in them.

You posted this in your post #139 Only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So eternal life is conditioned upon abiding in Christ and His good ways. For Jesus tells us to abide in Him and to abide in His words.

And this is true but only because it is Him working in us by His word and the Holy Spirit to desire to walk in His word; Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. A saint does good only because God is leading them to obey, remember what Jesus said, without Me you can do nothing. Nothing means nothing, let him that glories, glory in the Lord.











i

 

[Buzz_B]

Uh, what? Failed to harmonize? I'm confused...How does saying that salvation is entirely God's work not harmonize with John 6:45? You say there is a problem, but you've neglected to state what, exactly, you think the problem is. Certainly, being taught of God the truth we find in His word does not contradict the statement of John 6:44 or my own observation from Scripture that God saves us.

"Mystery"? What mystery? And the idea that John 6:44 is "left out" or rendered false by other verses is itself false.

No person God draws to Christ is naturally inclined toward Him and salvation. As Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:1, every lost person is "dead in trespasses and sins." What does he mean? Well, he goes on to explain:

Ephesians 2:2-3
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

How does a man who is spiritually dead, and living under bondage to the "prince of the power of the air," the World, and his own flesh have any inclination toward a God who demands he forsake all of these things? Quite obviously, under such conditions, he can have no inclination toward God and never will have without God's intervention. John 6:44, then, is strongly supported by Paul's words, not "left out" as you assert.

Scripture disagrees very flatly with you:

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Here Paul highlights very plainly that through God's foreknowledge He predestines His children to salvation, calling, justifying, and ultimately glorifying them, too. As Paul makes clear, this is God's work, not ours.

Before you start arguing against me as though I'm a five-point Calvinist, I should tell you that I am not a Calvinist but Molinist in my soteriological persuasion.

When you are done being offended by what I wrote then try reasoning on it. Until then you are speaking things that are directly contradicted by the Bible writers themselves but are so fixated on what you think you have discovered that you do not even see what those Bible writers themselves have said opposite your view.

I feel for you but you keep going right back to the same puke even when a scripture which plainly contradicts you is offered for your consideration.

Examples: Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

But you would rather insist you understood correctly when you read Ephesians 2:8-9 and allow yourself to just go on doubting Philippians 2:12. Sorry friend, that is not how it is correctly done. When you read scriptures which seem to contradict your view of another text it is signalling you that there is something wrong with your interpretation. You need to understand all the things the Bible writers tell you, not just the ones which support you being comfortable in what you prefer to believe. You are not really listening until you direct your attention to humbly trying to do that.

I will take time to explain Romans 8:29-30 to you so as to help you understand. I have already in my previous post shown you many which contradict your idea of what that text means. That one was difficult for me also, before I was helped to understand it. I have one more post I would like to make and then I will do that for you.

In the mean time, actually consider what Jason0047 wrote in his post 144. There are many scriptures listed in that post which directly contradict you. It is not me nor is it Jason who calls you out, but God's word itself. Don't let yourself be offended at us for that can only hinder you.

 

[Buzz_B]

Sin has twisted us to where we have our attention so fixated upon our self that we often fail to understand when something is spoken concerning the larger body we were designed to be. I am speaking of not just a sense of oneness as in a unified effort by individuals who though seeing themselves as individuals nonetheless commit to working together as one, but I am speaking of truly being one, of no longer worrying about our self at all because all we see is that when anyone hurts we hurt, and when anyone rejoices we rejoice, and all our needs are well supplied for in this selfless manner of living.

Had it not been for Adam's sin causing division in his and in our thinking, separating and segregating us away from each other and from God, we would understand things much differently than we presently do. Presently sin in the greater body of mankind has caused division after division. And it has even compounded divisions on top of divisions. Not only are we divided country by country, nationality by nationality, but within our countries and within our nationalities few are open to agreement with each other. We have reached the division caused of sin to near the maximum degree.

No, God's confusing the languages is not what caused this separation and segregation. Adam's sin caused a breaking off of mans' spirit with God and a breaking off of man's spirit one man to another. The literal flesh has always been a participant with no real say of its own. The flesh only ever could do what man's spirit directed it to do. If not for that division in spirit due to sin where man's one spirit with God became spirits plural, then giving man different languages would have not been able to cause the strife we see. Thus God did not cause what we see. Sin caused it.

I am going to leave this hang out seemingly alone for now so that it might be pondered. I am for the moment focused on just laying a foundation for understanding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

all of your reasoning that proves to you my guilt is your inputs to what I believe and your input is not what I believe or taken from what I posted. you inserted only your conclusions. Please show where you got those remarks other than from your thoughts! I even quoted Jesus saying that His disciples would abide in His word in John 8:31. And with that abiding would incorporate obedience and that would include confessing of their sin when committed and turning away from them. As you stated a wrongful conclusion to my saying one does not becomes sinless at the new birth, then tell me what sin they would have to confess! and also show where I said that would give them license to sin. Again that was what you concluded and is why a lot of people do not believe that they are saved by grace through faith alone which Eph 2:8-9 says word for word and then it goes on to add we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which He ordained that we should walk in them.

You posted this in your post #139 Only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So eternal life is conditioned upon abiding in Christ and His good ways. For Jesus tells us to abide in Him and to abide in His words.

And this is true but only because it is Him working in us by His word and the Holy Spirit to desire to walk in His word; Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. A saint does good only because God is leading them to obey, remember what Jesus said, without Me you can do nothing. Nothing means nothing, let him that glories, glory in the Lord.

You implied in another thread by your response that a believer can still be saved even if they commit suicide here:

Will you still go to hell if you're saved and commit suicide?

That is basically saying you can sin and still be saved (Which I believe is morally wrong and unbiblical).

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

You implied in another thread by your response that a believer can still be saved even if they commit suicide here:

Will you still go to hell if you're saved and commit suicide?

That is basically saying you can sin and still be saved (Which I believe is morally wrong and unbiblical).

And that was your conclusion from reading what Paul wrote in the latter part of Romans 8 about nothing can separate us from the love of God. Since you mention suicide, yes, I do believe that if a saint set apart by faith and sealed with the Holy Spirit committed it they would be in glory the moment the heart stopped. I side with what scripture teaches, blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin. Rom 4:5-8 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” And Rom 8:2-3 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, Just because you and many more do not receive the word of God as written, does not nullify the truth of scripture, but it does not give peace to the heart of those that do not accept its truth. But it does not nullify that God will not still honor His word. Wisdom and understanding of the applications of the word of God still do not return unto Him void just because some saints are not by faith enjoying all of its blessings.

Eze 36:25-27 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. And just because He does this to the believers at the new birth does not mean that they will never again commit a sin, but it does mean that their sin debt has been paid for all their sins and they will never be charged to their account, else any sin would condemn them, the wages of sin is death, but that is what Jesus took on the cross, he paid our sin debt. That does not give saints a license to sin, but if they would rather live a life of sin, they were never saved, God puts within the new creation in Christ the desire to be obedient and the love of God. Phil 2:13 for it is God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Isa 43:25 “I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;And I will not remember your sins.

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Isa 53:5 Come let us reason together, tho your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow, tho they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

And does that imply that to you, if you commit a sin without confessing it and you were to suddenly die, would you be lost or saved?

 

[Buzz_B]

Iwbswiaihl , because we have this problem due to sin of fixating on our self there is an incorrect view widely circulating among modern Christianity not only that all in Christ were know by name from the beginning of the world (or before its beginning) and also that our individual bodies are temples of God so that the spirit of God literally resides in us as an individual. I am getting ready to speak more on those topics being as they are central to the OSAS construction.

Much of this confusion is a very innocent mistake as we tend to trick ourselves with how we reason on things. And it is not necessarily our fault that we do not know how to properly reason and thus end up tricking ourselves. It is sin's fault. And to ones who have made a bit more advancement in their faith the evident contradictions are what we see in your words, even knowing that you do not yet see those contradictions. Yet you would say that you see the contradictions in what we say. However, when I say we see the contradictions we do not mean where you contradict what we have said, but what you yourself have said. And it is very subtle. Whereas what you see in connection with us is that we do not agree with your view of particular Scriptures and that is not really a contradiction in us but a problem of perception. But, hey, having passed through where you are we have great compassion for your position and therefore we are not the least bit excited or annoyed at you. That peace then guards our thinking ability. We don't get muffled and begin grasping at straws. We learned long ago that when we detect in ourselves that we are getting upset at others for what they believe and say, the problem is in us, in that we are not so sure of what the truth is as we thought. So long as we live the law of the love of Christ, that is what guarantees we will always press forward in the salvation of Christ.

I agree with much of what Jason said about suicide but I also agree with you that suicide does not necessarily mean we are lost to salvation. God took Enoch before his time because his righteous heart was so distressed by the wickedness of the world around him.

We cannot judge whom God will decide to pass over and whom God will pass through. It is wrong to make a blanket statement saying that suicide would always bar one from salvation. First off it runs contrary to our loving God whose desire is to save rather than to destroy. And his desire to save is not just toward some foreordained group but toward the entire world of mankind as we learn from John 3:16-17. Compare: John 12:47; Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; 1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9

We need to remember that rather than being actually written by name in the symbolic book of life (symbolic for we know God needs no real book to help him remember) we were ourselves enemies of God and of his Christ: Romans 5:10 “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” And indeed how much more shall we be saved by his life, having died to our old life and living his life, but certainly not having it silver teaspooned to us like some spoiled rich man's child..

I used to think the following text meant the saving of the spirit of the offending man: 1 Corinthians 5:5 “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” It does not mean that. It is an introduction to the next three verses on the thought of a little leaven infecting the entire lump and means saving the spirit of the congregation, not grieving God's spirit so that it leaves from among the congregation. Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye (ye, the congregation) are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

God's word is written in a remarkable way to either reveal our haughtiness and conceal its truths from us or reveal the meekness of our hearts and enlighten us of God's truth, including the revelation of the mysteries of God. It is to our benefit not to be anxious over anything, but in everything trust in the love of God given us in the law of love that is in Christ and apply that love while we go on learning, for that is our salvation. 1 Corinthians 9:21

1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby [to salvation].."

The KJV omitted that for some reason (no doubt as it was omitted in some later manuscripts) but it was there in the older manuscripts. And that is why most Bibles do not omit those words. We grow to salvation. And that is but one of various places in Scripture which tells us that. It is OK to think of ourselves as saved in the sense that God's word is completely reliable. For his word is as good as done. But it is a horrible mistake to take God's goodness for granted and think we are going to be protected from having to reap what we sow as Paul told us in Galatians 6:7-9. If we sow to sin we will reap death due to sin as Paul also told us in Romans 6:12, 13, 16, 20-23.

To give others the impression that they can sin with impunity is a high offense against God, a severe mocking of him. Try caring more about that than about standing behind some doctrine.

And to add just one more observation, you cite Isa 43:25; Ps 103:12; Isa 53:5 as if you think those texts mean all sin we ever did or ever will do. And if that be the case you are wrong.

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"

Romans 6:21 "What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death."

Do not think God called you with allowance for sin because that is mocking him. He is holy and cannot excuse sin. Your sin has not been excused. It has been paid for by your death in Christ on the basis that you do not pick that flesh up and keep on living in sin. For if you do that you are not in Christ at all and either never were or willingly stepped away from him preferring that old flesh. In the end you will then prove to be as those at Matthew 7:16-23