OSAS Discussion

[Buzz_B]

I said in my last post that there is an incorrect view widely circulating among modern Christianity not only that all in Christ were know by name from the beginning of the world (or before its beginning) but also that our individual bodies are temples of God so that the spirit of God literally resides in us as an individual. Now I will speak more on that.

If our individual bodies were indeed temples, that would make us like the pagans who had many gods and many temples to those many gods. But as we saw with the model of God's nation, ancient Israel, there was only one temple of God and that temple served the purpose of being a house of priestly intermediaries and a place where all worshipers of God could approach God via those priestly intermediaries to submit petitions to God and to make offerings and sacrifices to God.

The idea that each of our individual bodies is a temple of God also defies the truth that is we are accepted of God we are then one body by one spirit in Jesus Christ, our last Adam substituting for the Adam in who we should have originally learned to live as one with each other and with God, but for sin snatching that opportunity away from us.

But now to put that to the test. Can we prove that from the Scriptures? You should already know that Israel only had one temple, that is, if you are really a Bible reader. Israel had many synagogues even as there were many congregations of God in the first century. And the word, “synagogue”, merely means, “congregation”, even as does the word, “church.” And since God's temple has become spiritual, a congregation can be considered an extension of God's temple but not a whole temple by itself. Even as God is one, so also his temple is one.

Now, those that are prone to haste might wish to jump on my last sentence in the previous paragraph to claim that is the situation when it comes to our individual bodies. The problem is that our individual bodies of flesh are laying dead due to sin and we would have no body if not for the Christ who is the grace of God to us that we might live in him as his one body by his one spirit with God the Father. We lay our individual bodies down daily in the death that Christ suffered for us, doing so as our whole burnt offering or sacrifice to God: Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” And that which is sacrificed is no longer ours for it was given to God. And if having been sacrificed as a whole burnt offering it is no longer our body, then we cannot correctly say when speaking of our individual self that “my body is a temple of God.” At best our individual bodies are only small pieces (body members) of God's one temple (aka, the body of Christ) wherein God's spirit dwells. 1 Corinthians 6:15 “Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.”

And so what does 1 Corinthians 6:19 mean? Notice that Paul is no longer speaking of bodies, plural. He has already established in verse 15 that our individual bodies are all but members of Christ's body. Christ's body is our body now. We all share that one body in common with Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

In verse 15 the Koine' Greek word for “bodies” was indeed grammatically plural showing that our individual bodies were indeed being spoken of. But in verse 19 Paul does indeed switch to the singular number for “body.” Thus we are enabled to understand that Paul is saying to us that the body of Christ which is now our body in common with Christ is the Temple of God. And because our individual bodies are pieces of that one body of Christ we are obligated to keep our bodies clean. It is like the purification which had to be performed on anything which was used in that one temple in ancient Israel. God will not accept anything unclean to be a part of his holy dwelling place.

Now, I do not like to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses, being as I find them to be very fine people as Christians go, but I will share a couple mistakes they make in their Bible as regards the word, “bodies” when it should read “body” singular. They have mistranslated the word, “body” at both Romans 8:23 and Hebrews 10:22 making those verses read “bodies” plural. I reveal this so that if any of them are looking on they can follow the reasoning I began above and apply it to those verses also. As all of us have done at times and in various places in Scripture, they did not understand what was being said and so conformed it to what they thought they knew was right. Well, it is time for all of us to humbly advance beyond our mistakes, rooting them out and correcting them so that we can go on being refined in our understanding and growing in truth..

I myself only recently began to see that our flesh bodies are not laying completely dead but after having sacrificed them to God it is now that as Romans 8:11 tells us, “he will quicken your mortal bodies.” Yes, so that we can use our bodies to serve as body members of Christ. Not so that we can continue to live for our bodies as though they are yet our own.

I have discussed this to help those that yet need assistance in learning to reason in the Scriptures (in this case specifically reasoning in the NT) because they will need to know how to reason when I begin discussing Romans 8:29-30. But I will let time pass so that this post might be digested to their benefit.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I hear and see that when you say that someone may still be saved after committing suicide and another may be lost is what you believe, and that would mean that no one actually knows what the standard would be for God to determine why one would be saved and one would be lost. I don't see the God causing those kind of confusions. He is orderly and without declaring exceptions on His principles I take His word to mean what it says. When in doubt or not yet knowing in my mind/heart, I believe Him and agree to Him that I have not a clear understanding of how to accomplish what His word is declaring, but I do not say to myself or others that the word of God written is wrong. In my understanding there are no verses that invalidate another verse in context that would contradict what each are saying. Else confusion would abound. Such as eternal salvation, I believe as John wrote in first John 3, we now are the children of God and thus he would mean sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Nothing break the seal until the day of redemption. I also read blessed is the one whom God does not impute sin, and those are the ones like Abraham who walk in faith(Rom 4 the whole chapter). Holy living follows conversion, no one lives without committing sin after that conversion and we are to confess and forsake sinful habits and lifestyle, nevertheless, all sin was atoned for at Calvary and all saint are white as snow because our righteousness is the righteousness of God imputed to us by faith in Jesus Christ. One that lives a habitual lifestyle of sin do not fool God and the principle, why call Me, Lord, Lord would apply, and those fall into the category of had they been of us they would have remained with us, they departed from us to show they were never of us, 1John2.

Answer this question, when David sinned with Bathsheba was he lost until he confessed his sin?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I said in my last post that there is an incorrect view widely circulating among modern Christianity not only that all in Christ were know by name from the beginning of the world (or before its beginning) but also that our individual bodies are temples of God so that the spirit of God literally resides in us as an individual. Now I will speak more on that.

If our individual bodies were indeed temples, that would make us like the pagans who had many gods and many temples to those many gods. But as we saw with the model of God's nation, ancient Israel, there was only one temple of God and that temple served the purpose of being a house of priestly intermediaries and a place where all worshipers of God could approach God via those priestly intermediaries to submit petitions to God and to make offerings and sacrifices to God.

The idea that each of our individual bodies is a temple of God also defies the truth that is we are accepted of God we are then one body by one spirit in Jesus Christ, our last Adam substituting for the Adam in who we should have originally learned to live as one with each other and with God, but for sin snatching that opportunity away from us.

But now to put that to the test. Can we prove that from the Scriptures? You should already know that Israel only had one temple, that is, if you are really a Bible reader. Israel had many synagogues even as there were many congregations of God in the first century. And the word, “synagogue”, merely means, “congregation”, even as does the word, “church.” And since God's temple has become spiritual, a congregation can be considered an extension of God's temple but not a whole temple by itself. Even as God is one, so also his temple is one.

Now, those that are prone to haste might wish to jump on my last sentence in the previous paragraph to claim that is the situation when it comes to our individual bodies. The problem is that our individual bodies of flesh are laying dead due to sin and we would have no body if not for the Christ who is the grace of God to us that we might live in him as his one body by his one spirit with God the Father. We lay our individual bodies down daily in the death that Christ suffered for us, doing so as our whole burnt offering or sacrifice to God: Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” And that which is sacrificed is no longer ours for it was given to God. And if having been sacrificed as a whole burnt offering it is no longer our body, then we cannot correctly say when speaking of our individual self that “my body is a temple of God.” At best our individual bodies are only small pieces (body members) of God's one temple (aka, the body of Christ) wherein God's spirit dwells. 1 Corinthians 6:15 “Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.”

And so what does 1 Corinthians 6:19 mean? Notice that Paul is no longer speaking of bodies, plural. He has already established in verse 15 that our individual bodies are all but members of Christ's body. Christ's body is our body now. We all share that one body in common with Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

In verse 15 the Koine' Greek word for “bodies” was indeed grammatically plural showing that our individual bodies were indeed being spoken of. But in verse 19 Paul does indeed switch to the singular number for “body.” Thus we are enabled to understand that Paul is saying to us that the body of Christ which is now our body in common with Christ is the Temple of God. And because our individual bodies are pieces of that one body of Christ we are obligated to keep our bodies clean. It is like the purification which had to be performed on anything which was used in that one temple in ancient Israel. God will not accept anything unclean to be a part of his holy dwelling place.

Now, I do not like to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses, being as I find them to be very fine people as Christians go, but I will share a couple mistakes they make in their Bible as regards the word, “bodies” when it should read “body” singular. They have mistranslated the word, “body” at both Romans 8:23 and Hebrews 10:22 making those verses read “bodies” plural. I reveal this so that if any of them are looking on they can follow the reasoning I began above and apply it to those verses also. As all of us have done at times and in various places in Scripture, they did not understand what was being said and so conformed it to what they thought they knew was right. Well, it is time for all of us to humbly advance beyond our mistakes, rooting them out and correcting them so that we can go on being refined in our understanding and growing in truth..

I myself only recently began to see that our flesh bodies are not laying completely dead but after having sacrificed them to God it is now that as Romans 8:11 tells us, “he will quicken your mortal bodies.” Yes, so that we can use our bodies to serve as body members of Christ. Not so that we can continue to live for our bodies as though they are yet our own.

I have discussed this to help those that yet need assistance in learning to reason in the Scriptures (in this case specifically reasoning in the NT) because they will need to know how to reason when I begin discussing Romans 8:29-30. But I will let time pass so that this post might be digested to their benefit.

I will admit at the start, I was reading this post and from the first paragraph, I noticed that you do not believe what the scriptures clearly teach that saints are the temple of God in that He lives in us. I will close after showing the scriptures which states this truth: 1 Cor 3:16-23 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Whatever the subject, one cannot start out wrong and keeping that view, end up with the right answer>

 

[Buzz_B]

I will admit at the start, I was reading this post and from the first paragraph, I noticed that you do not believe what the scriptures clearly teach that saints are the temple of God in that He lives in us. I will close after showing the scriptures which states this truth: 1 Cor 3:16-23 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Whatever the subject, one cannot start out wrong and keeping that view, end up with the right answer>

And you have started out wrong and are building on that wrong idea just as you say. So it is good that you realize that is possible to do. Now just exercise the humility to see what you are doing.

Not only in failing to understand that my entire argument is that Paul according to the properly applied Greek grammar rules is telling us that we are the body of Christ and thus together we are built up into a singular temple of God but in your lack of understanding of the Greek grammar. "You" is the plural number Greek pronoun in those verses. In other words Paul is speaking to the group rather than to individuals. We see what he is speaking of quite clearly at Ephesians 2:19-22

19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Back in 1 Corinthians 3:9-10 we see that Temple of Ephesians 2:19-22 being built.

 

[Buzz_B]

I hear and see that when you say that someone may still be saved after committing suicide and another may be lost is what you believe, and that would mean that no one actually knows what the standard would be for God to determine why one would be saved and one would be lost. I don't see the God causing those kind of confusions. He is orderly and without declaring exceptions on His principles I take His word to mean what it says. When in doubt or not yet knowing in my mind/heart, I believe Him and agree to Him that I have not a clear understanding of how to accomplish what His word is declaring, but I do not say to myself or others that the word of God written is wrong. In my understanding there are no verses that invalidate another verse in context that would contradict what each are saying. Else confusion would abound. Such as eternal salvation, I believe as John wrote in first John 3, we now are the children of God and thus he would mean sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Nothing break the seal until the day of redemption. I also read blessed is the one whom God does not impute sin, and those are the ones like Abraham who walk in faith(Rom 4 the whole chapter). Holy living follows conversion, no one lives without committing sin after that conversion and we are to confess and forsake sinful habits and lifestyle, nevertheless, all sin was atoned for at Calvary and all saint are white as snow because our righteousness is the righteousness of God imputed to us by faith in Jesus Christ. One that lives a habitual lifestyle of sin do not fool God and the principle, why call Me, Lord, Lord would apply, and those fall into the category of had they been of us they would have remained with us, they departed from us to show they were never of us, 1John2.

Answer this question, when David sinned with Bathsheba was he lost until he confessed his sin?

The way you began there sounds rather presumptuous to me. Where the Scriptures do not pointedly comment on something I would much rather leave the decision totally in God's hands rather than thinking I know all he will or will not do.

As for the rest of what you said, I understand that you feel compelled to hang onto an idea from which you have drawn much security. Just do not abuse God's mercy by taking sin too lightly or that security is going to be temporary. He eventually dashes us to the ground like a potter throwing a vessel down and breaking it in pieces. He will also rebuild us into a new vessel if we humble ourselves amidst his discipline of us.

Proverbs 24:16 "For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief."

We might error and as the seven times mentioned above means, God will work with us and bring us to perfection so long as we keep getting back up and trying. That is what a righteously inclined person does. They keep trying till they get it right.

He perfects us even as his word is perfect if we are but willing to endure his chastisement.

Psalms 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

Hebrews 12

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[Buzz_B]

Just a littlle hint for anyone who wishes to ponder further into the Koine' Greek's use of plural and singular number pronouns, whether you prefer another Bible or not, keep a KJV handy for, as the preface to the NT KJV tells us, "Ye", "You", "Your", are used only for plural number Greek pronouns and "Thee", "Thou", "Thy", and "Thine" are use only for singular number pronouns.

To understand the effect of the plural "you", just think of the way many Southerners in the United States and also many black people use the word, "yous" when speaking to more than one person at a time. It is evident that they are addressing the group and that they are applying what they are saying to the group. They will just say "you" when they mean the individual. But in Greek the plural when translated "you" as does the KJV means the same as their "yous."

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Groups of people or things are also inclusive of each person or thing, therefore all are involved, such as except you repent you perish, not only applies to the group but to each individual in the group. Paul writing to the Ephesians in chapter one writes to the saints simply because he is speaking to each one as a group, but groups are made up of many individuals and every one of them got into the group spoken to by the new birth. Therefore as he continues in context he speaks of the blessings that each one has in Christ because they each had heard the word and believed it and were sealed with the Holy Spirit, read it for ourselves and let the word explain what God means; Eph 1:11-14 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. So one can easily see that all who heard and believed, were saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, and as Jesus said in John 14 to the apostle, the Holy Spirit would be in each of them and guide them into the wisdom of God and His truth. Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path, Ps 119:105. Each saints is like the a tub says the country boy, every tub sits on its own bottom, and I simply advise all to follow the word of God and not the opinions of man.

 

[Buzz_B]

Groups of people or things are also inclusive of each person or thing, therefore all are involved, such as except you repent you perish, not only applies to the group but to each individual in the group. Paul writing to the Ephesians in chapter one writes to the saints simply because he is speaking to each one as a group, but groups are made up of many individuals and every one of them got into the group spoken to by the new birth. Therefore as he continues in context he speaks of the blessings that each one has in Christ because they each had heard the word and believed it and were sealed with the Holy Spirit, read it for ourselves and let the word explain what God means; Eph 1:11-14 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. So one can easily see that all who heard and believed, were saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, and as Jesus said in John 14 to the apostle, the Holy Spirit would be in each of them and guide them into the wisdom of God and His truth. Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path, Ps 119:105. Each saints is like the a tub says the country boy, every tub sits on its own bottom, and I simply advise all to follow the word of God and not the opinions of man.

Yes, you are close to right. The difference between how we would view it in English and how it is viewed in Greek are often very subtle and we must really think about it before we can distinguish the finite difference.

Eph 1:11-14 [In Him also we <[the group of us] have obtained an inheritance,]
[we the group of us] being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we <[the group of us] who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

(I will insert an edit here: See the predestined group, here: Acts 15:14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name." - compare (1 Peter 2:10) - (Hosea 2:21-23) Israel was the foreshadow of the Christian congregation in Christ - one body - one spirit - one mind of Christ - a unified people to God's praise and glory. Way back at Genesis 3:15 God prepared to send Christ as the seed of the woman and God knew there would be meek ones to be found and brought into Christ as a unified people to his praise and glory. )

13 In Him you <[like saying yous, or, you people] also trusted, after you [you people] heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, [you people] having believed,

you <[you people] were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Compare that last part of verse 13 and verse 14 to:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you<[as in yous, or, all of you together - for such teaching together brings about unity] all things, and bring all things to your <[unified selves as one together] remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you<[you as a unified people].

That is how God spoke to Israel. Not to the individual so that one could interpret his way and another interpret God another way. God spoke to Israel as one unified people. All the division and conflict of teachings we see among Christendoms churches is caused of their failure to appreciate this. Each one of you is acting like you are independent of the other. As a result your (that is Christendom's) lack of unity dims the light of God in all of your (Christendom's) little separated and even segregated clicks one called Baptist, another Lutheran, another Episcopalians and on an on. That is how serious this subject is. You (Christendom) have been being like those Paul spoke to at 1 Corinthians 1:10-12 all because you (Christendom) have not allowed God to bring you to the oneness in Christ.

Such disunity does not exist in Christ where all is one body, one spirit, one mind of Christ.

 

[friend of]

My friend told me the other day for God to not spare the rod on me. God wants us to have control over our whole body and that when we master our tongues God will be pleased. But Jesus is sufficient for all sin. Jesus saves and He will not undo his sacrifice to all who believe and are born agian.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Yes, you are close to right. The difference between how we would view it in English and how it is viewed in Greek are often very subtle and we must really think about it before we can distinguish the finite difference.

Eph 1:11-14 [In Him also we <[the group of us] have obtained an inheritance,]
[we the group of us] being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we <[the group of us] who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

(I will insert an edit here: See the predestined group, here: Acts 15:14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name." - compare (1 Peter 2:10) - (Hosea 2:21-23) Israel was the foreshadow of the Christian congregation in Christ - one body - one spirit - one mind of Christ - a unified people to God's praise and glory. Way back at Genesis 3:15 God prepared to send Christ as the seed of the woman and God knew there would be meek ones to be found and brought into Christ as a unified people to his praise and glory. )

13 In Him you <[like saying yous, or, you people] also trusted, after you [you people] heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, [you people] having believed,

you <[you people] were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Compare that last part of verse 13 and verse 14 to:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you<[as in yous, or, all of you together - for such teaching together brings about unity] all things, and bring all things to your <[unified selves as one together] remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you<[you as a unified people].

That is how God spoke to Israel. Not to the individual so that one could interpret his way and another interpret God another way. God spoke to Israel as one unified people. All the division and conflict of teachings we see among Christendoms churches is caused of their failure to appreciate this. Each one of you is acting like you are independent of the other. As a result your (that is Christendom's) lack of unity dims the light of God in all of your (Christendom's) little separated and even segregated clicks one called Baptist, another Lutheran, another Episcopalians and on an on. That is how serious this subject is. You (Christendom) have been being like those Paul spoke to at 1 Corinthians 1:10-12 all because you (Christendom) have not allowed God to bring you to the oneness in Christ.

Such disunity does not exist in Christ where all is one body, one spirit, one mind of Christ.

\\

God spoke to the whole when speaking to Israel, but to each one to apply what is told to the whole. You cannot have a they if there is only one person and you cannot apply it to a the whole group without applying it to each person. No group can achieve salvation for each person, they come on their on and receive salvation as individuals. No where in the scriptures is there ever an example of someone receiving salvation for another person. That is a strange teaching and I can understand why I have heard of such a thing. I doubt seriously if you have ever influenced to many people to receive your view of this strange understanding. I am going to drop out of this post.

 

[Buzz_B]

\\

God spoke to the whole when speaking to Israel, but to each one to apply what is told to the whole. You cannot have a they if there is only one person and you cannot apply it to a the whole group without applying it to each person. No group can achieve salvation for each person, they come on their on and receive salvation as individuals. No where in the scriptures is there ever an example of someone receiving salvation for another person. That is a strange teaching and I can understand why I have heard of such a thing. I doubt seriously if you have ever influenced to many people to receive your view of this strange understanding. I am going to drop out of this post.

If you would rather believe that than to do a line by line search of the Scriptures asking yourself whether what is said supports or disproves your ideas, that is out of my hands. Until you do that line by line search for yourself you will just argue away anything we who have done that speak to you. You cannot know where we are coming from if you refuse to go there and see.

I mean, how ridiculous is it to speak such obvious things as, "No group can achieve salvation for each person." You are clearly just practicing avoidance. Either that or you are one of those who claim God will save everyone and no one will perish. Oh, I forgot, you say we are individually called by name and that God does it all for us. Or was that aiki?

OSAS is so blatantly unscriptural there is no way anyone who believes it can possibly be using more than small pieces of their Bible. That is the fact. A line by line comparison of your ideas throughout the Bible proves to be some 99% against your ideas. You have had your ears tickled and liked it so much you stagnated there.

You have bought into a false concept a God who changes. God is the same today as yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. He does not change.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

That remains true even under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

 

[Buzz_B]

Dear OSAS believers, allow yourselves to reason on the following:

Galatians 2:21 “I don't make void the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!” (World English Bible)

You understand that verse as if Paul is telling us that James does not know what he is talking about at James 2:24 and has erred in saying, “You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.”

The mistake you are making is to not obtain Paul's perspective before making your judgment of what he meant. Please allow me to help you:

The law being spoken of by Paul is the Old Law Covenant. If righteousness was able to come through that Law, why would that mean Christ died in vain?

Now, you likely think, 'Well, because then we would not need Christ for righteousness.'

While you are not incorrect in that answer you are incomplete in that answer.

Paul understood that the Old Law Covenant condemned us all to death. Think about that. Why did we need Christ? Pay attention: Ephesians 2:1b “..... you were dead in transgressions and sins..”

Do you get it now? If that Law could give us righteousness then we would not be dead and for the reason that we would not be dead we would not need Christ.

What Paul said at Galatians 2:21 therefore has nothing to do with our not needing law for salvation. What Paul said amounted to that if that law did not kill us by proving us worthy of death, then Christ died for no reason. But many of you have twisted Paul's words into what they are not. His words were not in any way to diminish our need of law.

Thus James is correct and all who have berated James need to apologize to God for speaking ill of his faithful servant, James.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If you would rather believe that than to do a line by line search of the Scriptures asking yourself whether what is said supports or disproves your ideas, that is out of my hands. Until you do that line by line search for yourself you will just argue away anything we who have done that speak to you. You cannot know where we are coming from if you refuse to go there and see.

I mean, how ridiculous is it to speak such obvious things as, "No group can achieve salvation for each person." You are clearly just practicing avoidance. Either that or you are one of those who claim God will save everyone and no one will perish. Oh, I forgot, you say we are individually called by name and that God does it all for us. Or was that aiki?

OSAS is so blatantly unscriptural there is no way anyone who believes it can possibly be using more than small pieces of their Bible. That is the fact. A line by line comparison of your ideas throughout the Bible proves to be some 99% against your ideas. You have had your ears tickled and liked it so much you stagnated there.

You have bought into a false concept a God who changes. God is the same today as yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. He does not change.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

That remains true even under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Too bad you did not read the next verse which gives the Holy Spirit inspired conclusion, Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yet be aware of all the warnings from YHWH - he who thinks he stands may fall;
he who was grafted in may be cut out again; be terrified lest any believer be found to fall short ; "will you also leave?" after most disciples left Him;
and worst words to hear, ever: "be gone" (to those who may have believed osas, and did not find out until judgment day they were never known)

"we" who do not draw back to perdition,
are separated from those who DO draw back to perdition.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Someone as most of those that wrongly state what those of us believe about the eternal security of God don't grasp what we believe therefore they state what they think is our belief. Most of believe that both James and Paul are describing the same truth. James simply said that if someone says he has faith, what does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Noticed that James includes this his statement, but they don't have any works to verify that they do have faith. Then he says can that type of faith be saving when he does not demonstrate it by obedience such as this; If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Anyone can see that there is no faith being shown by such a person. So James says again; Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. No good works shows there is no faith involved. So James goes on and adds this: But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Real saving faith will demonstrate that faith by producing good works which Paul said was produced by God through faith and that was ordained by God before time on earth began. Read it for yourself; Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Which is stated exactly what James summed up by say this in James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Paul showed saving faith produces good works, James said no good works produced is like a body without a spirit, both are dead. To say that we don't understand Paul and James is only said by someone who does not understand what either one of them has been lead to write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Understanding the text in context will increase everyone's blessings and peace in their hearts to know that He who began a good work in you will perform it unto the end, Paul was persuaded of this very fact and penned it, Phil 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

This is what I would tell someone what I believe concerning the phrase: OSAS, with a strong emphasis on once, teaches all sin has been atoned for and by His one offering He has perfected us forever(Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified) and removed us from the curse of the law having been made a curse for us. Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. Therefore saints can no longer be condemned(Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus)Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord Therefore, concluding this amazing truth, how can one that has been perfected forever and has been redeemed from the curse of law by Jesus ever be condemned again, it would nullify His truth which was spoken and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Then I would ask them this from v39 above; Are you persuaded, by faith in His word, you can be, if you believe what He has said, and not what someone may suggest that He has said, did He really say....?

 

[Buzz_B]

Too bad you did not read the next verse which gives the Holy Spirit inspired conclusion, Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Some people who have drawn back to perdition don't even know they have done so.

All it takes is to run around teaching false doctrines and resist letting anyone assist you to see your error.

Paul didn't say the verse you quoted for the purpose of indicating that it is impossible for a righteous man to turn back to unrighteousness. Unlike you, Paul appreciated that Ezekiel 33:18 is yet true. He said what you quoted to encourage that as a resolve on the part of the hearer. He wanted his listeners to be resolved in themselves to not let that happen to them. But to know that one cannot use the one verse tunnel vision you use. You get so elated over a singular verse that you interpret with joy that it proves what you wish to believe when if you had weighed the verse against a greater context of Paul's thoughts in his writings you would have known that it does not support what it first appeared to support. Your haste in failing to do that is a dangerous way to interpret Paul, for even though you say you are not the sort that draws back to perdition and believe that only applies to those who never really were in Christ, Peter warned us, quote, "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

And I know that because you would rather argue than understand, you will come back with John's words at 1 John 2:19. However that is a wresting of John's words. For John did not say these ones were never in Christ. It was you that justified your self to say they were never in Christ by wresting John's words there by giving meaning to them which is not there. The only sort John meant those who left were not is the sort that remain faithful. The sort that does not do like a dog returning to it's vomit. The sort that is faithful to quickly confess their sins and get back right with Christ as John mentioned at 1 John 1:9. But you prefer John to mean whatever might support you, don't you.

I speak to encourage you to wake up.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Some people who have drawn back to perdition don't even know they have done so.

All it takes is to run around teaching false doctrines and resist letting anyone assist you to see your error.

Paul didn't say the verse you quoted for the purpose of indicating that it is impossible for a righteous man to turn back to unrighteousness. Unlike you, Paul appreciated that Ezekiel 33:18 is yet true. He said what you quoted to encourage that as a resolve on the part of the hearer. He wanted his listeners to be resolved in themselves to not let that happen to them. But to know that one cannot use the one verse tunnel vision you use. You get so elated over a singular verse that you interpret with joy that it proves what you wish to believe when if you had weighed the verse against a greater context of Paul's thoughts in his writings you would have known that it does not support what it first appeared to support. Your haste in failing to do that is a dangerous way to interpret Paul, for even though you say you are not the sort that draws back to perdition and believe that only applies to those who never really were in Christ, Peter warned us, quote, "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

And I know that because you would rather argue than understand, you will come back with John's words at 1 John 2:19. However that is a wresting of John's words. For John did not say these ones were never in Christ. It was you that justified your self to say they were never in Christ by wresting John's words there by giving meaning to them which is not there. The only sort John meant those who left were not is the sort that remain faithful. The sort that does not do like a dog returning to it's vomit. The sort that is faithful to quickly confess their sins and get back right with Christ as John mentioned at 1 John 1:9. But you prefer John to mean whatever might support you, don't you.

I speak to encourage you to wake up.

Who was wrestling John's words; I will show you and let you decide.Here is what you said: So you said" And I know that because you would rather argue than understand, you will come back with John's words at 1 John 2:19. However that is a wresting of John's words. For John did not say these ones were never in Christ." Those are your own words in your post.

Here is the verse quoted from the NKJ 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. And if that is not your preferred translation, here are a few more, why not tell me again that John did not say, they left to show us they were never of us.
New International Version
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
New Living Translation
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.
English Standard Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Berean Study Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
Berean Literal Bible
They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.
New American Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
King James Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
International Standard Version
They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.

 

[Buzz_B]

Who was wrestling John's words; I will show you and let you decide.Here is what you said: So you said" And I know that because you would rather argue than understand, you will come back with John's words at 1 John 2:19. However that is a wresting of John's words. For John did not say these ones were never in Christ." Those are your own words in your post.

Here is the verse quoted from the NKJ 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. And if that is not your preferred translation, here are a few more, why not tell me again that John did not say, they left to show us they were never of us.
New International Version
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
New Living Translation
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.
English Standard Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Berean Study Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
Berean Literal Bible
They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.
New American Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
King James Bible
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
International Standard Version
They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.

Good. That shows I struck a nerve with you. Now all you need do is understand that those who receive enlightenment in Christ (for it can be received no place else as you ought certainly know) and then turned and went back out from Christ most certainly never belonged there in the first place. But they had to have been there in Christ or they would not have had that enlightenment to turn away from would they.

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Now repent your misrepresenting John's words to claim John meant that they never were in Christ.

Edit: iwbswiaihl, I am not condemning you. The reason I know what you are doing is that I used to believe the things you do and I made all the same mistakes in support of those beliefs as you are making. I was very harshly chastised of God for it and awakened and forced to have to repent it. And so i know you too can repent it. Until you do you will not be able to know all you are failing to see. At present, if nothing else do not teach others. For in teaching others you will only reap greater chastisement from god to yourself.

I even worry that you may have gotten your wresting of John's words from me back in the days of my self-elated ignorance. For as far back as fifty years ago I was touting that wresting of John's words, back in my younger days when I could not see that my pride had blinded me.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Good. That shows I struck a nerve with you. Now all you need do is understand that those who receive enlightenment in Christ (for it can be received no place else as you ought certainly know) and then turned and went back out from Christ most certainly never belonged there in the first place. But they had to have been there in Christ or they would not have had that enlightenment to turn away from would they.

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Now repent your misrepresenting John's words to claim John meant that they never were in Christ.

Edit: iwbswiaihl, I am not condemning you. The reason I know what you are doing is that I used to believe the things you do and I made all the same mistakes in support of those beliefs as you are making. I was very harshly chastised of God for it and awakened and forced to have to repent it. And so i know you too can repent it. Until you do you will not be able to know all you are failing to see.

I notice that your assumptions of what I think are actually what you think, that I am thinking, no nerve struck on my end. Just amazed that you keep wanting to say that scripture is wrong because it shows your beliefs are not scriptural. Now you are trying to explain away exactly what John wrote and stated that they were never of them. God gave a warning to those who want to add to His word. Others can read for themselves what we both have posted, bottom lines is, the scriptures speak for themselves. Have a great day.