OSAS and Apostasy

[thesunisout]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

As you've mentioned there is reason to believe that God is sovereign over men to elect them to salvation and that men freely choose to follow Jesus Christ and receive salvation. In my opinion, freely choose in this sense; that which is a sufficient cause to establish guilt at the judgment seat of Christ. I think men are guilty based on what they do or don't do so the things they do (or don't) have legal implications for them at the judgment seat. I don't think in the operations of God that anything could ever triumph over His sovereign will. God has already declared the end from the beginning and nothing will change what His word says must shortly take place. However God holds men accountable for rejecting Him in Romans 1 and gives a few reasons why men were guilty for doing so. So to me I don't know how to square the circle, but a local Pastor who is a Calvinist in a sense says while God may be sovereign over election, we are awesomely responsible for our choices.

 

[redleghunter]

Ezekiel 18:24 sheds light on Jesus's words when He says, "I never knew you." in Matthew 7:23.

Ezekiel 18:24 says that if a righteous person does iniquity (sin), all their previous righteousness will not be remembered. Seeing God associates with the righteous, he will no longer remember them anymore. It will be as if He... never knew them. For there is nothing to remember because no previous righteousness exists anymore.

It is worth taking note that the reason why Jesus told them to depart from Him was not because they did many wonderful works, but it was because they worked iniquity (sin).

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).

If that was not enough,

Jesus drives home the point even more by saying if we do not do what He says, we are likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See Matthew 7:26-27).

Oh, and there is even more in Matthew 7 (as I am sure you are aware).

The new Covent is based on the Righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 3:21, 22; 10:3-4; Philippians 3:9-11. The imputed righteousness is particularly that of Jesus Christ 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30

Also Romans 4:5-12; 5:18-21

Praise be to God!

And no this does not mean we can disobey God. We have a new Lord and as such we obey Him.

 

[redleghunter]

I am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....

"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.

John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!

So Calvin should have died because of a lapsing Baptist who was in extreme error and sin.

So you would have a Semi-Pelagian Pope kill Calvin due to his Biblical teachings?

No answer necessary as I'm just pointing out the irony.

 

[redleghunter]

The flip side is that does Christ remember our past sin when we are forgiven by Him when we accept Him? No. “God casts our sins as far as the east is from the west” When Christ (God) is saying, "He never knew someone" it is in relation to their good deeds. If their good deeds will no longer be remembered... it will be as if they will no longer be remembered anymore because the deeds are tied to the memory of the person.

Ezekiel 18:24 says if a righteous man commits iniquity all their previous righteousness will not be remembered.

Good point. However the very spark or starting point is whose or Whose righteousness do we trust?

It's what is our foundation on Christ the Rock or sand.

 

[redleghunter]

John Calvin would have excommunicated this lady.

Given the time much worse. She may have been tried as a witch.

 

[thesunisout]

yep -- play the 'no true scotsman' card -- they were never TRULY saved to begin with, etc

that covers the bases and leaves the OSAS doctrine pat...

Thanks for reminding me of this logical fallacy. Atheists used it against me to counter my argument that some ex-atheists didn't ever know the Lord.

 

[DamianWarS]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

Salvation is a product of grace but not the end instead what it allows is restored relationship with God and this is what our focus should be. We shouldn't be asking if we can loose our salvation but rather if we can loose our relationship with God. The answer to the latter is 'yes' and this should be the concern.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Ezekiel 18:24 sheds light on Jesus's words when He says, "I never knew you." in Matthew 7:23.

And he did never know them. He never knew this certain people he was talking about, but why does that cover everyone? Some he did know and they fell away as in the biblical explanation of the Parable of The Sower, look it up, (Mathew 13:18-23) see how different people believed/were saved/had faith and the different times they fell away, or didn't fall away. Some lasted awhile, some did not, but some were definitely saved and fell away. How does that verse say others did not fall away? You guys need to open your eyes all the way, not just half way, not just enough to see what you want or what some want you to see....no offense intended.

This thread is riddled with Just because someone in the Bible said this that or the other thing about someone, that means it covers everyone in every instance.

Yes John says "not of us."

And it was not of them the way they were presently acting but if they fall away, it goes for them too. Why cant that be true? Why cut that obvious possibility out?....There is just no reason too. You all are getting what you are trained to get out of that wording and can see no further...it's very sad, and as I think I mentioned on this thread, a little creepy as well.

 

[Tree of Life]

Salvation is a product of grace but not the end instead what it allows is restored relationship with God and this is what our focus should be. We shouldn't be asking if we can loose our salvation but rather if we can loose our relationship with God. The answer to the latter is 'yes' and this should be the concern.

Jesus defines salvation as relationship with God in John 17:3.

 

[sdowney717]

You mean the difference between general call and effectual call. The difference of many are called but few are chosen?

Matthew 22:14

The only call that works resulting in glorification is entirely irresistible as it is written in the stars (heavens) as the will of God.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[sdowney717]

I would suggest, and I think that the Bible teaches, that if one denies Christ then they never truly accepted him to begin with.



Indeed he does. People are condemned because God hardens them in their sin.



If someone apostatizes, it's because they never had salvation to begin with.

Agree, some who is a Christ denier is an antichrist, so obviously not a saved person. John says those who depart from the church in unbelief are antichrists, showing they were not of them who believe. I do think people do repent of their unbelief if God grants repentance. Paul certainly prayed for his unbelieving brethren the jews.
v20 teaches a truth many miss, it is similar to the one where Jesus says you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. The origin of all spiritual knowledge comes only from God.
People who are really born of God will know the truth and not depart the faith to follow demonic doctrines etc...

1 John 2
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And he did never know them. He never knew this certain people he was talking about, but why does that cover everyone?

I know it may not cover everyone. But if the OSAS Proponent wants to make that case, it still does not work in my view according to Ezekiel 18:24.

Some he did know and they fell away as in the biblical explanation of the Parable of The Sower, look it up, (Mathew 13:18-23) see how different people believed/were saved/had faith and the different times they fell away, or didn't fall away. Some lasted awhile, some did not, but some were definitely saved and fell away. How does that verse say others did not fall away? You guys need to open your eyes all the way, not just half way, not just enough to see what you want or what some want you to see....no offense intended.

First, it should be obvious to you by what I said so far that I believe in Conditional Salvationism as taught in the Bible. Chances are this means I am familar with the two who fell away in the Parable of the Sower. In fact, to say for me to "look it up" is a little insulting because it suggest that I was born again just yesterday (Which is not the case). I have argued against Eternal Security or a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief for many years now. I know all the excuses or verses and or lingo that they use. It does not stand up in light of Scripture and or basic morality. The fact that I even have to tell them that Eternal Security is wrong on many levels is astonishing to me.

This thread is riddled with Just because someone in the Bible said this that or the other thing about someone, that means it covers everyone in every instance.

Yes, I know that. I was not making that case or argument. But I was merely pointing out how that even if they wanted that passsage to say that.... it still doesn't work (IMHO).

And it was not of them the way they were presently acting but if they fall away, it goes for them too. Why cant that be true? Why cut that obvious possibility out?....There is just no reason too. You all are getting what you are trained to get out of that wording and can see no further...it's very sad, and as I think I mentioned on this thread, a little creepy as well.

People see things they want to see for their own personal reasons. I always strive to keep looking at God's Word again and ask the Lord... "Am I right on this interpretation, Lord?"

While it may be creepy or disheartening that others may think they can break God’s laws (on some level) and still be saved, I always strive to pray for them and hold out hope and to love them with everything I got.

 

[fhansen]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

We hold those truths together by simply acknowledging that one cannot know with 100% certainty which category they ultimately fall into, whether they'll be one who perseveres or not. So, yes, we can say, as a rather academic point, that the elect are, well, the elect! And that those will be the people who persevere.

We just can't know what God alone knows, which is who to apply that status to even though its quite natural to wish to apply it to ourselves. But the practical truth is that those who care will simply act accordingly. They will strive, they will struggle, they won't rest on their laurels. They will trust in God while having a healthy concern regarding their performance in pleasing Him.

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE TO POST#

1. the "elect"
2. "persevere/endure to the end to be saved"

BOTH are false doctrine!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good point. However the very spark or starting point is whose or Whose righteousness do we trust?

The Righteousness that we trust is always God’s righteousness alone. I believe Jesus saves not only by believing in His death and resurrection and in seeking His forgiveness, but I also believe Jesus saved us from living a life of sin (i.e. He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil - 1 John 3:8). It is not my righteousness alone when I obey God’s commands. It is the Lord working in me. For Jesus tells us to pray so as to be led away from temptation and He says we can do nothing without Him. So if I do great things for God and obey Him through out the week that pleases Him, I don’t look in a mirror and scream, “Hey everyone! Come see how good I look!” I don’t pat myself on my back and place notes everywhere of how awesome I am. No, no. Most certainly not. That is the false self help motivation teaching of the world; And it has even slithered it’s way into Christianity. For example: There is is an animated nativity film called: “The Star” that just came out on DVD and I was watching the special features on it. One of the creators for the film was pushing to kids of how they can achieve their dreams. I am sorry, but that is not the life of a Christian. It is forsaking all and following Jesus and doing God’s will and not our own will. This life is not about us just being happy in what we want always. We have to preach the gospel and help the poor and love our enemies.

Any or all good done in our life is the result of God working in us. For God alone is good. So all praise, glory, and honor are to be given to the Lord.

It's what is our foundation on Christ the Rock or sand.

But the materials of the building that is built on the foundation (Jesus) cannot be sin. Nobody can build sin upon the foundation of Jesus. If we defile our temple by sin, God will destroy us (1 Corinthians 3). The buliding materials that are burned up are good things we believed were good for the Lord, but they turned out to not bring about the intended result it should have. They are weaker or lesser human good works that will be burned up.

Also, Matthew 7:26-27 does not push OSAS. It says, if any man does not do what Jesus says, they are likened to being like a fool who built his house on the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. This lined up with Jesus saying depart from me to certain believers because they worked iniquity or sin. They did many wonderful works, but the problem was is that they also sinned or worked iniquity. It is why Jesus says elsewhere that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. For working sin makes one unprofitable. For a tree is known by its fruit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The new Covent is based on the Righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 3:21, 22; 10:3-4; Philippians 3:9-11. The imputed righteousness is particularly that of Jesus Christ 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30

Also Romans 4:5-12; 5:18-21

Praise be to God!

And no this does not mean we can disobey God. We have a new Lord and as such we obey Him.

1 John 1:7 talks about the true imputation of Christ’s sacrifice that many ignore. It says if we walk in the light as He is in the light (i.e. obey his commandments) then Christ’s blood cleanses us from all sin. Compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4.

Read Jude 1:4 in the NIV or look at several translations. It says that there are those who wrongfully make God’s grace into a license for immortality.

Oh and one can deny God by a lack of works (See Titus 1:16). So you cannot make the case that Jude 1:4 is not talking about believers. But even if it was not talking about believers, why condemn something that believers do?

In addition, the end goal or purpose Christ gave Himself for us was not so that we can sin and still be saved but it was to make us holy, without blemish, and zealous of good works (See Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:14).

 

[JoeP222w]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

Those who apostatize never truly were Christian, never born again, never regenerate, never truly trusted in Jesus Christ. Who those people are we will never fully know this side of the grave.

Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.

True.

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

False. Show us where in the Bible where it say, in context, that true believers in Jesus Christ fall away from the faith.

While a Christian can fall into a season of sin, they will not remain there. But that does not automatically mean that they are apostate.

Have you loved God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength perfectly today? Have you loved your neighbor perfectly today? If you have not, and if you are honest and humble, you will admit that you have failed in this, does that mean you have apostatized? No, of course not.


Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ (23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Jesus is referring to false believers. If Jesus never knew them, they never were believers in Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who apostatize never truly were Christian, never born again, never regenerate, never truly trusted in Jesus Christ. Who those people are we will never fully know this side of the grave.

Try telling that to many who have apostatized. Many of them will tell you that they truly believed in Jesus and followed Him. Of course they could be lying, but logic dictates that we have free will in this life. Logic dictates that we are living this life so as to show whether or not we truly love God or not. Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul says if any love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema (accursed) (1 Corinthians 16:22).

True.

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Not true because one would have to wear OSAS rose colored glasses so as to ignore all the warnings about falling away in the Bible. Oh, and what kind of sheep is Jesus describing in John 10:28-29? Is Jesus talking about lazy or lost sheep or wolves in sheeps clothing? No. Jesus is talking about the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).

Is one following Jesus if they admit to the fact that they will sin again as a matter of fact? I would say "no" because Jesus never thought like that or even taught such a thing.

False. Show us where in the Bible where it say, in context, that true believers in Jesus Christ fall away from the faith.

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

While a Christian can fall into a season of sin, they will not remain there. But that does not automatically mean that they are apostate.

Think about this for a second. No doubt you believe that a believer is still saved even when they are living in sin for a season. If this is the case, then they can deceive themselves that they can always live like that. But you say they will not remain that way. How is doing a little bit of evil for a time any different than doing lots of evil unchecked their entire lives? I would say there is no difference because to teach that we can get away with even one sin is to turn God's grace into a license for immorality. For how many sins did it take for Adam to be separated from God spiritually? It only took one sin.

Oh, and do you believe that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved?
George Sodini (Who strongly believed in Eternal Security) was a mass murderer and suicide victim. He wrote a letter before he died saying how his evil actions would be forgiven because he believed his salvation did not depend on works.

You can read up about him here:

George Sodini.

Have you loved God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength perfectly today? Have you loved your neighbor perfectly today? If you have not, and if you are honest and humble, you will admit that you have failed in this, does that mean you have apostatized? No, of course not.

I take the greatest command in loving God in part to mean this...

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).

For actions speak louder than mere words.
Yes, we should love God on an emotional level.
But true love also includes faithfulness, as well.
A servant to a king who does his own thing is not really a servant but an enemy to the king.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Okay. Stop right here.

What is the will of the Father?

1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that God's will is for us to be holy (or our sanctification).

This confirms what Matthew 7:21 says. It says not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Meaning, not everyone who just pays lip service or believes they are saved is going to be saved. But He that does the WILL (action) of the Father.

Is it God's will that we sin and think we are saved? No. Yet, that is what many here want us to wrongfully believe.

(22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ (23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Jesus did not condemn these believers because they did many wonderful works as some OSAS proponents teach. Jesus condemned them because He said they worked iniquity or lawlessness. You can sin just once and be in a state of lawlessness towards God unless you repent (i.e. ask for His forgiveness).

Jesus is referring to false believers. If Jesus never knew them, they never were believers in Jesus Christ.

First, as pointed out before, this does not mean that Jesus is speaking for all believers here. Jesus could be speaking to only those believers who never met Him. This does not discount the truth taught elsewhere that believers had received the gospel with joy and then later fell away due to either the cares of this life or being ashamed for persecution's sake (as taught in the Parable of the Sower). Second, in Ezekiel 18:24, we are told that if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and does iniquity, all his previous righteousness will not be remembered. Seeing God associates with knowing a believer by their doing righteousness (See 1 John 3:7, and 1 John 3:10), if they do evil or sin, they will be as if God never knew them because God will forever forget them based on their evil deeds that they have chosen to later do. For just as a believer's sins are forgotten (forgiven) as far as the east unto the west, on the flip side, the same is also true if a righteous believer sins again and goes back to eating the vomit like when he/she did when they were a dog. God will forever forget them and act like He has never met them because of the evil they did. For if a righteous man does iniquity, all his previous righteousness (that God associates a righteous person with) will not be remembered.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The new Covent is based on the Righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 3:21, 22; 10:3-4; Philippians 3:9-11. The imputed righteousness is particularly that of Jesus Christ 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30

Also Romans 4:5-12; 5:18-21

Praise be to God!

And no this does not mean we can disobey God. We have a new Lord and as such we obey Him.

We are also chosen unto salvation by the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit, as well.

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Why should we perfect holiness in the fear of God if we are not to fear god? We are also told to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. That would be here in this life and not the next one. We are to perfect holiness. Holiness. How can we do that if we think we will always sin as it is a matter of fact or if we think we can sin and still be saved. Is that kind of thinking a part of God's holiness? Surely not.

 

[redleghunter]

And it was not of them the way they were presently acting but if they fall away, it goes for them too. Why cant that be true? Why cut that obvious possibility out?....There is just no reason too. You all are getting what you are trained to get out of that wording and can see no further...it's very sad, and as I think I mentioned on this thread, a little creepy as well.

What's sad is if we cannot take the apostles words at face value .