OSAS and Apostasy

[Ron Gurley]

APOSTASY: a forgivable sin!
Parable of the Prodigal Son
Parable of the Lost Coin
Parable of the 99+1 Sheep

God wants His SAVED children to go through the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS!!

Hebrews 4:16
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jer 8:5
“Why then has this people, Jerusalem,
Turned away in continual apostasy?
They hold fast to deceit,
They refuse to return.

Hosea 14:4
I will heal their apostasy,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from them.

2 Thess. 2:3
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless "THE apostasy" comes first, and the "man of lawlessness" (anti-christ) is revealed, the son of destruction,

apostasy ...Hebrew 4878...mĕshuwbah...turning away, turning back, ...backsliding

the apostasy ...Greek 646... apostasia...a falling away (from following), defection (from truth)

"returning to condemnation under sin"
Nope!

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. (saved into the Body of Christ)

"if they continue to disbelieve they certainly cannot be 'forgiven' under the blood of Christ."

Nope! The SPIRITUAL POSITION of true believers is covered BY / paid FOR by the "blood of Christ".

1 John 1:7..FOR SAVED BELIEVERS only!
...but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Ephesians 2:13 ...But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Revelation 1:5 ...and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

Salvation is not merely a past event
(NOTE: there is NO FUTURE TENSE IN GREEK!...will/shall BE = is certain to be)

Salvation EVENT is completed action event, PAST AORIST TENSE!

John 5:24 (all NASB)...(Jesus"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but "has passed" out of death into life.(NOW!)

1 John 3:14..We (believers) know that we "have passed" out of death into life..(NOW!)

Luke 7:50...And He said to the woman (CAUGHT IN SIN), "Your faith "has saved" you; go in peace." (NOW!)

Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10...4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
—it is by grace (unmerited favor) you "have been saved".
8 For by GRACE (love/mercy) "you have been SAVED" through FAITH; and that (FAITH/BELIEF) not of yourselves, it is the (spiritual) GIFT of God;
9 NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Romans 8:24 ...For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Matthew 27:42 ...“He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.

Romans 8..For in this hope we were saved

 

[Ron Gurley]

Isaiah 55: 7 (NASB)
Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him RETURN to the Lord, (REPENT!)
And He will have compassion on him, (FORGIVENESS!)
And to our God,
For He will abundantly PARDON.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Did Peter "lose" his standing with Christ after denying Christ three times? This only hours before calling him clean except for Judas.

Now Christ did in John 21 restore Peter. Who initiated that restoration? Peter or Jesus?

And that to you means no one can lose salvation? Because someone may lose salvation and gain it back or in some cases do bad but don't quite lose their salvation, all of which is up to God/something common he has to deal with all the time, far from means no one loses their salvation.

You are seeing things from a extremely narrow perspective and that often allows us to only see what we choose to, but if you just use a little reason, you can easily see how what happened there, can happen, yet many others can still lose salvation, for, say, lack of repentance, for one example.

 

[Ron Gurley]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

 

[aiki]

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

Simply because you say it is a "common error" to deny one or the other of the two points you offer does not make it so. An Arminianist would say you are in error in one direction while the Calvinist would say you are in error in the other. How is that you understand better than both camps what the facts of the matter actually are?

 

[Kenny'sID]

APOSTASY: a forgivable sin!
Parable of the Prodigal Son
Parable of the Lost Coin
Parable of the 99+1 Sheep

All but one sin is forgivable, no one is arguing that, and if they are, please show me?
Repent and return to God. But that doesn't mean they cannot lose their salvation, and for instance, not repent and come back.

All those people/things either came back or were found by their rejoicing owner. If we are lost, it is by our own hand, and the only way we can be found again is by not being lost by our own hand....or stop doing what caused us to be lost.

IOW, we can't be found unless we do that and allow God to find us.

The Prodigal son, went off, he sinned and simply decided to stop and return home, and was accepted back, That's the whole point of the parable. But, some choose to see we can go off/fall away, stay off, and be fine, or God will somehow force us back, so we ca never be lost. No one forced him back, he came back of his own free will.

All those scriptures only show how happy God is to have us back, but again, some make a whole region out of it somehow. Some of us cannot even get out of those scriptures what OSASr's do because we have not accepted it and been trained to get what you do out of it. And that is exactly what takes, to be trained by man, not the bible.

Here, be trained by the bible...look at the following scripture and show us where the subject even so much as tends towards this people/things being forced back or never able to be lost.

The very subject was Jesus getting berated for eating with sinners, and him showing then, with the parables how glad/willing God is to accept us/them back, nothing more:

Luke 15 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
15 Then drew near unto Him all the publicans and sinners to hear Him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This man receiveth sinners and eateth with them.”

3 And He spoke this parable unto them, saying,

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

7 I say unto you that likewise more joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety and nine just persons who need no repentance.

8 “Or what woman, having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle and sweep the house and seek diligently until she find it?

9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I had lost!’

10 Likewise I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”

11 And He said, “A certain man had two sons.

12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me.’ And he divided unto them his estate.

13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land, and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine ate, and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father and will say unto him, “Father, I have sinned against Heaven and before thee,

19 and am no more worthy to be called thy son. Make me as one of thy hired servants.”’

20 And he arose and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, ‘Father, I have sinned against Heaven and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.’

22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring forth the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet.

23 And bring hither the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and be merry;

24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

25 “Now his elder son was in the field; and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, ‘Thy brother is come, and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.’

28 And he was angry and would not go in; therefore came his father out and entreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years have I served thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment; and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends.

30 But as soon as this thy son was come who hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.’

31 And he said unto him, ‘Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry and be glad; for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.’”

 

[Phil 1:21]

"28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

 

[Kenny'sID]

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

I'd like to touch on this learned defense again, learned by/from man and a recent popular comment when debating this. And this isn't all directed at TOL either, he/she, just happened to be the one to mention it this time around.

Does anyone see the deception in that? The trickery?

If we disagree with the comment quoted, we will then be guilty of saying Jesus is unable to save us, or that he is a failure. Huge guilt trip for those who don't see through it and there will be those who are taken in by that and they dare not disagree, and may tend towards a very dangerous false doctrine because they were tricked, bless their hearts.

See, the truth is, it has nothing to do with Jesus not being able to save us, he is the only thing that can save us, but as we all know from the onset, it is up to us to be saved or not, we accept the plan of salvation, we do what's required, we are responsible if we fall away, not Jesus. So, it's easy to see, Jesus falls short of nothing if we choose to get out there, muck around with sin, and get lost again, so why is Jesus responsible for not being able to save those that choose another route? I kid you not, it's a tricky comment, and a comment that is so untrue, it tells us all something so true about where it originates.... Know them by their fruits.

For those that are taken in, don't let them do that to you, as that is only one of many defenses they have to suck in the unaware, you look into what they say, be leery, and don't just look into what other OSASr's have to say, because they are most certainly going to mislead you as well. Please understand, people do that subconsciously, they prove out something they choose to believe with other proponents of any given false doctrine, so they get the answer they like, that helps them justify the "easy" in this case, false doctrine they choose.

As far as those who teach it, like I always say...very very bad idea.

 

[Tree of Life]

So are you saying if they do deny Christ after being saved, they are still saved? I ask because a few things you said didn't seem to jibe.

I would suggest, and I think that the Bible teaches, that if one denies Christ then they never truly accepted him to begin with.

Don't put this on Jesus just to make it sound convincing, that's a dirty trick. Jesus has nothing to do with people falling away and losing their salvation.

Indeed he does. People are condemned because God hardens them in their sin.

So again, do they lose salvation or not?? If they do, that ends OSAS, right there.

If someone apostatizes, it's because they never had salvation to begin with.

 

[Tree of Life]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (singular event), he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (unchanging, unending) life.
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (apostates, those who know the truth but do not believe in or on Christ) And then I will profess unto them, I NEVER (meaning not ever, not even once did you have faith in me or believe in me) knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Of course I don't disagree with any of these verses. Are you suggesting that they teach that someone who is born again can never go on to show the fruit of that new birth through faith and obedience?

 

[Tree of Life]

And before you go there, you don't know if they were "never saved to begin with" or not..only God knows that. Another favorite line learned from others, not the bible, that makes no sense at all....it only sounds good to some.

It actually is something we learned from the Bible. This is how John interprets apostasy in 1 John 2:19ff - 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If someone apostatizes, it's because they never had salvation to begin with.

That's another popular/learned from man, comment, but as I mentioned on another thread in the same neighborhood as this one, as well as commenting on it here, that just doesn't hold up, it only sounds good to those who want it too. Only God can know that, but let me just post this from the other day and though some already commented on it, see what your take is with no preconceived input.

Must? We can believe whatever we want, and I realize that is a very popular component of OSAS, however, number one, only God can know if anyone is saved or not,. So for that reason alone, that holds no water at all, and never has, but it especially will not work here, and I'm surprised anyone would even try it, the scripture is so clear.

In this case, it flat out says they "believed", and if anyone doesn't get the fact that scripture is saying they were saved for a time and then fell away/became unsaved, then they don't get it by choice. They live in a fantasy world that allows them to do as they wish because that's what they prefer, and not because the bible teaches it. They choose not to obey God because they are selfish and want it both ways, so they buy into and create delusions that allow them to believe what they want to be truth...it is not truth.

First, pay close attention to the terms "believed", and the same attention to this:

Act 16:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Hence, they believed/they were saved, and then pay attention to the term "fell away". Now what do you think Jesus means they fell away? What else could they have fallen away from? As I say so often in this area, I feel silly just having to explain what is so obvious.

There is simply no question here, unless someone chooses to try to confuse it into being questionable. Even the hotshot preachers that teach OSAS are going to have a tough time pulling a refute for this one out of their bag of tricks.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It actually is something we learned from the Bible. This is how John interprets apostasy in 1 John 2:19ff - 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

I think I already mentioned, some of us don't see what you all do because we didn't learn it from man. I personally look at that and have no idea how that says what you say it does.

This happens all too often here, it's almost creepy, how people see what may not be there.

How does that say people in general were never saved to begin with? See, that may happen as the scripture says, but it in no way rules out another group of people that were saved and fall away

Or, tell me how it does rule out every other possibility? And tell me how that says any and every so-called Christian that is not really Christian, or fell away, never was a Christian?

 

[Gideons300]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

It is actually quite easy. If both are true, then no one truly knows they are the elect. How do we know? We persevere to the end. The danger of misunderstanding this concerning OSAS is that many “feel” saved, and ignore all the multitude of scriptures that urge us to run our race as if there is but one prize. They think participation medals allow them no need to press, to resist, to be vigilant against a never sleeping adversary. They think all that is required of them is a one time prayer, go to church and, with itching ears, accept a twisted grace that requires no real response, and never leads them deeper into a holy walk with Christ.

What many of these sadly will discover at the end is that with both of these true, they were those who endured for a while but who ignored all the verses giving us great wisdom so that we can in fact be sure we are the called ones. And by doing so, they will unfortunatey be the ones shocked at the end to find that their ignoring those clear and consistent warnings will ultimately cost them eternity.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Tree of Life]

Simply because you say it is a "common error" to deny one or the other of the two points you offer does not make it so. An Arminianist would say you are in error in one direction while the Calvinist would say you are in error in the other. How is that you understand better than both camps what the facts of the matter actually are?

The way one would understand is through a thorough study of Scripture.

 

[aiki]

The way one would understand is through a thorough study of Scripture.

Right. But both Arminian and Calvinist Bible scholars have studied Scripture very thoroughly. Yet, they don't agree with you. So, then, how are you convinced you understand things better than they do?

 

[dqhall]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

Matthew 10:42 (WEB) Whoever gives one of these little ones just a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, most certainly I tell you he will in no way lose his reward.

What work can one do to be saved for all time?

John 4:14 (WEB) but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.

Eternal salvation is more than giving a cup of cold water to a thirsty saint on a hot day.

 

[Tree of Life]

Right. But both Arminian and Calvinist Bible scholars have studied Scripture very thoroughly. Yet, they don't agree with you. So, then, how are you convinced you understand things better than they do?

I would say that my position is the Calvinist position - or at least it was Calvin's position. Any Reformed scholar worth his salt would affirm it. However some of the Calvinist persuasion don't fully understand their view and mistakenly reject truth #2 in my list.

 

[Biblicist]

When I undertook a Google search to find an article by John Piper from a couple of years back where he addressed the issue as to why Calvinists and Reformed believers are often seen as being cold and arrogant, search parameter being [John Piper: Why are Calvinists so cold] I came across a number of similar interesting articles on this topic which most should find to be interesting reading.

Over the years I have often heard both Calvinists and Reformed being referred to as "God's frozen chosen" and rather impolitely, that you can always locate a Reformed church during summer by driving around and noticing which churches have icicles hanging off them during a heat weave.

This does not mean that we Arminians are completely free of this charge, but I must admit, that overall that the when the charge is laid against the more classical Calvinists and Reformed that it does seem to have a lot of merit.

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't care for the wording of the Westminster Confession, simply because it implies that a person isn't saved until the end of their life, if they persevere (which according to the doctrine of irresistible grace, means they will persevere no matter what). It's just tying a knot into a simple, very biblical concept - once a person is saved, they're saved immediately, forever.

Wouldn't you agree that this initial act of salvation (regeneration and justification) necessarily leads to growth in holiness and a life of faith?