OSAS and Apostasy

[Tree of Life]

But is it really necessary to go to even that. Why it is not enough to remain in what Jesus and Bible teaches? According to it, people can reject God, even when their sins have once been forgiven. Forgiveness is not revoked ever, but if person choses sins again, the forgiveness of the old sins is not useful anymore, because there is new sin.

This is Roman Catholic theology. Are you a Roman Catholic?

 

[Tree of Life]

When I undertook a Google search to find an article by John Piper from a couple of years back where he addressed the issue as to why Calvinists and Reformed believers are often seen as being cold and arrogant, search parameter being [John Piper: Why are Calvinists so cold] I came across a number of similar interesting articles on this topic which most should find to be interesting reading.

Over the years I have often heard both Calvinists and Reformed being referred to as "God's frozen chosen" and rather impolitely, that you can always locate a Reformed church during summer by driving around and noticing which churches have icicles hanging off them during a heat weave.

This does not mean that we Arminians are completely free of this charge, but I must admit, that overall that the when the charge is laid against the more classical Calvinists and Reformed that it does seem to have a lot of merit.

It may be a common ailment in certain Reformed communities. But I don't think that this is the fault of Reformed theology. I would blame sin for this.

 

[Anto9us]

yep -- play the 'no true scotsman' card -- they were never TRULY saved to begin with, etc

that covers the bases and leaves the OSAS doctrine pat...

 

[aiki]

I would say that my position is the Calvinist position - or at least it was Calvin's position. Any Reformed scholar worth his salt would affirm it. However some of the Calvinist persuasion don't fully understand their view and mistakenly reject truth #2 in my list.

This talks past my question (and its implied point).

 

[redleghunter]

And that to you means no one can lose salvation?

No I just demonstrated using the example given God is sovereign in salvation. If we are His none shall be plucked out of his hold.

 

[Tree of Life]

yep -- play the 'no true scotsman' card -- they were never TRULY saved to begin with, etc

that covers the bases and leaves the OSAS doctrine pat...

Indeed it is the Biblical explanation. See 1 John2:19ff.

 

[Tree of Life]

This talks past my question (and its implied point).

Then I'm not sure what your question or point was. Could you rephrase?

 

[Gideons300]

Wouldn't you agree that this initial act of salvation (regeneration and justification) necessarily leads to growth in holiness and a life of faith?

I agree wholeheartedly that it should. Now the fact that it most cases, it does not should bother the heck out of us. We have been taught that time is the key ingredient in our growth into holiness and purity. We are wrong. But we have all fallen asleep, blissfully never questioning why no one walks as a real overcomer, with the world, the flesh and the devil under their feet.

The promises of God have been gutted of their power simply because we do not believe them. We should be on our faces if Romans 7, rather than Romans 8 is our abode. We take solace that Paul himself battled in his Romans 7 imprisonment, but we miss the fact that he HATED his weakness and cried out without ceasing as a wretched man to be brought to the place of FREE INDEED that Christ so clearly promised us.

How many there are that think grace means God winks at our continued sins, ignoring the Bible’s clear word to us that true grace will teach us the HOW of walking as an overcomer.

Multitudes may be saved, but safe? Most don’t even long for it. We are told we have been delivered from the power of darkness, not just its penalty, but our itching ears are content with pardons and nicely furnished prison cells, waiting for physical death to accomplish what Christ in us could not.

We thinks God is winking at our continuing to sin and nurture our old man, waiting for time to somehow magically change us into “good Christians”. He is not winking. He is weeping. And we desperately need to join Him.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[redleghunter]

That's another popular/learned from man, comment, but as I mentioned on another thread in the same neighborhood as this one, as well as commenting on it here, that just doesn't hold up, it only sounds good to those who want it too. Only God can know that, but let me just post this from the other day and though some already commented on it, see what your take is with no preconceived input.

1 John 2: NKJV
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that theAntichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

It's a Biblical teaching.

What are the "fruits" of the apostasy? Denying Jesus is the Christ. We have entire forums here on the non Christian threads where posters admit they grew up Christian, made some commitment but fell away. Some even become rabid enemies of Christ. The anti theists among them.

 

[redleghunter]

It is actually quite easy. If both are true, then no one truly knows they are the elect. How do we know? We persevere to the end. The danger of misunderstanding this concerning OSAS is that many “feel” saved, and ignore all the multitude of scriptures that urge us to run our race as if there is but one prize. They think participation medals allow them no need to press, to resist, to be vigilant against a never sleeping adversary. They think all that is required of them is a one time prayer, go to church and, with itching ears, accept a twisted grace that requires no real response, and never leads them deeper into a holy walk with Christ.

What many of these sadly will discover at the end is that with both of these true, they were those who endured for a while but who ignored all the verses giving us great wisdom so that we can in fact be sure we are the called ones. And by doing so, they will unfortunatey be the ones shocked at the end to find that their ignoring those clear and consistent warnings will ultimately cost them eternity.

Blessings,

Gideon

Do we justify ourselves? Will we raise ourselves?

What part or action does a sovereign God have in our sanctification?

 

[Kenny'sID]

1 John 2: NKJV
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that theAntichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

It's a Biblical teaching.

What are the "fruits" of the apostasy? Denying Jesus is the Christ. We have entire forums here on the non Christian threads where posters admit they grew up Christian, made some commitment but fell away. Some even become rabid enemies of Christ. The anti theists among them.

Yet not a word of that states one cannot be born again and fall away. If it does, point it out to me, I simply do not see it in there anywhere.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And before you go there, you don't know if they were "never saved to begin with" or not..only God knows that. Another favorite line learned from others, not the bible, that makes no sense at all....it only sounds good to some.

Ezekiel 18:24 sheds light on Jesus's words when He says, "I never knew you." in Matthew 7:23.

Ezekiel 18:24 says that if a righteous person does iniquity (sin), all their previous righteousness will not be remembered. Seeing God associates with the righteous, he will no longer remember them anymore. It will be as if He... never knew them. For there is nothing to remember because no previous righteousness exists anymore.

It is worth taking note that the reason why Jesus told them to depart from Him was not because they did many wonderful works, but it was because they worked iniquity (sin).

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).

If that was not enough,

Jesus drives home the point even more by saying if we do not do what He says, we are likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See Matthew 7:26-27).

Oh, and there is even more in Matthew 7 (as I am sure you are aware).

 

[redleghunter]

Yet not a word of that states one cannot be born again and fall away. If it does, point it out to me, I simply do not see it in there anywhere.

Yes John says "not of us."

 

[Andrew Jeremiah]

Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.

Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.

Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.

The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.

Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:

1. Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
2. It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.

There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?

I don't agree with once saved, always saved.

I prefer: Once a son [or daughter] always a son [or daughter].

And if born of God then the PROMISE "I will never leave you nor forsake you" kicks in and God always keeps His promises.

And no, the Bible does not teach both.

Salvation is of the Lord, Jonah said (2:9).

All God is doing is preparing bodies to go with those names in the book of life of the lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8).

 

[rockytopva]

I am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....

"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.

John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!

 

[Tree of Life]

I find your post to be a little confusing.

I don't agree with once saved, always saved.

I prefer: Once a son [or daughter] always a son [or daughter].

And if born of God then the PROMISE "I will never leave you nor forsake you" kicks in and God always keeps His promises.

Do you think that the substance of these two ideas is different? It just sounds like a semantic difference to me. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

And no, the Bible does not teach both.

Which would you deny from #1 and #2 in the OP?

 

[Gideons300]

Do we justify ourselves? Will we raise ourselves?

What part or action does a sovereign God have in our sanctification?

Forgive me, but I am not exactly sure what you are asking of me. Can you clarify and I will do my best to answer you. Thanks in advance.

Gideon

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes John says "not of us."

The flip side is that does Christ remember our past sin when we are forgiven by Him when we accept Him? No. “God casts our sins as far as the east is from the west” When Christ (God) is saying, "He never knew someone" it is in relation to their good deeds. If their good deeds will no longer be remembered... it will be as if they will no longer be remembered anymore because the deeds are tied to the memory of the person.

Ezekiel 18:24 says if a righteous man commits iniquity all their previous righteousness will not be remembered.

 

[Tree of Life]

I am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....

"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.

This lady has a view tragically mistaken view of the Christian life. This is not what the OSAS doctrine teaches.

John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!

John Calvin would have excommunicated this lady.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

yep -- play the 'no true scotsman' card -- they were never TRULY saved to begin with, etc

A man escapes a burning building and stands mere feet from it, shouting, "I made it! I'm saved!" only to have the building collapse on top of him. What was he saved from? Apparently, he was saved from having to go to work the next day, but I don't think that's what he meant.