Orthodox Jews in the Modern State of Israel Disagree on the definition of "Jewish"

[BABerean2]

What is the definition of being "Jewish", in the modern State of Israel?

Recently the majority of those immigrating to Israel are not defined as "Jewish", based on the rules of most of those in Orthodox Judaism.

Much of this confusion comes from the fact that most Orthodox Jews require the mother to be "Jewish", while Russian Jews require the father to be "Jewish".


See the link below.
Rabbi: Not Converting New Immigrants is Creating Amalek In Our Midst

Can the Dispensationalists on this forum explain who is "Jewish", by their standard?

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[Douggg]

What is the definition of being "Jewish", in the modern State of Israel?

Recently the majority of those immigrating to Israel are not defined as "Jewish", based on the rules of most of those in Orthodox Judaism.

Much of this confusion comes from the fact that most Orthodox Jews require the mother to be "Jewish", while Russian Jews require the father to be "Jewish".


See the link below.
Rabbi: Not Converting New Immigrants is Creating Amalek In Our Midst

Can the Dispensationalists on this forum explain who is "Jewish", by their standard?

.

"Jewish" is the wrong word, imo, being used in that article. Jew is the word that they should be using. Orthodox Jews require the mother to be a Jew, for the person to be consider a Jew.

Being "Jewish" refers to traits customary to Jews, like eating kosher food. Or wearing a kippah in their synagogues.

 

[BABerean2]

Orthodox Jews require the mother to be a Jew, for the person to be consider a Jew.

How does that compare to what we find in the Bible?

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[Douggg]

How does that compare to what we find in the Bible?

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It compares to when Ezra returned to Israel, out from the Babylonian captivity, he discovered that many of the care takers Jews had married "strange wives", i.e. wives from other peoples.

This was a huge offense to Ezra because earlier the many "strange wives" Solomon took lead to the false gods to be worshiped through Israel and images setup - which caused God judge Israel and Judah.

So after scolding the caretaker Jews, they agreed to separate themselves from the wives and the children they had by them. So those children were not considered Jews, because their mothers were not Jew, but from other peoples.

Ezra 10:
3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.


10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.

11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.

12 Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do.

They agreed, but said it will take some time to accomplish it.

__________________________________________________________________

This is when I think the "to be a Jew, a person's mother has to be a Jew" - begins, that orthodox Jews hold to.

There are some other passages back in the Exodus when God told the children of Israel not to marry outside of themselves. It was okay to marry from a different tribe (of the twelve tribes), but not okay to marry say a Hittite.

 

[Douggg]

What is the definition of being "Jewish", in the modern State of Israel?

Recently the majority of those immigrating to Israel are not defined as "Jewish", based on the rules of most of those in Orthodox Judaism.

Much of this confusion comes from the fact that most Orthodox Jews require the mother to be "Jewish", while Russian Jews require the father to be "Jewish".


See the link below.
Rabbi: Not Converting New Immigrants is Creating Amalek In Our Midst

Can the Dispensationalists on this forum explain who is "Jewish", by their standard?

.

Bab2, okay in last hour, I went over to the Jew's yuku site at MessiahTruth, and asked them to explain the difference between Jew and Jewish - citing that article by link. Their religion over there is Judaism.

I got a pretty quick response. As follows. (I inserted religious in blue because that is what I think they meant). Last paragraph sums it up, imo.

_________________________________________________________________

"The article you linked to actually explains that the issue is that many making aliyah (moving to Israel) are not Jewish by halacha (Jewish religious law).

In other words: they are not Jews.

To be a Jew a person must be born from a Jewish mother, or convert halachally (according to Jewish religious law).

The State of Israel has a law (Hebrew: חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת‬, ḥok ha-shvūt) which gives a person with one Jewish grandparent or a person married to a Jew the right to come and live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship.

This does not make that person a Jew or Jewish.

To look at this differently: there are also people born as Jews who are not raised religiously. We often say "they are Jews, but not Jewish" -- meaning that although they are obligated to observe Jewish religious law by birth, they do not do so. Make sense? "

 

[BABerean2]

Make sense?

Does it make sense based on the Bible?

Do we find in the Old Testament that a person is considered to be "Jewish" by their mother, or their father?

Are you telling me that a person with a "Jewish" father and a Gentile mother, as in the case of Ruth, is not "Jewish"?

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[Douggg]

Does it make sense based on the Bible?

Do we find in the Old Testament that a person is considered to be "Jewish" by their mother, or their father?

Are you telling me that a person with a "Jewish" father and a Gentile mother, as in the case of Ruth, is not "Jewish"?

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Ruth was a moabite. What I am reading at wikepedia is some rabbinic literature indicates (paraphrased) that she converted to Judaism, and thus was Jew.

Jesus was a Jew because his mother Mary was a Jew.

 

[jgr]

It compares to when Ezra returned to Israel, out from the Babylonian captivity, he discovered that many of the care takers Jews had married "strange wives", i.e. wives from other peoples.

This was a huge offense to Ezra because earlier the many "strange wives" Solomon took lead to the false gods to be worshiped through Israel and images setup - which caused God judge Israel and Judah.

So after scolding the caretaker Jews, they agreed to separate themselves from the wives and the children they had by them. So those children were not considered Jews, because their mothers were not Jew, but from other peoples.

Ezra 10:
3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.


10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.

11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.

12 Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do.

They agreed, but said it will take some time to accomplish it.

__________________________________________________________________

This is when I think the "to be a Jew, a person's mother has to be a Jew" - begins, that orthodox Jews hold to.

There are some other passages back in the Exodus when God told the children of Israel not to marry outside of themselves. It was okay to marry from a different tribe (of the twelve tribes), but not okay to marry say a Hittite.

"Strange wives" and their children were “put away” (Ezra 10:2-3) because Israel was being idolatrized as a consequence of disobeying God's intermarriage prohibition in Deuteronomy 7:3-4.

It had nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[Douggg]

"Strange wives" and their children were “put away” (Ezra 10:2-3) because Israel was being idolatrized as a consequence of disobeying God's intermarriage prohibition in Deuteronomy 7:3-4.

It had nothing to do with ethnicity.

The caretaker men, Jews, were guilty of taking wives who were not of the twelve tribes of Israel. Intermarriage with people outside of the 12 tribes. So it has everything to with ethnicity.

 

[usexpat97]

Ruth was a moabite. What I am reading at wikepedia is some rabbinic literature indicates (paraphrased) that she converted to Judaism, and thus was Jew.

Ah! So it really is by faith that we are saved.

 

[BABerean2]

So it has everything to with ethnicity.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

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[jgr]

The caretaker men, Jews, were guilty of taking wives who were not of the twelve tribes of Israel. Intermarriage with people outside of the 12 tribes. So it has everything to with ethnicity.

Ezra 10
2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.

What was the command associated with the trespass, and the reason that the "strange wives" and their children were "put away"?

Deuteronomy 7
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Israel was being idolatrized.

Nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[Douggg]

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

.

Why are you citing those verses? Jesus was Jew because his mother Mary was a Jew. Not because his Father was a Jew.

Jesus was descended from David and Abraham, through Mary.

 

[Douggg]

Ezra 10
2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.

What was the command associated with the trespass, and the reason that the "strange wives" and their children were "put away"?

Deuteronomy 7
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Israel was being idolatrized.

Nothing to do with ethnicity.

Israel had gotten into idol worship because of the many wives Solomon had taken who were from outside of the 12 tribes. Called strange wives. From other peoples.

Those strange wives brought their idols with them and Solomon was tolerant of it, and idol worship crept into Israel.

I don't even know why you arguing that the beginning of idolatry that led to the captivities had nothing to with ethnicity. It had everything to do with the ethnicity of some of Solomon wives. The culture of the peoples the strange wives came from was one of idol worship.
______________________________________________________________
During the Babylonian captivity, most of the Jews were taken to Babylon. In their absence, other people had infiltrated the land or were left there from Solomon's time, which the caretaker Jews married women from those people.

2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.

 

[BABerean2]

Why are you citing those verses? Jesus was Jew because his mother Mary was a Jew. Not because his Father was a Jew.

Jesus was descended from David and Abraham, through Mary.

His Father made Mary, and David, and Abraham, and every Jew that ever lived.

Jesus was a Jew, because His Father planned it to be that way before He created the universe.

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[Douggg]

His Father made Mary, and David, and Abraham, and every Jew that ever lived.

Correction, the Son created everything including Mary, David, and Abraham, and every Jew that ever lived.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Bab2, prior to creation, God came forth from Himself... making Himself perceptible to them which He would create. God coming forth from Himself - is the Son. The Son created everything. And is called the Lord of Heaven.

The Lord of Heaven entered this world, to also become a man, adding to His being God, and born into this world with the name Jesus, by the seed of the woman, his mother Mary, a Jew.

Jesus was a Jew, because His Father planned it to be that way before He created the universe.

Jesus was a Jew because it was planned that way. And fullfilled by Jesus being born of Mary a Jew, but not by a Jewish man, because the savior would be from the seed of the woman.

 

[BABerean2]

Correction, the Son created everything including Mary, David, and Abraham, and every Jew that ever lived.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The Father and the Son are one, based on the words of Christ above.

Jesus is 100% God , and 100% man.

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[Douggg]

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The Father and the Son are one, based on the words of Christ above.

Jesus is 100% God , and 100% man.

.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

 

[Yekcidmij]

What is the definition of being "Jewish", in the modern State of Israel?

Recently the majority of those immigrating to Israel are not defined as "Jewish", based on the rules of most of those in Orthodox Judaism.

Much of this confusion comes from the fact that most Orthodox Jews require the mother to be "Jewish", while Russian Jews require the father to be "Jewish".


See the link below.
Rabbi: Not Converting New Immigrants is Creating Amalek In Our Midst

Can the Dispensationalists on this forum explain who is "Jewish", by their standard?

.

And what about the Samaritans too...?

 

[BABerean2]

And what about the Samaritans too...?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (See Luke 3:16, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27.)

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