once saved always saved

[VOW]

To Louis:

Do you think a person can "choose" not to believe? People kid themselves every day, and many many people have actually sworn in court to tell the truth, and then lie through their teeth. Some folks have even perfected the art of repeating a false statement over and over so many times, they convince themselves its true.

From the little kid who looks at his mother, innocence filling his eyes as the chocolate makes a ring around his mouth while he says, "No, Mommy I didn't eat the cookie," to the belligerent teen who screams at her parents, "I hate you and wish I was dead!" to the man who conveniently "forgets" about his wife and kids while he's out of town at a convention...

Oh, yeah, people "choose" not to believe every single moment of every day!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"Do you think a person can "choose" not to believe? "

Yes, as I am going into youth ministry I have seen kids get pressured into saying, "hey I'm saved." and not really mean it. Its a product of several factors, such as parental and peer pressure. yes, people can choose not to beleive. I can confess with my lips all day long and it doesn't mean a thing. Is that what you are asking?

 

[VOW]

What about Didymus's daughter? I'm sure when the girl was 10 or 11, she certainly meant with all her heart that she accepted the sacrifice of Jesus as her personal redemption. I don't know what the young woman's story is today, but if she was pressured into becoming a Mormon (and those "missionaries" really put the screws to people to get them to be baptized!) she could be kidding herself that LDS is "just another Christian church," or she is going through the motions of doing her Mormon assignments because she wants to keep the fellowship of her congregation. Mormons are "browbeat" NOT to question their faith; to do so is to challenge the Authority of the church, and you are to avoid any one or anything that says something contrary to what the church believes. You are also taught that all other churches are apostasy, they are false, and that only Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are true.

Can this woman be kidding herself enough about following "the party line" of the LDS, and in doing so, DENY the conviction she had at 10 or 11 that Jesus is her Savior?

It's heartbreaking.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"I'm sure when the girl was 10 or 11, she certainly meant with all her heart that she accepted the sacrifice of Jesus as her personal redemption. "

AGain I refer you to peer pressure

"Can this woman be kidding herself enough about following "the party line" of the LDS, and in doing so, DENY the conviction she had at 10 or 11 that Jesus is her Savior?
"

Yes, unforturnatly yes. I think she might not have had that conviction in the first place by her actions. I dont know the girl so I can't say for sure but that is my inital though on the subject.

 

[VOW]

To Louis:

I think she might not have had that conviction in the first place by her actions.

From what I have read, from what I have heard, from what I have learned from others, the LDS church does an excellent marketing job. They sell the "family values" and "eternal families" to folks, and then compare the Book of Mormon to the Bible and say, "See, don't they sound alike?" The missionaries have been well-taught how to answer every question with a Mormon-favoring reply, and then the potential convert is pressured into joining the church, to be baptized immediately.

Too many times, once people have committed themselves to Mormonism, they feel there is no turning back. They are told to "place their questions on a shelf in the back of the mind" and not allow "Satan" to turn them away from the one, true church.

I have a very dear friend who used to be Mormon; I also have a cousin and his wife who have converted to Mormonism. My husband watched a co-worker be pulled into the LDS church.

I grieve for them all.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

Hey, didn't say that someone can't be tricked..that's why we are told to watch out for false teachers..but her staying there after learning about them...I guess I am assuming her father said something about them to her. Mormans do a great "marketing" job, but once there a good christian will see it for what it is.

 

[rwc109]

See Rev 7:8-10

This is where irreversible salvation STARTS, until this time we may or may not have sure hope of salvation through faith on love in Yeshua's promise and receive the spirit of truth...but we have also to be tried....to realise that we shall be saved is hardly irreverisble[although we might hope that it is]... many believe they are saved on false premises that are not faith in love [as we recognise in our hearts and minds through the new covenant] .....this hardly excludes finding love as the basis [rock] of Christ and so sure hope of eventual redemption at Christ's return or beyond.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Don't know where Didymus went.. but nyway.. easy enough: Mormans can be Christians.

 

[VOW]

To ZoneChaos:

Mormans can be Christians.

Sure. As long as they discredit the Book of Mormon's teaching on Jesus visiting the Western Hemisphere, they accept the concept of the Trinity (instead of three separate gods), and they completely deny the Mormon belief that men can earn their way to eventual Godhood in the Celestial Kingdom.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[SenseiPiccolo]

Your daughter will be in my prayers...
for Jesus will unveil her eyes...

 

[LouisBooth]

"See Rev 7:8-10 "

na...starts long before that ..romans 11:29..

 

[rwc109]

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

This is clearly referring to th redemption of all Israel [see the whole cahpter Ezekiel 37] which happens because God CHOSE His people and WILL redeem them
This we have the ELECT, the CHOSEN, 12,000 from each of 12 of the 14 tribes of Israel [not Dan or Epraim - see Rev 7:4-8]
who are REDEEMED irreversibly to immortal perfection AT CHJRIST'S RETURN.

Where do you disagree?

 

[Optimus_P]

Originally posted by Didymus
my daughter who joined the Mormans-yes we are back to them again-- professed Christ at 10 or 11. By her joining the Mormans does that mean that 1. She wasn t really saved. or 2. she has lost her salvation. I personally believe in once saved always saved.

From waht i have read. If you have accepted Christ as your savior, thats it; the seed was planted.

john 5:25
Truly, truly, I say to you, (5) an hour is coming and now is, when (6) the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who (7) hear will live.

teh question is @ 10 or 11 did she really confess and truly beleave in Christ?

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Louis! These discussions are always fun for me. And I think they are good for us. By forcing each other to "contend for the faith", we each become more grounded in the Word, more "hiding it in our hearts". In short, we polish each other. And because it's fun, it's fine if we don't always agree---our fellowship and love for each other grows too...

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Ben, he will literally say that to all that come before him, in my opinion. There is only 1 thing that gets you in. Faith in Christ.

The question is only, "from where comes FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION"? Those holding to "predestined-election" view men as helpless pawns, adrift in the flow of Divine direction. Thus, God calls certain individuals to salvation, and no others. Those He calls, WILL BE SAVED, irresistably unavoidably. But did you read the verses posted in this thread that seem to say, "GOD CALLS ALL MEN to salvation?" If God is absolute love and perfect, where is the possibility that He has chosen so many for eternal destruction?

That's it. Yes, I totally agree works will follow from faith, but in saying that I will say works are a post salvation thing. They do not save themselves.

We are in agreement. Works (our own efforts) have no part at all in our salvation. They ARE "post-salvation", consequence. But---"they do not save themselves"? No, they don't. Jesus has saved them from the Cross. Are there any conditions Jesus levies on that salvation that He has provided? Or more to the point, is "faith-unto-salvation" travelling in the direction from GOD-TO-MAN, or does it move from MAN-TOWARD-GOD? Please cite Scripture to answer...

I was stating my postion in the second part. Someone that is saved, is always saved. The gifts and call of God are irrevocable.

God is eternally faithful, "He cannot deny Himself". But---there is a great difference between "revokable" (directed GOD-TO-MAN), and "rejectable" (directed MAN-TO-GOD). What about 2Tim2:11-13? If we do not "endure", we will not reign with Him? If we are faithless (which is not possible if FAITH is INSTALLED-BY-GOD), (if we are faithless and do not remain saved), nevertheless HE remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

Umm..sorry nope. Once you are saved, you are always saved. God's grace doesn't rest on our choices. [/B]

But---we are not saved by grace. We are saved by grace through (OUR) faith. If "faith-unto-salvation" IS in the direction of "us-towards-God" ("Now, faith comes from hearing the Word..." Rm10:17), then God's grace is available for all who make the choice ("All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved").

What do you think of all the quotes given so far in support of the idea of "salvation being ABIDING IN HIM", and being "rejectable"? If God predestineds some for salvation, why does Peter warn us to "be diligent about our calling and election" (2:1:10)? If it IS "installed-by-God", we certainly wouldn't need diligence, would we? Or are the letters of Peter written to a different dispensation than the one in which we now live???

 

[Didymus]

Thanks everyone for your commets. I can only get here a couple hours a day once or twice a week ao don t be offended if I don t respond right away.
Yes I feel it was peer pressure. My daughter had a Morman roommate who was very kind.First they just went to social events but litlle by little my daughter was worn down to start attending the chuch services.Did these peers genuinely like her ? Yes I think they did. And as she was lonely and never has had too many friends I think she didn t want to loose them. I am hoping that someday soon she will see that not all Mormans are the kind people she has met so far.
Inetersting fact:when a Morman group gets too big it is split. That seems to me to be a way to control the smaller groups easier.

 

[ZoneChaos]

We must be diligent as a testament to the un-saved.

 

[Optimus_P]

john 5:25
Truly, truly, I say to you, (5) an hour is coming and now is, when (6) the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who (7) hear will live.

Altho part of the NT IMHO if you at once time in your life truly believed that Jesus Christ died once for all of mans sins in past/present/future even if you fall from faith you confessed your being to Christ. He has taken it upon Himself your deeds in life not from asking but as a gift to all mankind. To say He died for all your sins and then to take back the blood that was shed from His body is to say He lied. and He didnt die for your sins. If He lied then God lied. If God lied, we would be in a world of hurt.

Again this is my opinon of what i see in scripture. if it offends you i am sorry please let me know and we can continue to convers on the subject either publicly or privatly.

 

[Ben johnson]

Sure. As long as they discredit the Book of Mormon's teaching on Jesus visiting the Western Hemisphere, they accept the concept of the Trinity (instead of three separate gods), and they completely deny the Mormon belief that men can earn their way to eventual godhood in the Celestial Kingdom.

Heh heh heh...

What HE said...



PS: Ever read, "The Godmakers"? Interesting read.

I'm always amazed that an entire religion was founded by a 17-yr-old illiterate child. Who translated some golden tablets, that NO ONE ELSE ever saw (except "the witnesses", the THREE and the EIGHT; one was convicted of lying, one believed the sun was inhabitted, one regularly talked with the men in the Moon. ). The first "scribe" threw down his pen and destroyed the 1st couple of chapters ("This is GARBAGE!"); the angel "moroni" appeared and told JS to continue. His next "scribe" was more faithful and the text emerged. While it seems obvious that JS was very well backed, in the spiritual realm, I am convinced that the current highest elders and leaders do not "buy the religion", but instead enjoy the power...

Anyone ever heard of "glass-looking"? JS translated with the "urim" and "thumim" glass stones (or golden spectacles or whatever). You may be more familiar with the more common occultic term, "CRYSTAL-BALL-GAZING"...

 

[Ben johnson]

We must be diligent as a testament to the un-saved.

In context, Peter is addressing "abiding-in-salvation". In 2:1:9 it speaks of "those who have forgotten former purification from their sins". Do you know of another way to be "purified from former sins" but to be saved??? He lists qualities that accompany a saved person, and says: "In this way the EISODOS-GATE of Heaven will be provided to you". Written "mutually-exclusive", that Heaven will be provided in no other way. So, contextually, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of His calling and election; for as long as you practice these things you will not stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-GATE-entrance to the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be provided to you"---this really hasta mean "diligence-in-abiding-in-salvation"...

He has taken it upon Himself your deeds in life not from asking but as a gift to all mankind.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying. Do you believe that all mankind will be saved?

To say He died for all your sins and then to take back the blood that was shed from His body is to say He lied. and He didnt die for your sins. If He lied then God lied.

What is the promise that God made? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have eternal life". Does not Scripture say that "salvation is provided for all, and whoever believes will be saved? And whoever believes not, is condemned?" The promise is not to "save everyone", but to "provide everyone with the CHOICE of salvation". If we believe, then later disbelieve, it is not God who has lied.

Again this is my opinon of what I see in scripture. If it offends you I am sorry---please let me know and we can continue to converse on the subject either publicly or privately.

Scripture does not offend me. YOU do not offend me. It's all right if we disagree on things, I am only "contending for the faith", encouraging and admonishing my brethren toward the Word. If I am wrong, I seek correction. If my brothers are wrong on something I do understand, I offer correction. Behind it all is the fun of good fellowship, and mutual growth. That we may increase each other in Christ, and that they-of-the-world will see us, and will see Him IN us, and will say:

I WANT WHAT THEY HAVE!!!

 

[Optimus_P]

again i appoligize i really should be much more throul (oves spelling error) in my posts.

Yes i believe Jesus died for mankind. And those that believe in Him will be givein eternal life. (ovesly provide they have grace)