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once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Die Allerbeste, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    I wrote exactly what I meant to say.

    Some who have accepted Christ today, live and act as though the are of the world, they look and appear as the pigs in the pen; but this does not disannull Gods promises.

    In the end they will reign with him; because of HIS faithfullness, not theirs.

    1 Cor 3
    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    Notice the foundation is what a man builds upon.






    Richard
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hi, Richard. Can you help me to understand your view on salvation? I'm really having trouble understanding the statement of yours I just quoted. There are those who accept Christ, but live and act as though they are of the world, AND they live as pigs in the pen. How is this possible? What do you mean by, "accept Christ"? Accept Him how?

    If they "live and act as pigs", how are they saved?
     
  3. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
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    Christian


    Can you show Scripture to back up the idea that we have NO free will?

    There are plenty of people who believe that a person cannot lose their salvation but believe that Christ died for all men. That's not a Calvinist nor an Arminian stance. Heard of Joseph Molina? He was a Spanish priest who lived before John Calvon or Jacobus Arminius, and he came up with an idea of middle knowledge - where man does have free will and God is still sovereign. Very interesting stuff.

    No, I don't believe that people who accept Christ MUST persevere to the end. Those who are in Heaven did persevere. The ones who don't go to hell, seeing as though they crucified Christ afresh.

    Oh, I've got Biblical basis for my belief, sir - it's not a personal opinion, it's good theology.
     
  4. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    quote: "Well that might have been an interesting argument, if a person really could be something other than Calvinistic or Armenian."

    Here we go again, that labelling nonsense that a Christian is either this or that. What bull!
     
  5. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
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    ben,



    Yes, it is because they are ignorant of the written word, and led astray by those that would take away the free gift, God has given them.

    They do ignorantly live their life walking by sight rather than by faith.

    Richard
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Thanx for the reply.

    So, in Romans 8:5-9, where it says: "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; ...however, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." In your belief, there is a person who lives with his mind-set-on-the-flesh, but still has God's Spirit in Him. But is unable to live in the Spirit because of ignorance.

    Will that person be able to learn the things of God? Will "He who began a good work in them bring it to completion"?

    What is the difference between a "Christian" whose mind is set on the flesh, and a non-Christian whose mind is set on the flesh?

    Thanx again for your patience with me.
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "And 'tis but an extension of Jesus' own words, "You will KNOW them BY THEIR FRUITS. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit". When Jesus says "no good tree produces bad fruit", I BELIEVE IT! "

    I would also say we cannot judge those fruits throughly. That is clearly expressed by God in his word. some examples are Lord lord, get away from me I never knew you, true circumsions is of the heart, and how can a man know another man's spirit? These are several examples of God telling us we can never know for sure who is saved and who is not. My statement, I think, stands. :)
     
  8. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0
    Ben,

    First of all, in Hebrews 5, it is evident that "babes desire milk", here let me post the passage;

    Heb 5
    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat .
    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

    I will try to draw the principle out slowly, careful to cover what you ask.

    First thing we understand is, that this letter was written to all Christians, particularly to them who where of the nation of Israel.

    He refers to them as babes, not teachers, because they are unskilled in the use of the word of righteousness.

    Young chrisitians, (and I am refering to those who are babes in Christ) who have not "excercised their sense" to discern good from evil, are those that are immature spiritually, and are unable to clearly understand what the spirit is trying to teach them (you are a firm believer in "free will"), so you understand that these can be distracted or even deceived easily, because they are babes easy to overwhelm with things they do not understand.

    Just like a natural born baby must be taught, to speak, so that he may communicate with his father, (so this babe needs to learn to speak to his heavenly father in prayer and supplication), he must be taught to obey the Word of his father (which he dispised before, in the case of Gods child), he must be taught how to walk and behave himself so that he can please his father, and after this training he just naturaly lives his life pleasing his father, because he has been taught, from his youth, and he desires not to depart from this way, which he has learned, from his father.

    Paul admonishes all who know the Lord to "...not grieve the Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)

    In the next passage, Heb 6, is where he goes on to explain, that these who grieve the Spirit of God, CAN"T lose the position of Heir (which is the passage of which 40 some ought pages have been posted here on this thread is about), because it would be impossible to restore them gain to repentance.

    Nevertheless, these because, they're unable to grasp scripture,(which is the evidence that they are babes), have become like babes who need milk again, which is for them like; establishing the first principles of the word of GOD,

    In simpler words they are anemic, they are unable to discern good from evil, they are unable to please God, because they don't know how to, they have ceased from growing, they have become stunted in their growth and have no teeth to move unto solid food (the meat of the Word of God).

    They go about trying to ;

    "...establish again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

    "And this they would do, if God permitted it. Heb 6:1-3

    I trust that you can see this, how God puts up with all who are babes in Christ, even those who are not so infantile in the Lord.

    If he didn't put up with them and caused to lose (what they can't because of His own Promise sealed with an Oath) their eternal life, which he gave them freely, he would in affect be killing his own children.

    He has said "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."


    The Judge of all the earth shall do what is right;

    If God is long suffering and patient with the heathen, how much more patient is he with his children;

    His desire is that all his children come to maturity; some get there faster than others, some continue wndering in their wayward backsliden ways until God deals with them, or takes them home, so that his name is no more blasphemed among the heathen.

    Notice; thats why he gives apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers for the perfecting of his people;

    Eph 4
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    And in this verse above, this is the reason why they are likened to babes, because they have been deceived unawares by those that have crept into the church, to lead many astray.

    In these days its even easier to become a teacher, all you have to do is go to seminary, take a few classes, line yourself up with what positions suit you and get your degree, and you are in business.

    This is the reason there is much disagreement in what the word of God teaches, Christians are all at diferent age levels, the young ones listen to their favorite pastor or professor teacher or friend, and what he believes thats what they believe, very few study themselves to be approved by God, seeking knowledge from above;

    Listen we have a teacher that can teach us all we need to have to live a life pleasing to God.

    Most would rather go to colleges, cause they can get their degree,
    And, today, if you don't have a degree you are regarded ignorant and uneducated in the Word of Truth.

    As for, living in the flesh, it is evident that these babes are capable of living in the flesh just like the prodigal son who squandered his inheritance in the pleasures of sin, until he came to his senses. He was never disowned as a Son. This is a picture of Godfs faithfulness, and our own unfaithfulness.

    There are many verses showing that when a person comes to saving faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior of his life, he translated into Gods kingdon, he becomes a son, and joint heir with Christ, he is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, he no longer is under the law of sin and death, but under the law of the Spirit of Life, his faith is established as a Law unto itself, his name is written in heaven, he is called a saint, a Priest and a King by Gods word. All this and much more even while wandering and grieving the Spirit of Grace.

    In due time, this babe will come to his sense, and return to his Father, who has forgiven him and will serve him of his own free will, more fervently than those that never wandered away. I believe this to be the truth.

    All, because death has no more domion over these, The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law,
    Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    All God's children have and advocate;

    HE is faithful high priest who intercedes for ALL His day and night, at the right hand of the Father.

    God does not disown, his adopted children, he loves his disobedient children because of the great love he has for his obedient Son

    I trust this has clearified your questions..


    RICHARD
     
  9. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
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    Christian
    In the next passage, Heb 6, is where he goes on to explain, that these who grieve the Spirit of God, CAN"T lose the position of Heir (which is the passage of which 40 some ought pages have been posted here on this thread is about), because it would be impossible to restore them gain.
    [/quote]

    I've researched Hebrews 6:4-6 on both sides for about five years, ever since my time as a Calvinist, and have read many different and elaborate commentaries on the passage, including entire books devoted to the passage, and I have NEVER seen this interpreted that way. Could you elaborate, please?
     
  10. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0


    I've researched Hebrews 6:4-6 on both sides for about five years, ever since my time as a Calvinist, and have read many different and elaborate commentaries on the passage, including entire books devoted to the passage, and I have NEVER seen this interpreted that way. Could you elaborate, please?
    [/QUOTE]


    Scott,

    This isn't my first post on the thread, I haven't the time to re submit the scriptures, please be kind to sift them out, the thread is 44 pages long.

    Sorry, but I won't have time the next 2-3 days as I am going thuough a series of tests and exrays with doctors.


    Sincerely, RICHARD
     
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
    +0
    Christian
    Oh, I see, Richard - this interpretation is based upon your use of other Scriptures, and not an exposition of itself. I read works for each side that did exposition and exegesis.

    I hope and pray that everything goes well with your xrays and such - I've just prayed for you now (if you'll accept prayer from a heathen like myself! :) )
     
  12. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0

    Thanks for your prayers Scott, I appreciate your care.

    God Bless, RIXCHARD
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Thanx for the explanation, Richard. There's a question that occurs to me---if "baby Christians", remain babies forever, then perhaps this is one place where the "catch-22" is true---namely, maybe they were never saved in the first place. (Which is essentially the same as "they believed, but their roots were shallow, and they quickly withered and died".) I have been contending that salvation is "recieving Jesus", as Lord and Savior. In a word, fellowship. A new-Christian may not fully understand that, point made well in the verses you quoted.

    But, along with this "immature-state", is the promise, "I am confident that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion" of Php1. If salvation is: "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", then this very verse in Philippians is built on that person's submission to Christ. In other words, "He will bring to completion, IF we submit to His Lordship and grow in knowledge and discernment" (which I believe is Paul's prayer on Php1:9.)

    The entire question of "OSAS/OSNAS" in this case is completely irrelevant. It only matters, that we are IN CHRIST, and GROWING. Which is what I believe the writer in Heb6 is also striving to convey. "Let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance..." It seems that those-who-remain-babes-FOREVER, are NOT being led by the Spirit, are NOT "in Christ", are NOT "born again"---they are not saved. The theme behind all of my posts, is to contend for the nature of salvation. As I think it was you that said, "reading the whole Bible IN CONTEXT", the substance of the Gospel is clear. Salvation is "in Christ"; as you eloquently quoted one of my favorite passages, "to mature to manhood (or womanhood ;) ), no longer children, but to the measure and stature of the fulness of Christ!"

    I contend, that those who do NOT grow, are, by DEFINITION, rejecting Christ.

    One who rejects Christ cannot be saved...

    In Hebrews 6:4, see if you don't agree that he's talking about "baby Christians" (quote-unquote): They have PARTAKEN of the Holy Spirit, they KNEW the Gospel, but they are now walking in the flesh and unrepentant (the definition of babes?); they count on God's grace, His patience and kindness and forbearance, not realizing that the kindness of God is SUPPOSED to lead to repentance---but stubbornly not growing, sinning, and storing up WRATH for the day of judgment! (Rm2:4-6)

    Whether or not we agree on "OSAS" or "OSNAS", I very much hope that we do agree on "fellowship through Jesus", and especially on "walking in Him, surrendered to His Lordship".

    If we agree on that, then the "OSAS/OSNAS" debate becomes non-sequitur...

    (I'll also lift you in prayer---hope you're not going through anything major...)

    :)
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "I contend, that those who do NOT grow, are, by DEFINITION, rejecting Christ. "

    Umm...this section might not be talking about christians as evidenced by the closing statements of chapter 1. So there goes that argument ;)
     
  15. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0
    Ben,

    Here is another passage, which is interesting; do you believe these are unbelievers, especially in the lite of the fact the unsaved are aleady in bondage to SIN.

    2 Tim 2
    20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
    22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
    23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will .

    They recover themselves by obedience to the Word of God.

    2 Pet 2
    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:



    1 Cor 10
    13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful , who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


    Notice that it is Gods faithfulness that delivers the godly who experience temptations.

    Babes are not able, to deliver themselves, unless they are living in the lite as He is in the lite; that they can be taken captive this is clear from these verses.

    The unsaved are in bondage to sin, better yet they are held the prison cell of sin awaiting the judgemnent.

    Is it not a great truth that our God will accomplish the work he began in us, it is, he will bring everyone of his children to that place where He can mold the heart of the man, he has chosen and sanctified by the Spirit of Truth that this man will do of his pleasure.

    Not understanding these positions, shouldn't keep us from fellowship, Thank for your prayers.


    I will be having another disc removed this time from my neck , my third.

    Previously 2 in my lower back. And old injury when I worked as a Fireman.




    God Bless,



    RICHARD
     
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