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once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Die Allerbeste, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    In speaking of "respect for another's scholarship", please note that I carefully worded some questions in the last post, and you ignored the whole thing.

    "Predestinate: (theol.) To foreordain by Divine decree..."

    "Foreordain: To ordain beforehand..."

    "Ordain: To decree, establish, predestine..."

    "Predetermine: To determine or decide beforehand..."

    (Definitions by "Webster's New World Dictionary" Prentice Hall, 1979)

    All right, YOU please explain what difference you are drawing between the two...
    "ajmetamevlhta ga;r ta; carivsmata kai; hJ klh'siß tou' qeou"

    "Not-to-be-repented-of for [are] the gifts and the calling of-God".

    "ametameletoß"--- without repentance, without regret.

    Now, in the discussion of "OSNAS", we can demonstrate Scripturally that God calls all men. But only those who COME to Him are saved. "The gift of God is eternal life". Does God give eternal life to ALL MEN? No. Only to those who receive Him (Jn1:12).

    What of those who "receive Him NOT"? They are not saved. But they were CALLED, were they not? Yes they were. Was that call REVOKED by God? No. It was rejected by the unsaved.

    What of those who are saved, but later disbelieve? Is the "gift of salvation" or the "calling by God" revoked (repented-from), by God? NO. It's THEIR fault, not His.

    "The gifts and calling of God are irrevokable". But if the gifts and calling are REJECTABLE, they also remain IRREVOCABLE by Him. Rejectable by us, irrevokable by Him. Clear-as-mud???

    Romans 11:29 is completely non-sequitur (means zilch, nada, zip, nuthin', zero, etc.) to the argument of "predestinationism"...

    TAG---you're IT...

    :D

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Zone---you do not practice sinning. There are those who see themselves as "Carnal Christians", who DO practice sinning, counting on God's patience and tolerance. They gonna be su-prised...

    (Rm2:4-5, Hen10:26ff, 1Cor6:9ff)
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    YIPE! :eek: I am SO sorry!

    ...(of course she's a she... VOW---"Voice of Wisdom"... ...wisdom is always a she...)
    (Ben wonders if the egg on his face will ever come off...);)

    Are you KIDDING??? More from my book:

    An incomplete reading of 2Peter2 causes some to shout: "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! See??? They were FALSE PROPHETS AND TEACHERS!" But on closer inspection, we see that the "false ones" were those who "never ceased from sin" (verse 14). Do you understand that? "Never ceased from sin" can NEVER be "saved people". While those who "are again entangled in the in the defilements and overcome", are really "Those who have rightly escaped" (Greek: "Ontos Apofuego"---truly escaped!), who are ENTICED by the false ones!!! (verse18---the "false ones" ENTICE the truly-saved-ones!) This passage undeniably, indisputably, speaks of "saved Christians who fall from salvation and again are caught up in their previous defilements. Just as the dog returns to its vomit, and the washed sow returns to its mire".

    What about John 15:1-11? Jesus clearly says, "Abide in Me, and I in you. He who abides in Me bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is cast off as a dried branch and burned in the fire!" Can you justify what Jesus said in a "you-can't-lose-salvation" theology? Or does it harmonize perfectly with the "fellowship-Jesus-as-LORD" outlook?

    The "abiding in Him for salvation" seems to be what John is admonishing in 1John3, and Jude in verse 21.

    Are there any more verses? What if I gave you a whole bunch of verses expressing concern over specific people losing salvation?

    Jesus worried that Peter would lose his salvation: "Simon, Simon, behold satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." Luke 22:31-32

    Paul worried about HIMSELF losing salvation: "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. 1Corinthians 9:27

    John worried about US losing salvation: "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we (you) have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. But he who abides in the teaching, has both the Father and the Son." (1John8&9) Can you explain to me how someone who "has not God" is saved? Is not this passage EXACTLY what Jesus was saying in John 15:6?

    James worried about US losing salvation: "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins". (James 5:19-20) Soul is "Yuce" (transliterated "Psuche"), which means either mind and/or spirit (as distinguished from "Pneuma"-ghost in Jms2:26), but was also used by James's contemporary John in Rev20:4 to mean "spirit"; "death" here is "thanatos", (as distinguished from "nekros", physical-death in 2:26,) which has the contextual meaning of "physical-death-with-expectation-of-eternity-in-Hell".

    Paul worried about US losing salvation: "But if some of the natural branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, ...do not be arrogant toward the branches; ...they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you! Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness, OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF! And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again..." (If Paul was talking of Israel-as-a-PEOPLE, why does he use "some of the branches", plural? More sound to say he used "branches" to mean "individuals") Romans 11:17-23

    Paul again in 1Timothy 4:1-6: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience... in pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following."

    Paul again in Galatians 5:1-4 "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject to a yoke of slavery. I say to you that if you receive circumcision (submit yourselves to laws for redemption), Christ will be of no benefit to you. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE". Think about this for a moment---to be "severed from Christ", one must first BELONG to Him. So that if one does not "stand firm in Jesus' gospel", but embraces another pursuit of redemption by law, he is severed from Christ, and falls from grace. Falls from grace? How can this mean anything EXCEPT "becoming unsaved"???

    Paul, (or whoever wrote Hebrews), begins the book in a discussion of God and Jesus (who is called God in verse 8), and angels who are ministering spirits sent to serve believers. So, "For this reason we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? Take care, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." (Hebrews 2:1&3, 3:12-14).

    [FOOTNOTE: Compare Hebrews 3:15-19 with Deuteronomy 30:15-20; "THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE!"]

    The thought continues with the last verses of chapter 3, comparing those who stop believing in Jesus with the Israelites lead by Moses, whose hearts were hardened and they became disobedient. In chapter 4: "Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us just as they also (Moses' people), but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, 'As I swore in My wrath they shall not enter My rest.' …Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience."

    Hebrews clearly speaks of the danger of "having your hearts hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" to "falling away from the living God". It compares "modern" believers who fall away from Jesus to be identical to those of Moses who disbelieved, stating that neither "will enter My rest". But perhaps the strongest testimony of loss-of-salvation in Hebrews is in chapter 6, verse 4 and following: "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened, and tasted of the Heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit (remember in 2Pet1:4 'Partakers of the Divine Nature' are SAVED PEOPLE?) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and THEN have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." The actual Greek does not use the word "impossible". The Greek word is "adunatos", which means "without power, unable". The "if-fall-away" is really "kai parapipto", which means, in the contextual verb tense, "WHILE they are falling away". Specifically, while they are in the state of falling and continuing to deny Jesus, they are also unrepentant and unsaved. Can they ever be restored? Yes. According to the Prodigal Son parable, in Luke 15:24 ("anazao" means "to live again". Alive, dead, alive again.). And according to Romans 11:23 ("and they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again."), and James 5:19-20 ("Brethren, if any of you wander from the truth, and another brings him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins.").

    Jesus said repentance is one thing was REQUIRED for salvation; in Heb6 we have some who unarguably were saved, but fall (because of contempt, born of their heart hardened by deceitful sin) and become unrepentant. Can this passage, or even the entire book of Hebrews, permit persistence of an "eternal salvation" theology? It cannot.
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "All right, YOU please explain what difference you are drawing between the two"

    Sure..predetermism means the process AND the outcome is determiened...predestination is the end is determined the process is not. BIG difference.

    "we can demonstrate Scripturally that God calls all men."

    Hmm..you sure about that huh? It is written..those I call I predestine..etc..

    "What of those who are saved, but later disbelieve? "

    This doesn't happen for the call of God is in other words, unrepentable of. Your following statement doesn't even address the verse. Once you get the call of God, you can't repent of it. PERIOD. Romans 11:29 is a great verse backing predestination.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "who are ENTICED by the false ones!!! "

    John 10:5 "But they [refering to the flock ie christians] will NEVER follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a strandger's voice." So there ya have it...christians can be decieved, but not permiently.

    "This passage undeniably, indisputably, speaks of "saved Christians who fall from salvation and again are caught up in their previous defilements. "

    Then they are not christians at all for as Paul wrote, "If I rebuld what I destroyed (speaking about following christ), I prove that I am a lawbreatker." Paul plainly tells us that you are a nonbliever if you fall into habital unrepentant sin such as described in the passage you refer to.

    "Jesus worried that Peter would lose his salvation: "

    hahahaha..this is a warning, not a worry. Try again. it was encouragement to peter..ment for edification.

    "What about John 15:1-11? "

    I am currently studying this and 1. you need to do some research in the greek and 2 do some research on engrafting methods before you understand this. It is not saying you can loose your salvation.

    "John worried about US losing salvation: "

    Nope that was not taken in context at all. Look at the middle of chapter 3. John says if you continue to sin (sin nature) you are not of God. John isn't worried about us loosing salvation at all! Good try though.

    "James worried about US losing salvation: "

    *sigh* that passage, as always, is taken out of context. you missed the illistration by James in chapters 1 and 2. He is writting people to say if you say you are a christian, act like it. That's it. He is not saying you can loose your salvation.

    In regards to Paul, no, he knew that the call of christ was not repentable of as he stated in romans 11:29. I think its very clear that paul thought we can't repent of belief in christ as stated by new creations, the old is GONE.

    What is talked about in hebrews is 1. a hypothetical situation showing how we should endure. It is NOT saying we can fall away. 2. I think that, as John calvin did, it is talking about those that never really had true faith at all, but did things in God's name and confessed him as those he turned away and said, "I never knew you."

    I see nothing in any of the verses you showed me that say specifically as the verses I have shown you DO.
     
  5. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Fifty Reasons Why A Saved Person
    Can NEVER be Lost.


    1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15, 10:28, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 5:13, etc.; By definition eternal means never ending.
    Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

    2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believer’s behavior.

    3. IT IS GOD’S WILL! John 6:39; It is God’s will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.

    4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in heaven is reserved for the believer.

    5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.

    6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.

    7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break God’s seal.

    8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.

    9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.

    10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.

    11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13 The believer actually becomes God’s child and cannot be “unborn.”

    12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can “uncreate” him.

    13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.

    14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.

    15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.

    16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him.

    17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.

    18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.

    19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christ’s love.

    20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all God’s work. He bought it and provided it.

    21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believer’s salvation rests on God’s omnipotent ability to keep him.

    22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.

    23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.

    24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.

    25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.

    26. HE IS IN CHRIST’S HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviours hand.

    27. HE IS IN THE FATHER’S HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Father’s hand.

    28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.

    29. GOD’S MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by God’s mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).

    30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, he cannot go back on His word.

    31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17, 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.

    32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.

    33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in God’s sight.

    34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christian’s new birth was from incorruptible seed.

    35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.

    36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.

    37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saint’s destiny. He is freed from it.

    38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believer’s behalf.

    39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Phillipians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.

    40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.

    41. HIS LIFE IS CHRIST’S LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christ’s very own life, so how could it be lost?

    42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint everlasting life.

    43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him.

    44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions.

    45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christ’s perfect righteousness.

    46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christ’s body. “Bone of His bone....”

    47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; Christ began and will finish his salvation.

    48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRIST’S IMAGE! Romans 8:29; After salvation the believer is predestinated.

    49. CHRIST’S BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood.

    50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL SALVATION
     
  6. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR.

    With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!
    ". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hello, Louis! Thank you for your time and effort.

    According to this verse, Christians can never be deceived. But---this verse isn't intended to impart deep theological points, Jesus is only saying, "Those who know Me, are My sheep, and they will not follow anyone else". To extend this verse to mean "Christians can NEVER be deceived, or can NEVER remove themselves from My hand, or can NEVER wander and refuse to return", simply contradicts other passages like 1Tim4:1ff. We CAN wander, we CAN disbelieve....

    NOPE---you can't do that. In Peter's letter, 2:1:3-4, we have been "granted His divine power, His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust". Do you agree that the "escapers-of-the-world's-corruption-of-lust" are CHRISTIAN? Now, in chapter 2: "after having escaped the defilements of the world throught the EPIGNOSIS-CLEAR-AND-TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"---you contend that they were not CHRISTIANS? Nope---, they were very much Christians. You cannot simply bend the words to fit a theology. The "escapers" in ch1 were Christian, the "escapers" in ch2 were Christian. But they became "again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome". They were Christians, they became again entangled in the world's defilements. Did they fall from salvation? "Far better to have never KNOWN (epignosis) the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN it, to turn away from the holy commandment." Yes they fell from salvation. They were Christian, they became non-Christian. There is no brush talented enough to repaint that to mean anything but what it means.

    They were unrepaintent sinners...

    ;) :p

    "I have PRAYED that your FAITH MAY NOT FAIL"... but you say Jesus didn't really mean what He said? Hmmmm...

    OK, I await your explanation as to how "anyone who does not abide in Me is cut off ...and cast into the fire", really doesn't mean cut-off-and-cast-into-the-fire... :p

    OK, I hope you can help me to understand how 2Jn1:8-9 really means that you CANNOT "go too far and not abide in His teachings and loose salvation". In 1Jn3:6 it says "No one who abides in Him sins, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." Did John believe it was possible to "not-abide-in-Him"? Yes. In ch1, "If I say I have no sin I am a liar and the truth is not in me." And in 2Jn1:8-9, he very clearly states that it is possible to "not abide in Jesus' teachings, so as to NOT HAVE GOD". I would like to hear how John supported anything but the "salvation-is-abiding-in-HIM".

    Yes, he does say that in chapters 1 and 2. But in 5, he very specifically uses the word "Souls" (PSUCHE), same as John uses in Rev20:14. Then he uses "THANATOS", physical-death-with-implication-of-Hell. Contrast this with James 2:26, "spirit" is PNEUMAS, "death" is "NEKROS". James knew what he was writing, and it very clearly says "if anyone wanders from the truth, and is brought back, his SOUL is saved from HELL..."

    The old is not gone. It is only dead. As Paul details in Rom7, the war between the old and the new natures. The solution to that war is in chapter 8, "walking in the Spirit" (and the old nature is dead), vs "walking in the flesh" (and the old nature lives and sins). This perfectly harmonizes with John's writing in his first letter... We have quoted many verses from Paul, saying "IF you endure to the end", "IF you abide"---do you still believe Paul espoused NON-FORSAKABLE-SALVATION? Rom11:29 says GOD will not repent of our salvation, but it does not say WE cannot....

    Forgive me for an opinion, but it seems you are refusing to just
    read the words as they are written. James says, "BRETHREN, if any of YOU..." John says, "Watch YOURSELVES"... Paul says "If indeed YOU continue and NOT BE MOVED AWAY from the Hope..." And, "The Spirit has expressly said that SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH..." And, "IF WE ENDURE we will reign with Him---but if we DENY Him, He will deny us!" Hebrews warns, "We must be careful, lest we drift away. Do let anyone have an evil, unbelieving heart, hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, in falling away from the living God". Yet you say "THIS is only HYPOTHETICAL, none of them really MEAN what they say..."??? Do you really believe that? Then you also believe, "He who overcomes, I will clothe in white garments, and I will not BLOT his name from the Book of Life" (Rev3:5)---you believe THIS is only hypothetical also", 'cause He can't really blot your name from the Book...[/i] Right?

    How do you know which of the Bible is "hypothetical", and which is "exact"? Anything that does not agree with "OSAS" is hypothetical?

    I claim the "age-thing", Memory isn't what it used to be. Please remind me of the verses (beyond what we talked about here today) that clearly demonstrate "predestined-election"? Thanx-in-advance...

    :)
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    BUT---if the OUTCOME is predetermined, IE that certain ones will be saved regardless, then the process must also be determined too. Because the end is cast, the movement toward that end must also be cast, else it will not be toward that end...
    Yup, I'm sure. First, let's deal with your "it is written" passage. "For those whom He FOREKNEW, He also predestined... (Predestined for what???) ..to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among MANY BRETHREN. (see Eph4:13-15). AND whom He predestined (the FOREKNEW to be CHRISTLIKE), He also called. And whom He called, He justified; and justified, He glorified." Does this say that He predestined them to salvation? Certainly not! He only predestined the FOREKNOWN, to be CHRISTLIKE! Foreknown? Could that mean "THOSE WHO CHOSE TO BELIEVE"? Well, yuh...

    Let's look at some "God calls ALL" verses.

    "Know this, that in the last days mockers will come, following after their own lusts and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming? All continues just as from the beginning.' But do not let this fact escape you, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2Pet3:3-9

    In "Predestinationism", the contention is made that the 2Pet3 passage applies ONLY to "saved Christians", that God waits for them to come to repentance. This argument points to the word "beloved", in verses 1 and 8. So that God is "waiting ONY for His BELOVED to come to repentance". And yet, contextually throughout the New Testament, "beloved" refers to SAVED PEOPLE. Who are, by definition, REPENTANT. (See Luke 13:3) Therefore their argument falls on its face. The meaning can ONLY be, that "God waits for all (as large of a number as possible) to come to repentance, and BECOME beloved!" Furthermore, the word "perish" is clearly used, which means "Hell". God is waiting for as many as possible to come to repentance so that they may not perish in Hell. They may argue, "OH they were never really in DANGER of Hell, BECAUSE of God's waiting so that ALL of them would be saved!" But God's "beloved" are repentant and goaled for Heaven, and the rest He is waiting patiently to become repentant and beloved and Heaven-bound…

    Is there another passage that may help clarify the 2Peter one? Yes. Please turn to 1Timothy, chapter 2. "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers and petitions and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Now, when it says "all men, kings and all in authority", is it addressing saved people AS WELL AS unsaved people? Undeniably. The Greek for "All Men" here is "Pas Anthropos", clearly meaning "everyone-Human-Beings". Same Greek in 1Tim2:2, 4, 6, and 2Pet3:9. There is no way to interpret these passages to mean "God calls SOME but not ALL. Christ died for ALL! (2Cor5:15) And all (understanding that on the condition of accepting His sacrifice) have therefore died! Contextually, both Peter and Paul are saying ALL. Christ died for ALL! (2Cor5:14-15, where the "all died" of verse 14 carries the implied meaning of "all died if they accept His sacrifice"...) And all have therefore died! (Understanding that it is available to all if they accept His sacrifice---verse 19, "God reconciled the WORLD to Him", also on the condition that they accept Jesus as SAVIOR AND LORD...) God desires everyone to be saved, which He would NOT do if He predestined-elected.

    Still not convinced that Jesus died for all men? Please look at Romans 5:12-21, specifically verse 18. "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men". The first "ALL MEN" in the Greek is, "pas anthropos". Which means, "all-everyone, every-Human-Being". By Adam's sin, every Human Being was condemned. When the first fell, all fell. The second "ALL MEN", in the Greek, is "pas anthropos". Which means, "all-everyone, every-Human-Being". By Jesus Christ, every Human Being can be saved. If every single Human Being fell with Adam, then how can you twist this Scripture for the second "all men" to not mean the same "all men" as those-who-fell-with-Adam?
    Once we "get the call of God"? To salvation? We just read lotsa verses that say EVERYONE is called to salvation. Thus the "ignorance is no excuse" of Rom1:20. And we have dealt with the Rom11:29 verse, GOD will not repent of His call to us, but we certainly can refuse to listen. Why do you keep bringing this verse up again? It affirms God's faithfulness to us, it says nothing about our faithfulness to God...
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    AND NOW, from the coffee cafe' here in the Bright City, we bring you: "FIFTY REASONS WHY A SAVED PERSON CAN BE LOST:"

    1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. But---eternal life is not really received until the believer DIES. Until then, his living state, is SAVED. And salvation can be rejected. "We will be presented holy and blameless before Him, IF INDEED WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the Hope of the Gospel". "If we endure we shall reign with Him. But if we deny Him, then He will deny us (and we shall not reign)...

    2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! But our grasp of that "everlasting life" is changeable. "The inheritance is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for us, we-who-are-protected by the power of God through faith (OUR faith, not HIS faith...) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. It is everlasting regardless of the believer's behavior? Jesus never said that. Neither did Paul. Paul says, "Do not be deceived, these (list) will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!! And as such WERE some of you..." AND, "If I continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for my sins, but a terrifying certainty of judgment and the fury of fire which will condemn the adversaries...."

    3.John 6:39 says "Jesus will lose none of whom God has given Him". Who are "those given to Jesus"? They are those who chose to believe. While Eph4:4 says "we were chosen before the foundation of the world", and Jn15:16 says "you did not choose Me but I chose you"---nevertheless, Matt22:2-14 very clearly shows that ALL were called, but only those who ACCEPTED (and clothed themselves with His righteousness), became the chosen! "For MANY are CALLED, but FEW are CHOSEN" (Besides, the same chapter of Jn says "anyone who does not abide is cut off and cast into the fire....")

    4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in heaven is reserved for the believer. And "he who endures to the end will be saved!" But if we do not endure? The inheritance will continue without us... :(

    5. INHERITANCE IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible. Alas, salvation and eternal life are vastly different things. The latter is incorruptible, but our grasp of it is very forsakable...

    6. INHERITANCE CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled. But alas, if we "are hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, to falling away from the living God", that inheritance will continue without us...

    7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." Our seal was conditional upon our belief. If we cease to believe, that seal is broken. There is not one verse that says the seal cannot be broken.

    8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". For/unto is a promise, not a time (until). If we DO "grieve the Holy Spirit", will the seal remain? No.

    9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, THAT He MAY be with you forever. That is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not know Him; but you now Him because He abides with you, and will be in you". "And if any man does not abide in Me he is cut off and burned as a dried branch" Jn15:6...

    10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever. "The Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His godly ones; they are preserved forever; but the children of the wicked will be cut off". Encouragement to "abide in Him and be godly", rather than to be wicked, isn't it???

    11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13 The believer actually becomes God's child, by belief. We are saved according to His will, by our own belief. If we disbelieve, we are rejecting His will-of-salvation, His plan-in-Jesus-by-the-Cross...

    12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature. "Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old have passed away, behold all has become new." Very much encourages us to "abide in Christ", doesn't it??? "You, beloved, KEEP yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life..." Jd21

    13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Savior. "For by grace (God's) have you been saved through faith (yours), and that (free-gift-of-grace) is not of yourselves it is the gift of God; (free-gift-of-grace) is not as a result of works lest anyone boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (by our salvation and abiding in Him, by our surrender to His Lordship) for good works, which God has prepared beforehand that we (who have received Him) might walk in them..."

    14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons. "The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed and will bring me safely to His Heavenly kingdom..." IF I "endure to the end". "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified..." 1Cor9:27 BTW, "God is no respecter of persons" is from: "For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong he has done, for God is no respecter of persons" Col3:25. God is very much a "respecter of persons" in regards to salvation (conditional upon our belief), in regards to gifts (all do NOT prophesy, DO they!), etc...

    15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! THROUGH FAITH! OUR FAITH! 1 Peter 1:5, Rom10:17---"Now, FAITH comes from HEARING". Faith-unto-salvation is not a unilateral gift from God...

    16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him. Jesus cares that we "abide in Him", shows concern that we may fall away...

    17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works. But it can be lost by unbelief...

    18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer. And it is faithlessness that causes him to fall...

    19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christ's love. And yet, He showed His love for us, in that while we were YET SINNERS, He died for us. Rm5:8 If we disbelieve and perish, He will not stop loving us...

    20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9 Salvation is all God's work. He bought it and provided it. And the provision is that "all who believe will not perish". And all who disbelieve, are condemned already...

    21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believer's salvation rests on God's omnipotent ability to keep him. (And Jd24) He is able to. Does He do it without our permission? No. Inasmuch as He rescues us from temptation by providing us with a choice (1Cor10:13), "abiding in Him to salvation" is also a choice...

    22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation. "Truly I say to you, he who hears My word AND BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." But he who disbelieves DOES come into judgment. The "promise" is founded upon our belief...

    23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish. As long as "you are My sheep". "If anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved" (and become My sheep) Jn10:9.

    24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven. "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me (every one who comes and believes) and he who comes I will not cast out." The condition is always our belief. Just as in the parable of Matt22, ALL were invited, but the FEW accepted, and ONE OF THEM refused to put on the Master's righteous clothing and was cast out. MANY are called but FEW are chosen. The CHOSEN are they who RECEIVE Him, AND clothe themselves with His righteousness...

    25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation. "All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose". Does this conflict with the idea that "salvation is by our own choosing, our own faith"? Certainly not! Those who are not His, do not love Him and are not called according to His purpose...
     
  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    26. HE IS IN CHRIST'S HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Savior's hand. And no ONE can snatch YOU out. "Snatch" is "Harpazo" (the exact word for "RAPTURE" in 1Thess4), which means "seize-or-remove-forcibly". Can you walk away willingly? Yes...

    27. HE IS IN THE FATHER'S HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Father's hand. And abides there by choice...

    28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one. Unless they stop being His sheep. Jn10:9 says "they are my sheep if they enter through Me". If they stop believing, they stop being His sheep...

    29. GOD'S MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by God's mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136). We are saved by His mercy. Through our faith. His mercy is eternal, our faith may not. Thus all the admonishments to "endure to the end"...

    30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, he cannot go back on His word. Eternal life has been promised long ago, and it is not a lie---he who believes and receives Jesus is saved. Promise fulfilled. He who believes not, or later disbelieves, perishes---also promised...

    31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17, 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone. All conditional upon our "abiding with Him and doing His will". If we "continue sinning willfully, He is no longer our sacrifice" (Heb10:26)...

    32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ. "And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. But everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; in Him there is no sin. No one who abide in Him sins, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1Jn3:3-6 Therefore, let us abide in Him...

    33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in God's sight. "Those whom He FOREKNEW" (8:29). The "CHOSEN", they who have "received Him and believed in Him". By their own faith....

    34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; "For you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable---that is, through the living and abiding Word of God." Our "incorruptible-ness", is of HIM. If the Word is not "abiding in us", then we are no longer incorruptible. 2Jn1:8-9

    35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns. IF we are "raised with Christ, seeking the things above, minds set on above, our lives hidden with Christ in God..."

    36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ. IF we are "raised with Christ, seeking the things above, minds set on above, our lives hidden with Christ in God..."

    37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saint's destiny. He is freed from it. We are no longer slaves to sin, but we are not apart from sin. Chapter 7 details how the old nature still exists and sometimes lives and wars with our new. Ch8 speaks of "walking in the Spirit" vs "walking in the flesh". The former is life (and the old nature is dead), the latter is death (the old nature lives). "Therefore do not let sin reign in your body that you should obey its lusts". Rm6:12 Admonishment for one who is still plagued by sin, not for one who is now sinless....

    38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believer's behalf. Very encouraging for us-who-are-abiding-in-Him-for-eternal-life...

    39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Philippians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it. The work was begun with our surrender and acceptance of His Lordship, and it will continue so. And if...

    40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins. Christ became our eternal redemption, entering in the Holy place, the perfect sacrifice for all who believe...

    41. HIS LIFE IS CHRIST'S LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christ's very own life, so how could it be lost? "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." Gal2:20 Our lives are Christ's, if we receive Him and surrender to His Lordship. If we cease to believe, then it is no longer Christ who lives in us...

    42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint everlasting life. The "Eternal Covenant" is predicated upon our belief. Our "receiving of Christ" (Jn1:12). If our belief ends, so does the covenant. It is eternal from God's perspective, rejectable from ours...

    43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him. "ABLE to keep us from STUMBLING"... Please read 1Cor10:13. He does not "keep us" without permission. Salvation is abiding in Him, by choice...

    44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions. But if there are no conditions, THEN EVERY MAN/WOMAN/CHILD WHO HAS EVER LIVED IS SAVED!!! Of COURSE there are conditions. "For if you confess Jesus as LORD (faith), and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead (grace), YOU WILL BE SAVED." The CONDITIONS are: believe, repent, be-born-again, be-Spirit-filled, walk-in-righteousness, grow, abide...

    45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christ's perfect righteousness. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Because we are sinful, we cannot, of ourselves, be righteous. When we chose Him, we accepted HIS clothing of righteousness. We wear HIS righteousness. Because of OUR belief...

    46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christ's body. "Bone of His bone...." And if we return to a gospel of works, "severed from Christ, we are fallen from grace" (Gal5:4)...

    47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; "Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author (LEADER) and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the Cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider Him who has endured such hostility for sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. ...It is for discipline that you endure; but if you are without discipline, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and knees that are feeble, make straight paths for your feet...that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who even afterwards when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected..." Heb12:2-17

    48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRIST'S IMAGE! Romans 8:29---Those whom He foreknew (who chose Him), He purposes to be Christlike. Eph4:13-16

    49. CHRIST'S BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood. "Through Him reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him I say, whether things on earth or things in Heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you blameless and holy and beyond reproach---IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE in faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT BE MOVED AWAY from the hope of the Gospel (JESUS!), that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under Heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister..." Col1:20-23 So His blood has made peace for us, IF WE CONTINUE AND ABIDE IN HIM! And if we ARE "moved away from the Hope of the Gospel", are we still saved? Does His blood still have power for us? NO!!!!!

    50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL LIFE. It says "life", not "salvation". Eternal life is our inheritance after we die. Our grasp of eternal life, while we live, is called "salvation". Eternal life is forever, imperishable and incorruptible. Salvation is rejectable. Not forsakable from God's position, but lose-able from ours...
     
  11. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,661
    Atheist
    Private
    Knowing that as little as just one sin seperates man from God, let's get down to the nuts and bolts of this thing.

    Would someone from the conditional salvation camp, please explain how this works.

    If I commit one sin, am I no longer saved unless/until I do something to get saved again? And, is this "saved/not saved/saved/not saved/saved..." process repeated throughout a Christian's life, ad infinitum?

    John
     
  12. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

    88
    +0
    Hmmm I listened to an audio archive on this by Pastor Greg Laurie -he seems to believe that a Christian CAN lose their salvation and choose to be eternally lost- he puts the license to sin view forward saying that we MUST remain obedient to Christ and keep our side of the commitment to be saved -if we do this we are saved and there is nothing to worry about- his view is likened to us drowning at sea and being rescued into a boat- we remain in the boat til we die, in the meantime we can choose at any time to ETERNALLY lose our salvation- once we lose it we CANNOT get it back.
    Funny I thought he believed in OSAS.
    But if that were the case at what point would someone be eternally lost- the bible doesn't say!
    You can go far enough away from God to fall away pretty far as far as I have heard from the testimonies of returned Christians.
    I still don't believe that it is possible- I trust in Jesus not to let me go- but then I would never speak a word of rejection against Jesus, should he cut me off- I believe in OSAS but wouldn't put my eternity on it and eternally curse
    and reject Christ and worship the devil etc as I have been tempted to do, -how would I know that he wouldn't let ME go in practice no matter what happens to other people? Maybe we can fall into perdition?
    I certainly got extremely strongly warned in
    my conscience and also was warned in several dreams when tempted to do those things that I would commit the eternal sin should I fall, which
    is why I went through absolute hell until recently for several months. As a result I thought I can't be truly saved, but no matter what I did to make sure I was truly saved, absolutely nothing in my life has changed, does that mean a saved person CAN be lost?! Greg Laurie thinks so and I would never risk falling away. I don't personally accept we can otherwise I couldn't cope because Satan won't cease tempting me and trying to force me to commit such a sin. But I'd hate to actually fall just in case.
    As Greg Laurie says if we don't reject Christ we have nothing to worry about, but what if Satan tries to FORCE you to? How can we get away with committing most sins but not this? Is the true Christian put in the Garden of Eden situation- 'you're fine and safe as long as you don't do this.......' or are we REALLY safe? If not then obviously we will find we have the same choice to reject our salvation FOR ALL ETERNITY not just in this life!
    So obviously the bible is absolutely clear or it contradicts itself that our good works and our faith have NOTHING to do with keeping our salvation, and we certainly cannot lose our salvation and then regain it again, but maybe we can still eternally reject Christ and thus eternally throw ourselves into hell and perdition?
    Frightening thought, but we don't know so there is no point in worrying over it if our desire IS to remain in Christ.
    But to anyone who thinks you have to add works to your salvation or lose your salvation if you sin, I know this I have studied this for myself and I know that is wrong. See the contradictions such theology puts in scripture for yourself!
    If we confess our sins (I certainly don't believe
    that we lose our salvation if we don't confess all
    our sins) and remain in Jesus he WILL forgive us and not let us go, but maybe we can go beyond the grace of God only by eternally rejecting Jesus and what he did upon the cross?
    It is nothing to do with enduring to the end- Jesus has already made sure you will do that, but maybe you can opt out of this, by choosing to eternally reject Jesus and commit the same sin that Satan and his angels, and Judas committed?
    I have asked Jesus about this and he gives me no assurance that he will keep me should I ever decide to do such a thing- I can backslide like I did before, but not eternally reject Jesus- I was only presented with the option of eternally rejecting Christ after I went too far in backsliding.
    It's obvious that there IS one sin that DOES go beyond the power of the cross, God cannot forgive or do anything for a person that commits it, so why would a Christian not be able to commit the same sin (just because you are a Christian doesn't mean that you can't murder)? It is a worrying thought and that is why I would never deliberately do it- it can only be deliberately and consciously committed I know that much.
    I am not worried, but I can't get any assurance on this one issue, unless I get it directly and personally from God himself. Jesus seems to have
    strongly witnessed to my heart today, despite what my church believe and what I have written,
    that a Christian CAN blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by consciously deliberately and willfully
    eternally rejecting what was done for them by Jesus' death upon the cross for all eternity. It also only requires a single act to commit it.
    So us Christians are obviously in the same situation as in the Garden of Eden and we can opt out of it by doing ONE single thing and will be able to commit this sin for all eternity- God has just really spoken to me it seems and it is frightening.
    Ask Jesus yourself about it in prayer, if he genuinely witnesses something different to YOUR heart tell me because I would like to know.
    If we don't do it, then we have nothing to worry about I guess- we are eternally secure.
     
  13. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,661
    Atheist
    Private
    The problem with the boat analogy is that, *theoreticaly*, every time we commit a sin, we are jumping out of the boat. We are either at one with God, (no sin), or we are seperated from God, (any sin).
     
  14. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

    88
    +0
    Well no it doesn't matter what you do, you stay in the boat -Jesus will never let you go, as long as you don't deliberately choose to put yourself beyond redemption.
    I don't accept that a true Christian can put themselves beyond redemption but I fear that it MIGHT be the case- I hope it isn't!
    I certainly DON'T accept that a single sin, or any sin except the unpardonable sin (IF a Christian CAN commit it) causes a person to lose their salvation. Hebrews 6 v4-6 makes it clear that if someone isn't saved and falls away they cannot come back- if Christians could lose their salvation this would also be true for them, otherwise this would be a contradiction with scripture.
    Btw where in the bible does it say ANYWHERE a person can lose their salvation AND get it back- and don't quote prodigal son, because he fell away and came back (contradiction with Hebrews 6 v4-6!) therefore he must have been his fathers child (SAVED) all through! If he wasn't saved, the parable would have been about him NEVER coming back.
     
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    I'm not sure what "conditional salvation camp" is, but since I hold to "OSNAS", I'll give it a shot.

    Sins do not condemn anyone to Hell. And lack-of-sins does not save anyone (for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). In Rev20:12 it says, "And the dead were judged from the books, according to their deeds". But do deeds either save or condemn? No, neither. It is the HEART, that is saved, or is condemned. And the deeds expose the state of the heart. Just as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit". Are we to fear if we commit one sin? While we live, we are susceptible to our week flesh---we stumble, walk-in-the-flesh, the old nature lives---and we sin. Do we fall from salvation? Our next action answers that question. Do we repent and ask forgiveness? Or do we continue PRACTICING the sin? The former action accompanies one-who-is-saved, the latter accompanies one-who-is-condemned.
    No it doesn't. While it is useful to read it in the Greek (and thus understand the present tense of the verbs, IE: "WHILE they ARE FALLING away"), nevertheless the meaning can be understood from the translation. "For it is impossible to restore to repentance..." What is impossible? To restore them to salvation? No. Impossible to restore them to REPENTANCE. Why? "SINCE they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him up to contempt". This harmonizes perfectly with the real Greek meaning, "For it is impossible to restore them to repentance WHILE THEY ARE FALLING AWAY, since they crucify to themselves Christ and hold Him up to contempt". The "fulcrum" of this passage is the word, "SINCE". It is not saying they cannot be saved again, it is saying they REFUSE repentance WHILE they are falling away, WHILE they are contemptuous of Jesus' sacrifice. "SINCE" means "BECAUSE". But, according to Rom11:23 and Lk15:24&32, they absolutely CAN be saved again.

    The devil cannot force anyone from salvation. He is crafty and cunning, he is happy to deceive us only a little at a time. It is like when we are on the "road-of-life", and we see a tiny branch off of the road. It's not really a fork, after all it runs right alongside of the road, nearly TOUCHING it! We walk further and further down the branch, never noticing that it shifts ever so slightly farther and farther away from the road. One day we suddenly draw up short, and the ROAD IS NOWHERE IN SIGHT! We are on this branch in the MIDDLE OF THE BRUSH!!! Exactly as Hebrews said, "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, in falling away from the living God".

    The issue is important to me for one reason---it cuts to the heart of, "what is salvation". Salvation is IN CHRIST. Abiding in Him, identically Born Again, identically Fellowshipping with Him, identically surrendered to His Lordship and filled with the Spirit.

    "Abide in Me, and (I will) abide in you. Anyone who does not abide in Me is cut off as a dried branch and cast into the fire." "Watch yourselves that you do not lose what you have accomplished. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ has not God. He who abides in the teachings has both the Father and the Son." "He who has the Son has the life. I write this that you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life."

    It's not very complicated, but it is terribly important...

    :)
     
  16. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,661
    Atheist
    Private
    So you're saying that, for example, if a Christian gets lustfull when he sees a gorgeous woman, but does not repent immediately, and continues to lust for a while, he has lost his salvation until he repents? And then when he repents, he will be saved again, until he sees his neighbor, which he has a long history of resentment and anger with, and is lost again until he repents of that sin, then he will be saved again, (until he sees his neighbor again, which reminds him of why he is so resentful of him.) Then, at work, a real hot co-worker brings up lustfull thoughts. Then he is lost again until he repents.

    And, what is considered practicing the sin? Once? Twice? More than ten? Is the length of time a factor? If so, how long? Does the slate need to be constantly cleaned to remain saved? What if one died suddenly, without a chance to repent since the last 'slate cleaning'? How many sins can go un-repented without eternal condemnation?

    Is the whole concept that God, who is not bound by time, only forgives past sins when we accept salvation? From that point forward, is it by our own power and works that we keep it?

    This is the first in a series of questions regarding the 'conditions' of salvation.

    John
     
  17. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13

    When we are saved we are in Him. Explain 2 Tim 2:13
     
  18. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Why do people doubt their salvation?

    Because they trust in feelings rather than the word of God.

    "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . ." Proverbs 28:26

    They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

    "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

    They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.

    "Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13
     
  19. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

    88
    +0
    Yes but Jesus said he gave all those who recieved him as their Lord and Saviour ETERNAL LIFE. It is NOT eternal and it is not a gift if the moment someone sins, it is taken back from them- we are no more saved than an unbeliever if salvation is taken back the moment we sin.
    Give me any evidence from scripture that a person loses their salvation the moment they sin and have to then try to get it back?!

    Let me ask everyone who believes what really to be honest is this unscriptural NONSENSE a question?

    Can you honestly say that you love Jesus with ALL YOUR HEART, SOUL MIND AND STRENGTH at this moment or have ever done so EVER in your life?!
    If what you believe is true, then you, I and everyone else reading this, is eternally condemned to hell- Jesus DIED IN VAIN, because none of us has or will ever be able to keep this commandment!
    Just because you can cut out some deliberate sins and God expects you too, God has to ask us that we love him as much as we can because he knows we cannot keep the first and greatest commandment- To LOVE The Lord with ALL YOUR HEART, SOUL, MIND AND STRENGTH! Who on this board can honestly say they have EVER achieved this?!
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hi, Ed. Please quote the passage in its entirity:
    "Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, decendant of David, according to my gospel, for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement, 'For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we shall deny Him, He also will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Remind them of these things and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. Avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it leads to further ungodliness, and they talk will spread like cancer. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, thus they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, 'The Lord knows who are His', and 'let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness'. ...

    Throughout the passage is free will. If we endure, we shall reign with Him. If we do not endure, we shall not reign with Him (but perish). If we are faithless (and perish), yet He is faithful, it's not His fault. Hymenaeus and Philetus have strayed from the truth, do not be like them. Abstain from youthful lusts and do not be wicked, but pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those of pure heart...

    There is no predestination in this verse. Not even, "The Lord knows who are His". The Lord knows who ABIDES and ENDURES and REMAINS; the entire passage presents CHOICE...
    What is repentance? Can you buy it in a store? Is it packaged by the ounce? How much repentance does it take to absolve one sin? Or does the sin itself have weight? What is the ratio of "repentance-to-sin" required?

    If I say to God, "Father, forgive me for the man I killed yesterday; and for the one I'm gonna kill tomorrow", what will be His answer to me? Is there repentance in my heart?

    "REPENTANCE" is a HEART-CHANGE. If I lust after a woman today, and repent and ask forgiveness, He will forgive me. But if I lust again tomorrow, then was my repentance of today, REAL?

    Is there forgiveness of sins, without true repentance? (Luke 13:3)

    It is not sins that condemn us. If it were, one and only one sin would be quite sufficient to send us to Hell. It is our HEARTS that are saved, or condemned. A saved-Christian-heart WILL sin (see 1Jn1) occasionally, but because that heart IS saved, HE will convict us---we repent and are forgiven. Our repentance is a constant attitude. Because of our fellowship. Our sin is from our weak flesh; if we remain submitted to our flesh, we are not saved. If we return to submission to Him we do not lose salvation.

    SALVATION IS FELLOWSHIP WITH/IN/THROUGH Jesus Christ.
    What husband has not awakened sometimes, rolled over and thought, "Whoah! WHO ARE YOU, and WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY WIFE?!?!" Love is not something we "feel". Love is a decision. Can I love God with all that I am? Yes. I can decide to. The same way that (if I was married) I can sometimes feel love towards a wife, sometimes not, but I will ALWAYS LOVE HER. Because I made the commitment, because I made the decision.

    Paul spends so much time admonishing us towards righteous behavior and living. We pursue God, both because of Him in us, and because of choice. The choice to have Him in us, to surrender our wills to His Lordship. He is our Creator, He holds our future, He will mold and shape our hearts. If we allow Him to...

    :)
     
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