• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Die Allerbeste, Dec 4, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    rwc "Where do you disagree?"

    pretty much with most of which you said. First, the idea of the passage cp 9-11 is dealing with has israel lost its salvation. So taking that short passage (Paul's summery) as talking about the perminence of salvation is quite in context. yes, this is refering to the redemption of Israel but Paul makes a point to COMPARE it to the church. Look at the passage.. Verse 28 they are you enemies in one area but not in another (different and like comparison) Then the next verse..How are they alike? Their call is just as perminent as yours. Verse 30 Just as..(this says he was including the church in the previous statement) and then compares the church's past with Israels current situation. there ya have it. God's call ir irrevocable. :)
     
  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Those holding to "predestined-election" view men as helpless pawns, adrift in the flow of Divine direction. "

    I think you have a flawed view or predesitnation...you're thinking of perdeterminsim..very different things.

    "Or more to the point, is "faith-unto-salvation" travelling in the direction from GOD-TO-MAN, or does it move from MAN-TOWARD-GOD? "

    I would say its all God. romans 3:3 for example (just one of many).

    "But---we are not saved by grace. "

    Umm..just by grace through faith..now where does that faith come from? God ;) See eps 2:8

    "If we believe, then later disbelieve, it is not God who has lied. "

    yeah it is. this means we loose our salvation and that is not biblilcally correct. God provides for our salvation. It is a done deal at the moment of converstion. Its irrevocable as romans 11:29 says it is. God's call can't be repented of. You simply can't loose your salvation, that's what the scripture says in My opinion. Peter's "warnings" are an encouragement to be strong and run the race, just as much as a person walking a tightrope is thinking..don't look down ...don't look down. Its about sanctification, not salvation. Don't be an ineffective christian.
     
  3. rwc109

    rwc109 Active Member

    902
    +5
    Engaged
    Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    -[the old covenant condemns Israel because they did not(could not!) keep it, but is the BASIS for Christ to bring in the new covnat for Israel as King of Israel]-
    Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    -[with the new covenant ,the Melchisedec priesthood will all be perfect, immortal, sons of God, (as Christ), pure, incorruptible - so there is no place for satan to apply leverage against the new order as he did against the old Levitical priesthood... thus the power of perfect truth is revealed and spreads via the new perfect priesthood to be extended beyond God and Christ at the return of Christ and translation of the firstfruits]-
    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    [the failure of Israel means that some old branches are 'broken off', but a remnant remain, and new branches are grafted in through belief in and on Yeshua,saviour,messiah, those that follow Christ but are not genetic Israel]-
    Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    -[we have no cause to boast as it was God who blinded Israel to make them examples of how we fail withoutHis help through Yeshua and so we hve not realised the plan]
    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    -[genetic Israel can be grafted back in through Christ ,just as we are]
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    [genetic Israel may well understand better even than we their God who chose them as His people and accepts outsiders ,strangers through Christ]
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    -[ genetic Israel was blinded, but it will come to an end]
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    -[God will act in grace and mecy because He WILL save those that He has CHOSEN, His people, named after Him, Israel]
    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    -[Israel's enmity for Yeshua caused his death, but through that we are saved, therefore they are enemies for our sakes, but God has made promises to the patriarchs and WILL KEEP THEM]-
    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    -[grace preceeds repentance,we need grace on grace to move back toward lovingness, we need grace to be perfected, thus God controls the process toward redemption by grace according to His will, not according our efforts...hence we need patience and to accept that God redeems whom He WILL, including His chosen people unconditionally by His mercy]
    Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    -[genetic Israels unbelief is the cause of Yeshua's death and our hope of salvation]-
    Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    -[our belief in Christ and on his promise is the basis for preaching to genetic Israel and their conversion to belief]-
    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    -[the death of Yeshua,messiah, was all part of the plan, so Israels unbelief was necessary]
    Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
     
  4. matt

    matt New Member

    53
    +0
    Hebrews 2:1 warns us against drifting. If we are permanently saved, why does the Hebrew writer warn us about drifting?

    Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away."
     
  5. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Hebrews 2:1 warns us against drifting. If we are permanently saved, why does the Hebrew writer warn us about drifting?

    Too find the answer you must read the statement this was a response to:

    1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

    Hebrews 2:1 wa a warning not to be fooled by spiits claimeing to be Jesus Chrsit., or claiming to come in the same pwer and autority as Jesus Christ. This was not a verse aimed at individuals, about salvation, but a verse aimed as the church as a whole abou thier steadfastness and their focus on Jesus Christ.
     
  6. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Sooner or later someone is going to have to dig in and study the Bible(not run to the Greek and Hebrew) to see why the Bible says in some places you can lose your salvation and some places says you can't.

    The Bible doesn't need re-written, it needs re-read.
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Didn't see anything that discounts the fact that God's call is irrevocable..christian and Israel alike. :)
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Sooner or later someone is going to have to dig in and study the Bible(not run to the Greek and Hebrew) "

    okay, ed I don't know if you made that statement or someone else did...but I just lost total respect for anything this person says at all. They have no idea 1. what the bible says and 2. how to study the bible.
     
  9. matt

    matt New Member

    53
    +0
    Even with your interpretation, what's the point of the warning if we are always saved? If we can never fall away, why is the Hebrew writer worried so much about us drifting that he addresses it here.

    Romans 14:21 talks about the "stumbling brethern". Why should be worry about the stumbling brethern, if he is permanently saved?
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "what's the point of the warning if we are always saved? "

    One think you also forget Paul might be talking in the CORPERATE sence, not the individual sense. IN romans 14:21 he is talking about those weak in faith and strong in faith. Why should we worry? It has to do with sancification bub....learn the difference ;)
     
  11. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I will say it again... he was noit referring to individuals losing thier salvation, but the church losing its focus on God.

    If the church lost it fpocus on God in favor os a false teacher or false spirit then their would be no new Chrsitians coming fro that church.

    The warning was not about losing salvation of drifting from salvation.. it was a warning not to drift from the focus of Christ.
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Actually, "predestinationism", "predeterminism", "tomato" "tomahto". PREDESTINED-ELECTION simply states that God has created some for salvation, these He will cause to be saved, irresistably. The rest He has created for eternal damnation, these He fully intends to perish in Hell no-matter-what. THUS, the "helpless pawns adrift in the flow of Divine direction".
    Allow me to "cut-and-paste" a bit of my book:

    Ephesians 2:8 This is simply a misunderstanding of what Paul says. What word does "THAT" modify? "Grace", or "faith"? If it is "faith", meaning, "faith-unto-salvation" is a unilateral gift from God, then there is an absolute contradiction with another of Paul's letters, specifically Romans 10:17. Which says, "Faith COMES BY HEARING". Which is it---does God give us faith-unto-salvation, or does faith-unto-salvation come by hearing (and hearing by the word of God)? Consider also the structure of the verse:

    ````````````````````that <subject> is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
    For by grace have you been saved through faith {

    .............................`<subject is> not as a result of works lest anyone boast

    "Through Faith" in the Greek is "Dia Pistis", which is a prepositional phrase. What is the subject of this sentence? Is it "grace" (God's free gift of salvation)? Or is it "faith"? The subject is clearly "grace", so that all three modifiers (the prepositional phrase "THROUGH FAITH" and the two other phrases) all point to the subject, "saving grace". It is nonsensical to contend that the word, "THAT", is "FAITH".

    Ephesians 2:8 is properly understood to have been written as: "For by grace are you saved through faith, and grace is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". Let's not forget 1Pet1:9, "Obtaining as the outcome of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls". Furthermore, the definition of "Faith", from the Greek (from Strong's Concordance), is: "Pistis--- a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God". Conviction? Is that installed by God in our hearts? Or is that our heart's response on recognizing the validity of the Gospel? The clear understanding here is the latterÂ…
    You cannot "lose" your salvation. It is absolutely irrevokable. Now that we agree on that, please show me a verse that says "salvation is not rejectable"???
    I'm glad you accept Peter's letters as valid, rather than dismissing them from "dispensationalism". But to contend they do not speak of "falling from salvation"? Please help me to understand how the "ontos-apofuego-truly-saved", who are "enticed-by-the-false-ones", who after "having-epignosis-right-and-true-knowledge-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR Jesus Christ", then "become entangled again in the defilements of the world and overcome"------please help me to see your understanding of how they either "did-not-really-forfeit-salvation", OR "were-never-saved-in-the-first-place" (careful, if you choose the latter, you hafta deal with 2:1:4 as well)...

    :)
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Actually, "predestinationism", "predeterminism", "tomato" "tomahto". "

    Okay, seeing this I lost some respect for you as a scholar...these two terms are far from being the same.

    "Now that we agree on that, please show me a verse that says "salvation is not rejectable"??? "

    Romans 11:29
     
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    THere is no verse that "discounts the fact God's call is irrevocable".

    THere are, however, many verses that say "salvation is rejectable" (or forfeitable). Thus, "be diligent to make certain of His calling and election". And "he who endures to the end shall be saved" (or "by your endurance will you gain your souls").

    OR "a bird in the hand is worth two in the..." no wait, THAT'S not in the Bible...
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "THere are, however, many verses that say "salvation is rejectable" (or forfeitable). "

    That passage very plainly says it is not. You are ASSUMING that when it says be diligent it means it can be lost. NOWHERE will you find anything that says your salvation can be lost BUT we do find it saying that your salvation can NOT be lost. That would make it biblical verses for OSAS 1 against--only speculation.
     
  16. matt

    matt New Member

    53
    +0
    Good point!! Paul stressed endurance many times in his writings. This verse, along with many others, makes it clear that you must continue to be faithful to Christ until the end.

    James said that faith without works is dead. Please explain to me how you can be justified by dead faith.
     
  17. matt

    matt New Member

    53
    +0
    What are your thoughts about the "stumbling brethern"?
     
  18. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    NOt sure what you mean here.. but if i were to apply that term to myself..

    I stumble all the time. I am not perfect. BUt thanks to God's grace, I am welcome unto Him.

    The things I do, the sins I commit, as a Christian are not habit.. I don't purposefully set out to sin and mock God, but at times, my self gets the better of me,,,,, and I stumble, if thats the word to use. I stumble in my walk with God, and after the holy Spirit has shown me what I did, I repent.
     
  19. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    You can't be justified by dead Faith. The Faith you have must be real in your relationship with God. Works of a Christian are what give meaning to your Faith.
     
  20. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married

    Psst, Ben... I'm a "she"


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...