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once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Die Allerbeste, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Hello, RPGGAL! It's not a question of judgment, it's simply a question of what the Bible SAYS. And, of course, the nature of our salvation...

    What _IS_ salvation?
     
  2. Candidus

    Candidus New Member

    25
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    Although I will admit that many reject this theory upon the basis that it does not seem logical, I see the primary reason for rejecting it is because it is not Biblical. One must assume Eternal Security before reading the passage, or, they must read Eternal Security into the passages that they use to “prove” it.

    One example: You said…
    I noticed that you emphasized the word “SEALED” as a case for your argument. May I underscore that the word "seal" in itself makes no allusion to a doctrine of unconditional security whatsoever? It does speak of security which cannot be denied, but nowhere does the word itself define the extent of that security. The word "seal" in itself does not give us the mode in which we are sealed, nor does the word itself give any indication whether the seal can be broken or not. You may charge that this is clarified by the clause "until the day of redemption," since I see that you have taken the liberty to change the term "unto” to read, "UNTIL.” It is not warranted to change the English “unto” to “until,” or to translate the Greek "eis" as "till," or "all the way to the day of redemption." It is plain to see by your statements that you believe the seal is guaranteed through to the day of His coming, but this being “sealed” “until” the day of redemption is not in your Bible (as far as I have seen in the translations available to me.) This perpetuated error stems from a misinterpretation of the ambiguous "unto" of the King James version and by not looking at the Greek. All major versions of the Scriptures since the KJV, and the unanimous consensus of the Greek scholarship of our day goes against this interpretation. Most translate this as "for the day of redemption." The idea of the passage being that we were sealed with a view to the day of redemption. The passage does NOT say that we are guaranteed this sealing all the way to the day of redemption, or are sure of our arrival at this designated end. The possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit, which is the "Seal", implies that this passage is meant as a warning and not as a passage of assurance as you and most Eternal Security proponents demand. This verse admits the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit, which implies that there is a real danger and that this seal can be broken.

    “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Eph. 4:30. The context follows, as it seems, to clarify what constitutes this “grieving” of the Holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------

    http://usaf.webhostme.com/
     
  3. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
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    The Truth of Hebrews 6:1-6

    What do you say, that for variety's sake, we just pretend for a moment that not one man who corrected one syllable of one word anywhere in the Authorized Text had anymore idea of what he was talking about than Jesse Jackson lecturing on the NRA. Let's pretend for a moment that all we have is TRUTH, and the author of the TRUTH to rely on, and by comparing spiritual things with spiritual (I Corinthians 2:13), we will arrive at the TRUTH, because the Guide into all truth (John 16:13) came to represent Him who was THE TRUTH! (John 17:17)

    Abandoning every qualified Greek exegete, every qualified Greek authority, all Greek texts, all Greek grammars and grammarians, all Greek lexicons, and all of the commentators without one exception, let us see WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES according to what it SAID!

    Here ya go!
    1. The reader is a Hebrew.
    2. The reader is a Hebrew who is saved.
    3. The reader is a Hebrew who is in danger of losing salvation if he doesn't endure to the end.
    4. Only by doing this can he become a partaker of Christ, even though he is already a partaker of the Holy Ghost.
    5. The reader is a Hebrew who has 'tasted' the powers of a world to come that is characterized by apostolic signs and wonders (Acts 1-7 shifted past the church age): see Matthew 17:10-13.
    6. The reader is a Hebrew who is in danger of drawing back into perdition as Jews who got into the promised land and apostasized after they got there (Judges 1,2,3) - all of the scholars forgot that application.
    7. The reader is a Hebrew who can lose salvation and be unable to get it back.
    8. When he does, a burning awaits him at the Second Advent for he will be judged as one of God's people (see Hebrews 10:26-33).
    9. No matter how many temporary spiritual applications you may make to the immediate reader of Hebrews - when it was written before 60 A.D. - you can not rest DOCTRINALLY one time in the passage till you run it up past the church age. This proves that at least 12 chapters of the epistle were written before Acts 7.

    Now, the references for those Biblical truths could be found in Hebrews 3,4,6,10, Matthew 24,25, Revelation 2,3,12,13,14,22, James 5, Jude, II Thessalonians 2. No one has to change ONE word in ONE verse in ANY chapter listed. No Greek text is necessary for an understanding of one statement given above. No Fundamentalist scholar needs to be called in to be consulted about his "qualified opinion" on One word in ONE passage listed. The scriptures are absolutely self-explanatory and as clear as a plate glass window with the pane knocked out!

    In the Tribulation, a Jew can lose salvation after he gets it for he is not in Christ's Body: Christ's Body has gone. There is one thing certain: in Daniel's Seventieth Week, you may get saved by faith but you won't be kept without WORKS (James 2:24). If you don't have the works, you will go to hell. That's where James came in: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only - James 2:24. In the Tribulation, a man has to resist the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:12) or he will be lost. He can take the mark or starve (Revelation 13:15-18), or, if they catch him, he will lose his head (Revelation 20:3). The only way you will survive the Tribulation is as an undercover agent helping Jews (see Matthew 25:40) or head for the bushes and mountains (see Job 24,30) and practice 'survival' till the end (see Matthew 24:13).
     
  4. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

    88
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    Yes but if you lose your salvation if you ever backslide, and are not living as perfectly in obedience to God as possible, then really you are NOT any more saved than someone who one moment before they die, becomes a true christian!
    You see this is the folly of this argument, according to this, salvation actually depends on our own works and only if we are living as perfectly as possible to God are we eligible to trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of all our sins and recieve this salvation!
    I believe that it is a condition of salvation that in return for that salvation you are WILLING to live a righteous and holy life in complete obedience to God, putting Jesus first as your Lord, all of this with the help of the Holy Spirit but to actually have to do this in practice, when it is so difficult otherwise you forfeit your salvation is a different matter.
    All Christians struggle and fall into sin- yes in some areas they may be living in perfect obedience to God but there is always one or two areas that remain persistant areas of weakness. I know that is the case with me!
    For instance Noah was righteous, but got drunk, Paul did everything he could to be obedient to God, but had to be given a thorn in his flesh to stop him becoming proud and conceited.
    We all commit deliberate sin, we just don't like to admit it perhaps?
    Therefore according to this argument we are all at risk of losing our salavtion or have forfeited it already unless we overcome all sin without exception!
    As long as you don't see salvation as a licence to sin and are willing to let the Holy Spirit make to like you Jesus in every area of your life without exception, I don't think we have to worry about our salvation- we have it if we show true repentance.
    Otherwise where do you draw the line/ How much sin constitutes a loss of salvation, if we ever backslide one little bit do we forfeit it? What if we grow spiritually and live more and more righteously
    throughout our lives then commit some sin we haven't done for years, then lose our life before we get a chance to repent?
    Do the rest of you say TOO BAD?!!!!!!!!
     
  5. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    IT only takes a second to repent., so I don't see of any instance where a person is unable to repent. Remember, "God doesn't wish for any to perish", therefore repentance is allowed to the very last second.
    BY reading this entire thread, it has opened my eyes to HOW someone arrives at believing false doctrine: They only believe the scriptures they choose, & ignore the scriptures which contradict their doctrine.
    If the Bible is your final authority, you have to believe every verse to be true, ONLY then can you see how they all truly fit together. Otherwise you are blinded to the truth.
    Believing in OSAS ignores the other verses which have already been quoted.
     
  6. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Many Christians differ in interpretation because they
    will not STUDY to "rightly divide the word of truth (II Tim 2:15)
    Consequently, they misplace Hebrews 3:6, 14; 6:1-5; 10:26-33; Rev 13:12; 12:17; 22:14, etc. into the Church Age, instead of the Tribulation.
     
  7. mooonriverrr

    mooonriverrr New Member

    6
    +0
    Dear brothers in Christ I thank you for your fellowship here. Suffer me a question if you will. It's written that we shouldnt adopt a false plan of salvation lest we would have believed in vain. I guess this begs the question, is there a plan of salvation that anyone is aware of that is easier to carry out than that of OSAS? Note that I didnt say that OSAS was easy but simply asked if there is an easier doctrine than this. Love to all and God bless you. :)
     
  8. Snor Snor

    Snor Snor Servant of Jesus Christ

    199
    +1
    Christian
    The Apostle John committed idolatry twice and was forgiven, as was told when he fell down and worshiped the angel in Revelation. God cannot stand idolatry, just like how He can't stand lying or cheating. But John was forgiven because he repented. I think this definitely shows that God can forgive any sins if we only repent, no matter how much we have done it as a Christian and no matter which sin. What John did is like bowing down to Buddah, but he had to have been sorry after the vision he had.
    Peter was also living in a sin for a very long time, being a hypocrite (As told in Acts). Being such a hypocrite he was, Paul went to him and went straight to his face in front of everyone. So he was forgiven after he turned away form what he did.

    How merciful God is.

    God bless :)
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    But there have been more quoted than just these.

    It seems to me (this is different than "I believe" ;) ), that if I have a pre-conceived theology, which is contradicted by specific Scriptures, then I will seek a "device" to discredit whatever Scriptures contradict my "emotionally-committed-position". I might weave a complicated system of "periods", or "dispensations", so that I can slice the Bible into these time-periods and therefore I am allowed to reject entire letters ("Why, they were written to a DIFFERENT dispensation, not OURS!").

    For the record, there is a situation where the issue of "OSAS" matters greatly, and there is a situation where the belief is irrelevant:

    1. For two believers who are walking in the Spirit, in fellowship with God through Jesus, and are discussing a third person's salvation, it does not matter.

    2. For a believer who is comfortable with his "back-sliding", rationalizing his (her) sin as "unimportant in the long-run", believing himself (herself) to be "SAVED-NO-MATTER-WHAT", it matters terribly...

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you believe in OSAS, and do not believe in DISPENSATIONISM, (so that you ACCEPT Peter's letters), please explain how 2Pet2 describes anything but a real Christian who forsakes salvation. 2:1:4 says the "escapers" are saved. 2:2:14 says the "false ones NEVER cease from sin", and the "false ones seek to entice the OTHERS who have ONTOS APOFUEGO TRULY ESCAPED" (2:2:18), so that after they have "APOFUEGO ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS CLEAR-AND-CORRECT (full) knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus CHrist, they become again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome..." (2:2:20) "Far better to have never KNOWN (EPIGNOSIS) the way of righteousness..." (2:2:21)
     
  10. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Where in the scriptures does it say the "easiest way to carry out salvation is osas"? Where does it say salvation is easy & doesn't it say"with fear & trembling''? YOU CANNOT HONESTLY DEBATE ANYTHING WHEN ALL THE VERSES ARE NOT CONSIDERED BY ALL DEBATERS. It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of believing every verse about the subject as true. Only then will they fit together. None of the scriptures are untrue. I do not have to ignore any verses to maintain my belief. If you have to ignore some verses that conflict with your doctrine, then you believe a false doctrine.
    What we are debating is this" Once saved always saved" is not ALWAYS the case. Some saved people no longer wish to follow God. STudy 'defilement". (the clean becoming unclean) & multitudes of other scripture already posted.
    stubboness is idolatry-1Sam.15:23
     
  11. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    How can you have joy with out assurance of Salvation?
    What a miserable way to go through life.

    Colossians 2
    2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
     
  12. mooonriverrr

    mooonriverrr New Member

    6
    +0
    Dear Debbie, It's difficult to decipher from your message whether your were responding to me or someone else. If you were responding to my message about a plan of salvation easier than OSAS then I urge you to read it again. I went out of my way not to imply that OSAS was easy but merely asked whether or not an easier doctrine exsisted or not. No matter how difficult the relevant or popular doctrines are there must be one thats easier than the others one would tend to think. Maybe a more pallitable question would be , what doctrine is les difficult than OSAS.
     
  13. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Oh I'm sorry moonriver, I thought you were saying something else. You are right in that just believing is easiest,osas is easiest. Nothing easier.
    We certainly don't want anyone to think he has to go to the trouble of being born again.
    Contrary to popular belief, those of us who have been born again have joy, peace, etc.
    Those who merely believe, must be admitting they have not submitted Their will to Christ's will. That's the difference between osas & being born again.
     
  14. mooonriverrr

    mooonriverrr New Member

    6
    +0
    Thank you for your reply Debbie. Again it seems that you feel a response is neccessary that defends or clarifies a position of OSAS. Again, let me pose the question. Which popular doctrine of salvation is less difficult than OSAS. Keep in mind that I'm not declaring to that OSAS is false. May God bles you and be with you dear sister in Christ.
    :)
     
  15. mooonriverrr

    mooonriverrr New Member

    6
    +0
    Dear Debbie, I urge you to make an extra effort not to use sarcasm in your letters as it really takes on a confrontational context when in written form, although unitentional. I want nothing more than to be friends and enjoy fellowship here. Thank you with love jerry
     
  16. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    sorry the thread is about osas. But the easiset salvation is just belief in Jesus. Secondly, just belief added with osas is super easy for life. I can think of nothing easier in Christianity.
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Well, I'm sad to say that true faith doesn't go away..do you think that it maybe was something having to do with peer pressure or someone "pushing" her into it. the only way you reject salvation is not to beleive. You cannot, according to the bible, believe and then stop believing. That's made very clear in God's word. Romans 11:29 is a great example of that.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "There is only one group of people that He could be talking to that is standing on the wrong side of the gate and that is belevers without works. "

    *sigh* no the ones that don't get in will have said to them, depart from me I NEVER KNEW YOU. You don't get into heaven based on works. That is UNBIBLICAL. Its once saved always saved.
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    This is true. It is not our works that save us. THIS is what separates us from the religions of the world, ALL OF WHICH say "you are saved/redeemed/favored-by-God(s)/nirvanah-ed/etc by DEEDS." And yet, we still have the problem of what Jesus said:"Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord! Lord!' shall inherit the kingdom of God, but those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER!" If "doing the will" does not equate to salvation, then what? Well, it perfectly harmonizes with what we said before. And what Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits".

    Christianity is very much like "being pregnant". You cannot be a little pregnant, or half-way-pregnant, or 9/10 pregnant---either you ARE, or you are NOT. He (she) who is Christian, WILL HAVE THE WORKS. What James said. What Jesus said. What Paul said. They understood. It's also what John meant in Rev20:13, "Each were judged according to their deeds"---it's not that evil deeds condemned them (for good deeds never save you and evil deeds never condemn you)---rather, it's that evil deeds revealed their HEARTS. And their hearts were saved, or condemned already...
    How in the world does this apply here? Someone on another post said that the "never knew" is applicable like an annullment, where it is as if the marriage had never happened.

    In any case, the "I never knew you" applies to a select group of people. This passage does not say that EVERYONE who perishes, are part of the "never-knew-group". It is very possible, if He DID mean that these truly were never saved, it is possible there were others who once were...
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Ben, he will literally say that to all that come before him, in my opinion. There is only 1 thing that gets you in. Faith in Christ. That's it. Yes, I totally agree works will follow from faith, but in saying that I will say works are a post salvation thing. They do not save themselves. I was stating my postion in the second part. Someone that is saved, is always saved. The gifts and call of God are irrevocable.

    "It is very possible, if He DID mean that these truly were never saved, it is possible there were others who once were..."

    Umm..sorry nope. Once you are saved, you are always saved. God's grace doesn't rest on our choices.
     
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