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once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Die Allerbeste, Dec 4, 2001.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "If you are a Christian, then you should always be conscious of the fact that YOU are not your body; you are INSIDE your body. "

    This is a false dualism you are creating and not found anywhere in historical christianity. It IS found, on the other hand, in gnostism.
    "Your body is no good, for it is still under the law of sin and death. "

    If you are a christian NO PART of you is under that law. You body dies because it is a consequence of the fall.

    First of all ed is all wet, its always been salvation by grace alone through faith. Never by our actions.

    "2Jn1:8-9 " This has to do with rewards. Look at the passage, it speaks directly to that. He is talking to christians and the rewards they will recieve in heaven. yes Christians will be rewarded differently but ALL have salvation. This is about rewards NOT loosing salvation.

    "James 5:19-20? " its a warning for those who become wrong in their teaching. That isn't to say they loose their salvation.

    "Col1:23" again it is a warning about becomeing a inefficent christian, not about loosing salvation.

    Peter 2:2:9-11 umm..nothing in here about loosing your salvation at all.

    Just read romans chapters 9-11 about loosing salvation, that's what they are all about. Did God go back on his promice of saving Israel because they rejected Christ. In 11:29 in part of the summation of the argument paul says that God's call is irrevocable.
     
  2. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    HOW I KNOW I'M GOING TO HEAVEN
    THE PROCLAMATION OF GOD'S WORD

    "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I Jn. 5:13)

    ". . . . I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12)

    THE POWER OF GOD'S PRESERVATION

    "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

    "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

    THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL SECURITY

    "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28)

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Jn. 3:16)

    THE POSSESSION GOD HAS GIVEN HIS SAINTS

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

    "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I Jn. 5:12)

    THE PERFECTION OF GOD'S SAINTS

    "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb. 10:14)

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Rom. 4:5-8)

    Have you ever heard the expression "Nobody's perfect?" That isn't true. In God's eyes, the SOULS of all His saints ARE perfect, because they have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation.

    Jesus shed His sinless blood to pay for my sins. He OFFERED Himself as a PAYMENT for my sin. He paid my sin debt because I couldn't. By receiving Him as my Savior, I am also receiving the fact that He has PAID for my sins and that I can now REST in His finished work, because my sins are GONE!
    My soul (not my flesh) has been made PERFECT through the completed Blood Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I KNOW I'm going to Heaven!

    What about you? Why not forsake your own self-righteousness right now and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior? Why live a life of uncertainty when you can KNOW your eternal destiny? Why not get it settled right now? Receive Christ today. Romans 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Why not call upon the Lord to save you right now? You've seen the promises of scripture. Are you willing to CLAIM those promises by receiving the Lord Jesus Christ today? Tomorrow may be too late.
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Before anyone scowls and reaches for the "reply" button, I would ask that you read this post carefully, in its entirity...

    Are we saved by works or not? The answer is, WE ARE SAVED BY WORKS. When the Bible records precise words of Jesus, I believe them. Jesus said, "Not everyone will inherit the kindom of God, but he who does the will of the Father". He who does the will? Does this mean, that he who does NOT the will of the Father, is not saved? Well, yes it does.

    Now we have glaring contradiction. For Paul writes, "For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that (God's free gift of grace) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, lest anyone boast."

    Which is it, then? Are we saved by works, or are we not saved by works?

    THe answer, is yes (as in, "yes we are, and yes we are not"...)

    Confused yet? :D

    The underlying question is the importance of the issue.

    WHAT IS SALVATION?

    This is the "meat" of the discussion.

    Jesus said, "You must be BORN AGAIN". Jn3:3 Paul writes, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and all has become new." 2Cor5:17 Then there is the ubiquitous Gal2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me..." 1Jn5:12 says, "He who HAS THE SON, has the life; he who has not the Son of God, has not the life. I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life." In all of the text, it is very clear that---salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus. Identically, "BORN AGAIN". Identically, "ABIDING IN CHRIST (and His teachings".

    Where do works fit in? Jesus said it Himself! "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit! So then, you will know them by their fruit! Do good works save us? Well, not directly; and it is certainly not because of anything WE will. If salvation is "IN CHRIST" (fellowship, abiding), and it is, then the works we do, are nothing but what HE does THROUGH US!!!

    "Therfore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is HE who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure!" It very clearly says that a "changed heart will DO the good works, because the changed heart has Jesus as LORD, Him doing the good works through our hands from inside our hearts!

    So we ARE saved by works. By His complete and sufficient WORK on the Cross, and our salvation as evidenced by the works He continues to do THROUGH us BECAUSE of our salvation! "For by grace are you saved through faith; for we are His workmanship, created to walk in good works which He has prepared beforehand THAT WE MIGHT WALK IN THEM!!! (Eph2:8-10

    James very much agrees with this. "What use is it if one says he has faith, but he has no works? That faith can NOT save him, CAN it! (Greek: ME DUNAMAI, is NOT able to...) If a brother or sister is in need, and he says 'Go be clothed warmed and fed', and yet does not give them their needs, what use is that? Even so, faith, if it PRODUCES no works, is DEAD (not SAVED!!!)

    Salvation is FELLOWSHIP/ABIDING-IN-CHRIST. Can a person ever STOP abiding in Christ? By Jesus' own words, yes. "I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you. Any one who does not abide in me is thown away as a dried branch, ...and thrown into the fire." Jn15:1-11 "WATCH yourselves, that you do not lose what we (you) have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward (Heaven); anyone who goes too far (lit-goes on ahead) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abvides in the teaching had both the Father and the Son." 2Jn1:8-9 "He who has the Son, has the life. He who has NOT the Son of God, has not the life!" 1Jn5:12

    (Ben winks and steps off the podium...)

    :D
     
  4. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Ben, very nice post. I see what you mean although you cannot say we are saved by works, because scripture says we are not. But I know what you MEAN, AND YOU ARE RIGHT in intent.
    ed, on the other hand, insults everyone who doesn't believe in "Once saved always saved " by accusing us of not being saved.
    (see post above & elsewhere at this site).
    What some folks fail to realize it that just because they BELIEVE & confess it with their mouth, does not mean they have Christ in their heart. AS Ben pointed out, it is easier to tell what is in someone's heart, by what comes out of them=their fruit. There are a few verses which state that the mouth speaks what is in the heart. If you show no love, forgiveness, etc, that is a better sign of no salvation to other christians. Turning our will to Christ's will, is what should be in our heart as ben explained. COnstantly accusing others of not being saved is not a sign of Christlikeness, nor does it indicate salvation.
     
  5. Didymus

    Didymus can t spell--can t type

    +8
    Protestant
    my daughter who joined the Mormans-yes we are back to them again-- professed Christ at 10 or 11. By her joining the Mormans does that mean that 1. She wasn t really saved. or 2. she has lost her salvation. I personally believe in once saved always saved.
     
  6. Snor Snor

    Snor Snor Servant of Jesus Christ

    199
    +1
    Christian
    I don't really believe in OSAS. Paul has so many "if's" in his epistles it astounds me. As "Gentle Ben" said (;)@Ben:p), they are VERY big if's. Now, if a Christian backslides and starts "having it" with others, and starts sinning again; if he does not repent truly and turn away from these sins, then I don't think he could be saved. Once he repents he'd be restored back to God and be saved.
    Christ Jesus has paid for all of our sins. If He forgave our past wicked sins, which may include fornication, blasphemy, drinking, cussing non-stop, rejection of Him while still in this life, etc., then if a Christian backslides and does these things again, but repents, I think he'd be forgiven. Why not? If God has forgiven the past life, then he'd forgive the sinful backslidden life, too:) But if he doesn't repent of the sins he slid into and doesn't even care, I don't think he's saved. Paul made a big list of people who won't enter the kingdom of God. If a Christian slides back into it without repentance, how can he be saved when he's doing things on the list with no repentance?:confused:

    Christians can backslide. They aren't perfect, and if they continue to act unperfect with no repentance then they aren't saved.

    Ben, I haven't read all the pages here, and don't know Scripture as well as you do. Would you mind posting the "if's" that Paul says?:)

    Thank you much in advance, Ben!
     
  7. Ric

    Ric 1 John 5:13

    +81
    Calvary Chapel
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Hi there,
    This is a tricky subject.

    First of all let me assure you that I believe God's Word 100%, and that we are His forever and no one can takes us from Him after we are saved.

    I'll try my best to answer your two questions.

    1. You asked; "She wasn t really saved?"
    Only God knows one's heart. If your daughter was truly saved she will leave the LDS church one day for the Holy Spirit will keep tugging at her heart. And as someone who is saved the one will find that anything "religious" is hollow and unfulfilling.
    Your daughter sounds like she is an adult now, and the only thing you can do now is to pray for her and give her guidance when ever you can or when she asks for it (and she will ask, just be patient).

    2. You also asked; "she has lost her salvation?"
    Well, I'll let God's Word speak here:
    Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NIV)
    I too beleve in OSAS for God will finish what ever He started!

    I too will pray for your daughter, and God Bless!
     
  8. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    Ah, yes, nothing can separate us from God, but WE can choose to separate from Him. Adam and Eve were in full communion with God, and then made the choice to separate. Notice the difference. No one, or no thing can take God away from us. Hundreds of years of martyrdom have shown that, where saints have willingly gone to their deaths professing their faith. However, we can reject Him.

    That's the "Free Will" situation.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  9. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +171
    Protestant
    Single
    free will?
    so... we "can" lose our salvations?
    i'm confused.
     
  10. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +171
    Protestant
    Single
    salvation through work or faith?

    Ben, here's something i learnt from bible study at church:

    James - justify before men, the demonstration of righteousness (show men that we have Christ in our lives)
    Paul - justify before God, the declaration of our righteousness (show God that we believe in Him)

    James - justify before God at the last judgement (whereby God will judge our work)
    Paul - justify before God at the initial reception status (enter heaven)
     
  11. Candidus

    Candidus New Member

    25
    +0
    THE POWER OF GOD'S PRESERVATION

    How are we kept? It is by the power if God only THROUGH FAITH. If we cease to have faith, we cease to have salvation!

    Paul had his confidence that God would continue his justifying and sanctifying work in them all the way to the end. Yet what was Paul's confidence in? Was it that he believed they were eternally secure and he wanted them to know it? This is what the eternal security proponents want us to believe.
    Paul was confident of their perseverance only because they had "fellowship in the gospel from... THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW." Paul tells what his confidence is based on, and that is what we should believe. If there was a group of believers who showed nothing but good fruit from the day of their conversion until now, then there would be no other choice but to have confidence in the grace of God for them.
    Please take note that the Scriptures never state this kind of confidence for those who are lukewarm or "sinning saints." This promise is only for genuine, obedient believers! Paul himself thought that was "meet" or "just" for him to think this way about them (verse 7). They had given Paul absolutely no reason to doubt that they were genuine Christians! Would he say the same thing of you?


    THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL SECURITY

    I noticed that you left off the previous part of the verse. The promise of security is here, but it is only for the sheep. It says, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.” The Greek reveals that the actions of “hearing” and “following” are in the present tense. Only those that are presently, here and now, hearing and following are His sheep.
    The question is not whether there is security, but whether we are sheep according to the standard of the word of God. There are no promises in the Scriptures for those who do not listen to God, and cease to follow Him.

    Amen! But keep in mind that “believe” in this passage is also in the present tense. It is a present faith that saves us. Many people believed in Santa Claus when they were children, but that does not mean they are believers NOW.

    THE POSSESSION GOD HAS GIVEN HIS SAINTS

    Once again, “hearing” and “believing” are in the present tense. The promise is hinged upon a present tense faith. Who shall not come into condemnation? Who has passed from death unto life? Only the one who is "hearing" and "believing."!!

    Our connection to Christ is surely our source of life. Therefore, we should heed the warnings and exhortations of Scripture concerning our connection to this Source. Jesus said, “ Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” John 15:4. Now, “abide” means to “remain.” How is it that the Scriptures exhort believers to abide, continue, remain, and endure, if according to Eternal Security, it is either impossible to do otherwise (then it would be a waste to warn us or exhort us to do something that cannot but be done), or to say that abiding and remaining are not conditions is to go against the very words of Christ, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. “ 15:6. In the First epistle of John, we see a similar exhortation about abiding. “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” 2:24. Strange words indeed if we are to say that it is impossible not to be “in” the Son after we are born-again.


    Doctrine is to be proved by Scripture, not the theological presupposions that are developed to support that doctrine. This is circular reasoning. This quote is an example of bolstering a doctrine up with theological presuppositions. Notice that these statements must be assumed since there are no passages that make these assertions. Where is the passage that says the death of Christ was a "payment for sin.”?? I am talking of a literal passage, a literal assertion to this fact, not a theological interjection. “He paid my sin debt.” I am curious, to whom was it “paid”?

    The atonement of Christ was a PROVISION and not a PAYMENT.

    -----------------------------------

    http://usaf.webhostme.com/hold_on.htm
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Candidus, AWESOME POST!!! Bravo! The "OSAS" proponents also claim that "you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit, and NOTHING CAN BREAK THAT SEAL!" But when we read Eph1:13, it seems to clearly say that our "sealing" was conditional upon our "having believed". If we cease to believe, will we not also cease to be sealed???
    Happy to oblige. From the text I'm writing on "OSAS":

    "IF" VERSES---IS THE CONTINUANCE OF OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL?
    We have just read a couple of verses that contain "IF" clauses (Rom11:22, Heb3:14), which seem to indicate that salvation is conditional IF something! Are there any more "IF/salvation" verses in the Bible? YES!!!!! 1Corinthians 15:1-2: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (The "believed-in-vain" thing is expounded upon in the next verses...)

    Col1:21ff, "And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--- IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH firmly established and steadfast, and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under Heaven..." Can this verse POSSIBLY mean anything BUT that "continuing in salvation is a choice"??? How can you still hold to "OSAS" in light of even this one verse?

    There are many other verses which do not actually use the "IF" word, but the concept conveys nonetheless: "But he who endures to the end shall be saved" (Mark13:13); "By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE/SOULS" (Luke 21:19); "Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...); "Therefore brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and ELECTION; for as long as you practice these things you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Peter1:10-11 (This is presented as mutually exclusive, that the EISIDOS-GATE will not be presented to us in any other way...)

    OOPS---diligence is required to make certain about His "election" of us! So much for predestination!

    A word of caution here---salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works. We are not saved by our own works. However, good works are certain to accompany true salvation. Directly stated by Jesus, "You will know them by their fruits (deeds, works). No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit." I suggest a careful reading of the 2Peter 1:1-11; it says clearly that as long as we have such qualities as: moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love--- the entrance to Heaven (Greek: "Eisodos", entrance, GATE) is provided us. This is not suggesting that Heaven is earned, but simply another reflection of what Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits". These qualities unavoidably accompany a heart that is saved.

    I would like to ask one last question before we conclude this section: is it possible to have one's name in the Book of Life, but then have that name erased? According to Rev3:5, it does indeed seem possible: "He who overcomes will be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Does this not match perfectly, "He who confesses Me before men, I will confess before My Father who is in Heaven; but he who denies Me before men, I will deny before My Father"? (Matt10:32-33) There are some who contend that John is only reporting a "hypothetical" in this Rev letter to the church of Sardis, that the "blotting from the Book" is not possible, it only affirms that "you WILL overcome and NOT be blotted". Why not simply take it to mean what it says? Perfectly paralleling "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Mark 13:13), and "IF you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY from the gospel that you have heard" (Col 1:23)! In 2Tim2:11-13 it says, "If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He will also deny us." If we deny Him, He will deny us? Can we go to Heaven if He is denying us? This passage is couched as a "thesis/anti-thesis". Specifically, "endure and reign with Him, deny Him and not-reign-with-Him". IF we do not endure, THEN we shall not live with Him. In verse 13 it says He cannot deny Himself---but this does not mean we remain saved. If we deny Him and fall from salvation, He remains faithful---it's not His fault...

    Another thing to consider, Jesus Himself said that children will go to Heaven (Matt19:14); if this is true, then must not their names be written in the Book of Life, from birth? And each name is only removed (blotted), WHEN that child reaches the "age of accountability", AND consciously rejects God?

    :)
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    If you know the truth, can you possibly accept anything else?

    Tell me why someone would actually reject what they know to be true.
     
  14. Ric

    Ric 1 John 5:13

    +81
    Calvary Chapel
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    We can not loose our salvation, if we could that would make God a liar.
     
  15. Candidus

    Candidus New Member

    25
    +0

    Ben,

    This is certainly thought provoking. It is something that must be contended with no matter what side of the issue you fall on.
     
  16. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    The Eternal Security doctrine is the "once saved, always saved" doctrine that so many people have trouble believing, because it just doesn't sound logical.
    Actually, it is VERY logical and very scriptural as well. My eternal security in Christ is based on my RELATIONSHIP with God, not my fellowship with Him. I am not saved because I fear God and serve Him, but rather because I have entered into a Father/Son relationship with Him through the Lord Jesus Christ. I was once a child of the Devil and a child of wrath (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:3), but now I am a son of God (Jhn. 1:12; I Jhn. 3:2; Rom. 8:14; Gal. 4:5). Upon receiving Christ as my Savior, I was SEALED with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30; II Cor. 1:22), and I am KEPT by the power of God (I Pet. 1:5), not by my own power. Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me (Heb. 13:5; Mat. 28:20), because He BOUGHT me with His own blood (Acts 20:28; I Cor. 6:19-20).

    If I choose to be a disobedient child, then my Father in Heaven will CHASTEN me (Rev. 3:19; Heb. 12:4-8; I Cor. 11:30-32), but I will remain a saved and sealed son of God (Jhn. 5:24; I Jhn. 5:11-13; Rom. 8:38-39; Phi. 1:6; Jhn. 6:37; 10:28-29). I am eternally secure in Christ (even if you aren't going to check the references).
     
  17. mooonriverrr

    mooonriverrr New Member

    6
    +0
    Hey folks, one question! There comes a time when the gates of Heaven are closed and a group of folks cry out "Lord Lord let us in". What is Jesuses response to them? Does He talk about lack of faith? Or does He talk about unbelief? Or does He say "If only you REALLY BELIEVED"? No, He doesnt talk about unbelief. He talks about works. "When I was hungry you didnt feed me "etc. There is only one group of people that He could be talking to that is standing on the wrong side of the gate and that is belevers without works. If it was unbelivers without works then He would be implying that they didnt need faith but only works to enter! Thank you and God bless you
     
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Because Humans are fickle. In "contending for the faith", in discussing correct theology, the only basis will be the Bible. So that replies such as, "I believe...", or "I think that...", or "I can't see how...", are completely irrelevant. We must contend with what the Word says...

    "THerefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling (is he talkin' to SAVED people?), consider Jesus... but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence (another "IF" verse!) and the boast of our hope firm until the end. ...Take care, brethren (STILL talkin' about SAVED people!), lest there should be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, ...lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:1-14

    It seems that it is possible for real Christians to forsake salvation, by "paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (as it plainly says in 1Tim4:1ff), and by "the deceitfulness of sin" (which amounts to the same thing...

    HEBREWS is rather the "scourge" of the "OSAS" view, is it not? ;) There is the Heb6, "It is impossible to restore them to repentance while they are falling away" (you hafta check the Greek tense to verify it reads as I have just quoted)...
    Help me to understand what you believe---is it "Carnal Christianity"? That, "saved-RELATIONSHIP" exists apart from "FELLOWSHIP" with Him? If we are not in fellowship with Him, then what are the results? Are we "back-slidden-but-SAVED"? What does "backslidden" mean? Does it not mean, "returning to the defilements of the world"? Or "forgotten our purification from our former sins"? (Yes I'm referring to Peter's letter, 2:1:9ff, and 2:2:20ff)

    Is there such a thing as "carnal Christian"? According to Paul, they-who-commit-sins-willingly, WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD! 1Cor6:9ff And the "despised" book of Hebrews again enters the "fray", "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries." 10:26-27

    It seems pretty clear to me, that he who is "backslidden", is not Christian. "If we say we have fellowship in Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth". Do you still say that it is possible to "walk in the darkness yet STILL go to Heaven"? Remember, Jesus Himself said, "Unless you repent, YOU WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3

    THe "Kept by the power of God" stops two words short: "THROUGH FAITH". Whose faith? Yours. Not "unilaterally-installed-by-God", but "faith-from-heart's-conviction". Faith-unto-salvation is NOT a gift from God, Paul very clearly says, "it comes from HEARING the Word of God". Rm10:17

    I can check your references if you wish, but WHEN I present to you an understanding of how every one exists in harmony with "OSNAS", you hafta promise me that you will check the references _I_ provided, and explain how they exist in harmony with "OSAS". Deal?

    (Excellent post, Moonriver!) (Sayyyy, that's either a stuttering problem, or the other "handle" forms were already taken...)

    :D ;)
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Actually, you guys are both right, and wrong. We cannot, in all of the Universe and all of Eternity, lose our salvation. But the Bible is very clear that we absolutely can REJECT our salvation. Thus, "Real Christians" can become unsaved. Please see the last page of the "OSAS" thread, or just click here. I have been citing Scriptures that seem to very clearly speak of "forsaking salvation"...

    The answer to the "NOTHING can separate us from His love", is Rom5:8. God loved us, BEFORE we were saved. WHILE we were sinners. In a real sense, He loves everyone who chooses Hell. I believe He grieves over each soul lost...
     
  20. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

    +218
    Christian
    Private
    Hmm.... so can one lose his or her salvation or not?
    Seriously, I think that it depends on the heart of that person. I think it is better to leave God to do the judgement.
     
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