• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Omniscience

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by WordSword, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,586
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Free will and water are quite different things. One is an object, the other is an opportunity. Basically a potential. You can feel water, but you can't feel an opportunity.

    Let's simplify it a bit. A will that is free is able to make choices. iow, if an option isn't available to the will, there's no choice to be made.

    And Tituse 2:11 clearly indicates a choice is available to "all people".

    Neither #1 or #2 are relevant, since both contain an "option that cannot be resisted". If it can't be resisted, then it isn't a choice.

    If our free will is an absolute "necessity", then what we FEEL LIKE is also irrelevant.

    If there are constraints on choices, which seems to mean choices can't be made, then there isn't free will.

    Of course it does. If there is no ability to choose, there is no free will.

    How does this relate to free will? Of course Satan has free will. He rebelled. That was a free choice.

    When God presented Job to him, and he accused God of bribery, did God constrain what he could do to Job? In both cases, God gave only 1 constraint. In the first one, satan couldn't touch him physically. In the second one, satan couldn't kill him.

    He certainly was free to choose how to make Job miserable in both circumstances.

    He had many opportunities to choose from. That's free will.
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    See John 10:28-29.

    When did Jesus ever reduce God's will to desire?
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Sounds like a personal problem to me.
    You continue to mistake philosophy for Christian doctrine.

    Can you choose to be sinless?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  4. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

    747
    +120
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    Premise 4: Our election to salvation cannot be unconditional or the non-election of the reprobate is also unconditional: anathema!

    Not likely:

    Romans 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory…

    This says HE bore (the sin of) HIS eternal enemies (the objects of HIS wrath) with great patience but there is no hint here of how they became objects of HIS wrath. "Prepared for destruction" does not say, nor necessarily mean, "created for destruction," but can easily mean

    that after they chose to become HIS eternal enemies by their exercise of free will, HE prepared them for their damnation.

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    "Fitted / prepared
    - κατηρτισμένα katērtismena. This word properly means to "restore; to place in order; to render complete; to supply a defect; to fit to, or adapt to, or prepare for;" see Matthew 4:21, "Were mending their nets." Galatians 6:1, "restore such an one, etc."

    In this place it is a participle, and means those who are suited for or "adapted to" destruction; those whose characters are such as to deserve destruction, or as to make destruction proper..." not those created for destruction.

    WHY bearing with great patience? V23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy… says HIS patience is to show HIS glory to HIS sinful elect, the objects of his mercy. That is, there is something about HIS patience, HIS allowing the damned to live on earth with HIS elect that shows the elect HIS great mercy.

    Bu this begs the question, How does HIS bearing them (ie, bearing the postponement of the judgment) with great patience prove HIS great glory to us, HIS sinful elect?

    Matt 13:28 ...“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘NO!’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

    In "pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them" tells us there is some quality of the wheat that makes them susceptible to the judgement themselves if the damned are judged too soon. Obviously, that would refer to their sinfulness but by the time of the harvest the wheat are matured in holiness and it is safe for the judgement to proceed and the tares to be burnt.

    That is HIS glory; that He waits for the sanctification of every single one of HIS elect who have chosen to be evil in HIS sight by bearing their sin and the sin of the non-elect and the postponement of the judgement with great (long-suffering) patience,

    so HIS promise of election to heaven is perfectly (fully) fulfilled and not one of HIS sinful elect are lost with the damnation of HIS eternal enemies.

    That is what Romans 9:22-23 means to me...

    Peace, Ted

    Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. says nothing about our being born sinners but by being in Adam we are condemned to die by Adam's sin.

    All men DIE because they are men in Adam but to decide that this must mean they inherited his sin to be able to die is bogus, sheer eisegesis. The reprobate demons called goats in human flesh die because they are in Adam though sinned on their own before being flung to the earth and do not need Adam's sin to die or to be judged.

    The thought we die (not sin) in Adam is repeated a bit later in Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.... we die in Adam because we were all sinners already, NOT that he became sinful and we caught it like the pox! We were sent to die in Adam because we sinned by our own free will decision to rebel against GOD before our conception.

    This horrendous doctrine of inherited sin has it that if we did not chose sin by our free will but are indeed made sinners by our birth then GOD is the author of our sin and suffering, not us nor even Adam, the dupe the books of theo-babble against this interpretation notwithstanding.

    Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

    The children of wrath have a sinful nature.
    We have a sinful nature.
    We all got our sinful nature the same way - by a free will choice to rebel against GOD.

    But the sinful elect, the sinful good seed, are NEVER condemned because they are believers: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
    ...only those who never believed are condemned...already.

    Already when? Were the sinful non-believers of today condemned already when John wrote this? Were all non-believers condemned before Adam, before the foundation of the world when we were elected or passed over for election as condemned already?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  5. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

    747
    +120
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    Catchy line...I bet you drive some people nuts with it, eh?
    If the use of the proper definition of things is philosophy, you should learn some philosophy...
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,586
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    FreeGrace2 said:
    For me free will means options available to choose from. So there is no difference between Adam's free will and the rest of mankind.
    No, Jesus didn't teach otherwise. Regarding slaves, they may have limited freedom to choose things, but no one can force what they think. They are free to think whatever they want. And salvation, which is offered to all people (that includes slaves) requires thinking, of which all people can do.

    You're just making up stuff now. God gave Adam only 1 prohibition in the garden.

    And he was free to avoid the fruit or eat it. He chose to eat it. He wasn't compelled, or forced, or any such silly thing.

    That wasn't the issue. From recognizing God and being thankful, what did God for Cornelius? He sent an angel with a message "by which you and your household will be saved". And Cornelius BELIEVED the angel AND Peter's message.

    That's free will.

    Why do you keep saying free will isn't an issue? What have you against it?

    Your second sentence is irrelevant. Man has a conscience and makes choices. That is free will.

    No one is compelled or forced to believe or reject the gospel.

    Good.

    And man freely believes the gospel message, as Cornelius did.


    I'm surprised you missed John 6:44. But v.45 explains WHO will come to Jesus.


    I said:
    "Again, Titus 2:11 is for everyone, not certain ones."
    So what? By appearing means it is offered. Obviously the gospel is "effective" only for those who choose what God is offering, which is salvation.
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    You can't even tell the difference between your philosophy and NT teaching.

    Scripture disagrees.

    Man is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Slaves are not free.

    The angels like Adam were created with a totally free will capable of making all moral choices suitable to their nature.
    Both angels and man were created able to choose to be sinless.
    Adam abused his free will, thereby diminishing it. Adam's descendants inherit his diminished free will. They cannot choose to be sinless.
    You are capable of making moral choices--the meaning of free will, but you are not capable of making all moral choices; e.g., the choice to be sinless, as both the angels and Adam were at their creation.

    However, the NT reveals that all men are born guilty of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18, 12, 16).
    NEWSFLASH! You don't get a vote in the Divine Council.
    The demons have no more choice to be good than dogs have to like vinegar.
    You gotta' get over subjecting the divine will to human philosophy.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,586
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Actually, I've never had to deal with anyone who mistook philosophy for Christian doctrine.
    They've never tried to mix them up.
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    A distinction without a difference.

    There are only two destines--salvation and destruction.

    If you weren't chosen for salvation, you will go to destruction.
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,586
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    What is the basis for being chosen for salvation?
     
  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    God's purpose and will. . .same as election of Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  13. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    John 6:65-->John 6:37-->John 6:39-40, John 3:7-8 (new birth into eternal life, which is permanent).
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,586
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Exactly!

    11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
    12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

    The purpose in God's election is always service. In every verse.
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,586
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    FreeGrace2 said:
    Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?
    Sorry, but none of these verses says anything about election.

    Do you know any verses that plainly say election is about or to or for salvation?
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    And in John 6:65?
     
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Do you know any verses that plainly say God is sovereign?

    So what do you think Jesus gives to those who come to him? (John 6:65)
    John 6:39?
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    .
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +1,394
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    .
     
  20. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

    747
    +120
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    I disagree...because none of the the effects of election can be achieved outside of salvation.

    Ephesians 1:4-5
    Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will... No human sinner (and all are sinners) can be holy and blameless outside of salvation...it is the slavative content of the promise of election that when fulfilled renders us holy and blameless. Salvation means to be removed from the legal and natural consequences of becoming a sinners, and that removal makes us holy and blameless.

    Election (being chosen to receive salvation) predestined us to be adopted as legitimate sons by redemption, by sanctification, ie by salvation.

    I do not yet see a point as to why you have chosen to disagree with election being a promise of salvation from sin and a predestination to be HIS heavenly Bride.
     
Loading...