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Omniscience

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by WordSword, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Oh, I agree. . .it's not a problem. I was just speaking from the prospective of the questioners.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    When you think about it, that's no different than God determining (ordaining, decreeing, effecting; i.e., predestining) before he created them what their eternal destiny would be, as he did with Jacob and Esau.
     
  3. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    I thought we were the same on that issue, thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Yes, I know. :amen:
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    :oldthumbsup:
     
  6. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    I agree...

    but I wonder, since we were chosen before the foundation of the world, did we exist and believe then or was it some future thing we did that gave HIM reason to choose us?
     
  7. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    IF (as HE might have) GOD left our FATES up to our own free will decision where to put our faith (in HIM or against HIM as a liar and a false god) as the basis for our election or non-election before the foundation of the world, then this verse about "making him for destruction" or "fitting to destruction" would be about our LIVES, (not our fates) lived in accord within our previously committed faith, that is, believer's LIVES are fitted to salvation by the promise of election and non-believer's LIVES are fitted to destruction as they have never believed, Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed [ie have never believed] in the name of God's one and only Son.

    Whoever said that this verse MUST refer to our creation got it sooo wrong...they had logic but no understanding of the love of GOD for everyone.
     
  8. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    If HE did this to Jacob and Esau with no free will input from them then HE also did it to Satan and the demons with no free will input from them...or are the demons the only ones who fell by their free will and all others are created evil after being put into the inherited sin with no free will category?
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Not just Jacob and Esau. . .I had no "free-will input" about being born, about being male or female, about who were my parents, about where I was born, about the color of my eyes, hair and skin, about my IQ, etc., etc., etc.

    What's with this "free-will input" regarding one's origin.
    How much free will did you have regarding your origin?

    Ole' chip on the shoulder?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    :clap:

    Eph 1:4 has been badly misunderstood by Calvinists. It says nothing about salvation. In fact, none of the Greek words that are translated "elect/election" are about salvation. Every example of those described as the elect are about service.

    So, Eph 1:4 teaches that God chose believers (that's who the "us" mean, per Eph 1:19) for service, and that choice was before the foundation of the world.

    No, we didn't exist then, or believe then. But God's omniscience has always known who would believe, and His plan is to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.
     
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  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Not the issue.

    When the Bible says that man has no excuse because God has revealed Himself through creation (Romans 1:19-21), that proves free will.

    To be clear, free will is simply opportunity to choose. Calvinsts love to make it into some kind of object or something, that does things.

    Has anyone ever seen an opportunity do something? No, of course not. It's a human who does things because of the opportunity.
     
  12. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Premise 1: All free will decisions must be sacrosanct or they are not free in fact, only in feeling.

    Premise 2: Sin can only accrue to a person choosing by a free will decision to reject GOD or to rebel against HIS commands...no one is seen as sinful if innocent of such a choice.

    Premise 3: Being conceived / born as a sinner or sinful in any way or propensity cannot be our creation as it makes us sinners without any free will decision to sin, no mens rea and without guilty intent there can be no crime.

    If GOD created me a sinner without my free will choice to sin then I am a sinner by HIS will and my sins accrue to HIM, which cannot be true and is frankly abhorrent.

    Premise 4: Our election to salvation cannot be unconditional or the non-election of the reprobate is also unconditional: anathema!

    It is my suggestion we were elected before the foundation of the world due to our faith in HIM as our GOD and in the Son as the only saviour for sin and the reprobate were passed over for election for sinning the unforgivable sin of rejecting HIS claims to be our GOD as the lies of a false god. And yes, this is just what it sounds like, a belief that we were there pre-election, before the foundation of the world.

    Only those who sinned were flung (sown, planted), to the earth, reprobate and elect alike as per Matt 13:36-39, though the elect were never condemned and the unbelievers are already condemned: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. ie, infants are saved if they are believers, and not saved if condemned already.

    A sinner is enslaved to the addiction of sin so when GOD manipulates the lives of sinners, (ie everyone who has been or will be conceived or born on earth, Jacob, Essau Jeremiah, everyone), GOD is NOT going against our free will but only against our sinful will which, due to our choice to sin, set us at enmity to HIM. We chose our FATES pre-election and GOD chose, predetermined, our LIVES as sinners, lives which conform to our previously chosen free will decisions (for both the reprobate and sinful elect), for one purpose, the sanctification of the sinful elect to end the postponement of the judgement.

    Being careless about our free will in both election and in salvation by grace, need not be countenanced.
     
  13. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Man has limited free will, limited by his fallen nature, not the free will of Adam, but he enjoys limited free will.
    Free will is not the issue. All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18).
    Free will is the issue only in philosophy, it is not the issue in the NT.
    Not in the NT. See Romans 5:18.
    That's philosophy, not the NT.
    You were born a sinner by the natural process of reproduction, not by creation. Only Adam and Eve were created. And you inherited the nature of your predecessor--fallen.
    However, that is precisely what the NT teaches, see Romans 9:22.

    We are born sinners, condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18, Ephesians 2:3).
    Only faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice (not guilty) redeems us from this condemnation (John 3:18; Romans 3:25).

    The reprobate are those whom God does not enable to believe in his Son, for his own purposes.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    For me free will means options available to choose from. So there is no difference between Adam's free will and the rest of mankind.

    I don't see why this would be an issue. God has revealed Himself to everyone through creation so that man has no excuse for not recognizing Him as Creator God and being thankful to Him. Romans 1:19-21.

    So, because God has revealed Himself, everyone has the opportunity to recognize Creator God and being thankful to Him. But many choose not to be interested in Him. Free choice. Cornelius is an example of an unsaved person (Acts 11:14) who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, as evidenced by His prayers and alms to the poor.

    I disagree. Titus 2:11 definitely shows free will.

    "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

    When an offer is made, a choice is created. to accept or not.

    Titus 2:11 creates a choice for "all people". That's free will in action.

    Correct. And believing is a choice. The Bible plainly says that men "refused to believe". Acts 14:2 and 19:9. And men "refused to repent". Rev 16:9,11

    Where does the Bible say that God doesn't enable anyone to believe in His Son.

    Again, Titus 2:11 is for everyone, not certain ones.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    You misquoted John 6:39. What Jesus actually said was

    This is the WILL (desire) of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭6:39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

    If Jesus had actually said “I shall lose none” then John 15:6 would be impossible.
     
  16. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    It proves we had a free will when HE created the physical universe but now, as sinners? Nope, are not sinners enslaved to sin...
     
  17. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Unable to accept. Water is wet, never dry, by the definition of things. A will is free or not free, ie limited, not both.

    A free will must be FREE from all coercions* or constraints** when choosing any applicable options to the choice.

    *A coercion is a compulsion or force to choose a particular option that cannot be resisted. An example would be if GOD created us with no free will but with an innate desire to only do HIS will that restricts our ability to choose evil.

    **A constraint is any compulsion or force that forces a limit against choosing a particular option which cannot be resisted. An example would be if GOD created us under a compulsion to sin that permeates our decisions which restricts our ability to choose righteousness.

    An influence is anything intending to produce a decision to choose one option over the others which can be considered then either accepted or rejected according to which we think or hope will give us the best life.

    Claiming a limited (constrained) free will is just another way of saying we have no free will but since our free will is an absolute necessity we FEEL like we must have a free will because we can still make choices, albeit choices driven by our sinful nature, not a nature free of all constraints.

    The ability to choose does not connote a free will as some suggest. Satan makes choices thare all obviously driven by evil...we are just not so aware of that in ourselves.
     
  18. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    This doctrine claims it was GOD who set the natural process of reproduction to be our creation and to have us to be sinners by this method. The hoops people jump thru to keep this foolish doctrine yet deny GOD creates sinners with it is amazing... Without a free will decision to reject HIM or to rebel against HIS command there can be no sin!

    Why did HE allow the angels to use their free will to make up their own minds about Satan's rebellion and follow him into sin or not but then when Adam sinned, HE forced us, HIS Church and Bride to be, to be conceived and born evil in Adam with no free will involvement from us???

    The demons got more choice to be good or evil in HIS sight than we did being bound by the the natural process of reproduction by our creation as we supposedly are? Does this seem likely?
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Jesus teaches otherwise (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.

    Can you choose to be sinless? Adam could.
    Recognition and thanksgiving won't redeem you from the condemnation in which you are born (Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3).
    Free will is not the issue. No one is acting contrary to his will, either the redeemed or the damned.
    Agreed, he had the same free will as everyone has, to choose according to his preference.
    Free will is not denied, man freely chooses not to believe.
    "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65) Ergo: Those who do come were enabled.

    "All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37) Ergo: Those who come are all enabled, all who do not come were not enabled.

    "I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39) Ergo: It's a fail-safe closed system.

    It has "appeared," does not mean "effective" for everyone.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Didn't you read Titus 2:11? God's grace offers salvation to all people. How is that not an opportunity to receive it?

    Of course it is. And that is what free will is. An opportunity to make a choice.

    To receive, or not to receive.

    Being a sinner has no relevance to receiving salvation.
     
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