Omniscience

FreeGrace2

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Unable to accept. Water is wet, never dry, by the definition of things. A will is free or not free, ie limited, not both.
Free will and water are quite different things. One is an object, the other is an opportunity. Basically a potential. You can feel water, but you can't feel an opportunity.

A free will must be FREE from all coercions* or constraints** when choosing any applicable options to the choice.
Let's simplify it a bit. A will that is free is able to make choices. iow, if an option isn't available to the will, there's no choice to be made.

And Tituse 2:11 clearly indicates a choice is available to "all people".

*A coercion is a compulsion or force to choose a particular option that cannot be resisted. An example would be if GOD created us with no free will but with an innate desire to only do HIS will that restricts our ability to choose evil.

**A constraint
is any compulsion or force that forces a limit against choosing a particular option which cannot be resisted. An example would be if GOD created us under a compulsion to sin that permeates our decisions which restricts our ability to choose righteousness.

An influence is anything intending to produce a decision to choose one option over the others which can be considered then either accepted or rejected according to which we think or hope will give us the best life.
Neither #1 or #2 are relevant, since both contain an "option that cannot be resisted". If it can't be resisted, then it isn't a choice.

Claiming a limited (constrained) free will is just another way of saying we have no free will but since our free will is an absolute necessity we FEEL like we must have a free will because we can still make choices
If our free will is an absolute "necessity", then what we FEEL LIKE is also irrelevant.

albeit choices driven by our sinful nature, not a nature free of all constraints.
If there are constraints on choices, which seems to mean choices can't be made, then there isn't free will.

The ability to choose does not connote a free will as some suggest.
Of course it does. If there is no ability to choose, there is no free will.

Satan makes choices thare all obviously driven by evil...we are just not so aware of that in ourselves.
How does this relate to free will? Of course Satan has free will. He rebelled. That was a free choice.

When God presented Job to him, and he accused God of bribery, did God constrain what he could do to Job? In both cases, God gave only 1 constraint. In the first one, satan couldn't touch him physically. In the second one, satan couldn't kill him.

He certainly was free to choose how to make Job miserable in both circumstances.

He had many opportunities to choose from. That's free will.
 
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Clare73

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You misquoted John 6:39. What Jesus actually said was

This is the WILL (desire) of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39‬ ‭NASB1995

If Jesus had actually said “I shall lose none” then John 15:6 would be impossible.
See John 10:28-29.

When did Jesus ever reduce God's will to desire?
 
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Clare73

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Unable to accept.
Sounds like a personal problem to me.
Water is wet, never dry, by the definition of things. A will is free or not free, ie limited, not both.
You continue to mistake philosophy for Christian doctrine.

Can you choose to be sinless?
A free will must be FREE from all coercions* or constraints** when choosing any applicable options to the choice.

*A coercion is a compulsion or force to choose a particular option that cannot be resisted. An example would be if GOD created us with no free will but with an innate desire to only do HIS will that restricts our ability to choose evil.

**A constraint is any compulsion or force that forces a limit against choosing a particular option which cannot be resisted. An example would be if GOD created us under a compulsion to sin that permeates our decisions which restricts our ability to choose righteousness.

An influence is anything intending to produce a decision to choose one option over the others which can be considered then either accepted or rejected according to which we think or hope will give us the best life.

Claiming a limited (constrained) free will is just another way of saying we have no free will but since our free will is an absolute necessity we FEEL like we must have a free will because we can still make choices, albeit choices driven by our sinful nature, not a nature free of all constraints.

The ability to choose does not connote a free will as some suggest. Satan makes choices thare all obviously driven by evil...we are just not so aware of that in ourselves.
 
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TedT

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Premise 4: Our election to salvation cannot be unconditional or the non-election of the reprobate is also unconditional: anathema!

However, that is precisely what the NT teaches, see Romans 9:22.]

Not likely:

Romans 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory…

This says HE bore (the sin of) HIS eternal enemies (the objects of HIS wrath) with great patience but there is no hint here of how they became objects of HIS wrath. "Prepared for destruction" does not say, nor necessarily mean, "created for destruction," but can easily mean

that after they chose to become HIS eternal enemies by their exercise of free will, HE prepared them for their damnation.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
"Fitted / prepared
- κατηρτισμένα katērtismena. This word properly means to "restore; to place in order; to render complete; to supply a defect; to fit to, or adapt to, or prepare for;" see Matthew 4:21, "Were mending their nets." Galatians 6:1, "restore such an one, etc."

In this place it is a participle, and means those who are suited for or "adapted to" destruction; those whose characters are such as to deserve destruction, or as to make destruction proper..." not those created for destruction.

WHY bearing with great patience? V23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy… says HIS patience is to show HIS glory to HIS sinful elect, the objects of his mercy. That is, there is something about HIS patience, HIS allowing the damned to live on earth with HIS elect that shows the elect HIS great mercy.

Bu this begs the question, How does HIS bearing them (ie, bearing the postponement of the judgment) with great patience prove HIS great glory to us, HIS sinful elect?

Matt 13:28 ...“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘NO!’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

In "pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them" tells us there is some quality of the wheat that makes them susceptible to the judgement themselves if the damned are judged too soon. Obviously, that would refer to their sinfulness but by the time of the harvest the wheat are matured in holiness and it is safe for the judgement to proceed and the tares to be burnt.

That is HIS glory; that He waits for the sanctification of every single one of HIS elect who have chosen to be evil in HIS sight by bearing their sin and the sin of the non-elect and the postponement of the judgement with great (long-suffering) patience,

so HIS promise of election to heaven is perfectly (fully) fulfilled and not one of HIS sinful elect are lost with the damnation of HIS eternal enemies.

That is what Romans 9:22-23 means to me...

Peace, Ted

We are born sinners, condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18, Ephesians 2:3).

Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. says nothing about our being born sinners but by being in Adam we are condemned to die by Adam's sin.

All men DIE because they are men in Adam but to decide that this must mean they inherited his sin to be able to die is bogus, sheer eisegesis. The reprobate demons called goats in human flesh die because they are in Adam though sinned on their own before being flung to the earth and do not need Adam's sin to die or to be judged.

The thought we die (not sin) in Adam is repeated a bit later in Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.... we die in Adam because we were all sinners already, NOT that he became sinful and we caught it like the pox! We were sent to die in Adam because we sinned by our own free will decision to rebel against GOD before our conception.

This horrendous doctrine of inherited sin has it that if we did not chose sin by our free will but are indeed made sinners by our birth then GOD is the author of our sin and suffering, not us nor even Adam, the dupe the books of theo-babble against this interpretation notwithstanding.

We are born sinners, condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18, Ephesians 2:3).
Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

The children of wrath have a sinful nature.
We have a sinful nature.
We all got our sinful nature the same way - by a free will choice to rebel against GOD.

But the sinful elect, the sinful good seed, are NEVER condemned because they are believers: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
...only those who never believed are condemned...already.

Already when? Were the sinful non-believers of today condemned already when John wrote this? Were all non-believers condemned before Adam, before the foundation of the world when we were elected or passed over for election as condemned already?
 
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TedT

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You continue to mistake philosophy for Christian doctrine.
Catchy line...I bet you drive some people nuts with it, eh?
If the use of the proper definition of things is philosophy, you should learn some philosophy...
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
For me free will means options available to choose from. So there is no difference between Adam's free will and the rest of mankind.
Jesus teaches otherwise (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.
No, Jesus didn't teach otherwise. Regarding slaves, they may have limited freedom to choose things, but no one can force what they think. They are free to think whatever they want. And salvation, which is offered to all people (that includes slaves) requires thinking, of which all people can do.

Can you choose to be sinless? Adam could.
You're just making up stuff now. God gave Adam only 1 prohibition in the garden.

And he was free to avoid the fruit or eat it. He chose to eat it. He wasn't compelled, or forced, or any such silly thing.

Recognition and thanksgiving won't redeem you from the condemnation in which you are born (Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3).
That wasn't the issue. From recognizing God and being thankful, what did God for Cornelius? He sent an angel with a message "by which you and your household will be saved". And Cornelius BELIEVED the angel AND Peter's message.

That's free will.

Free will is not the issue. No one is acting contrary to his will, either the redeemed or the damned.
Why do you keep saying free will isn't an issue? What have you against it?

Your second sentence is irrelevant. Man has a conscience and makes choices. That is free will.

No one is compelled or forced to believe or reject the gospel.

Agreed, he had the same free will as everyone has, to choose according to his preference.
Good.

Free will is not denied, man freely chooses not to believe.
And man freely believes the gospel message, as Cornelius did.

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65) Ergo: Those who do come were enabled.

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37) Ergo: Those who come are all enabled, all who do not come were not enabled.

"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39) Ergo: It's a fail-safe closed system.

I'm surprised you missed John 6:44. But v.45 explains WHO will come to Jesus.


I said:
"Again, Titus 2:11 is for everyone, not certain ones."
It has "appeared," does not mean "effective" for everyone.
So what? By appearing means it is offered. Obviously the gospel is "effective" only for those who choose what God is offering, which is salvation.
 
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Clare73

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This doctrine claims it was GOD who set the natural process of reproduction to be our creation and to have us to be sinners by this method. The hoops people jump thru to keep this foolish doctrine yet deny GOD creates sinners with it is amazing... Without a free will decision to reject HIM or to rebel against HIS command there can be no sin!
You can't even tell the difference between your philosophy and NT teaching.

Scripture disagrees.

Man is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Slaves are not free.

Why did HE allow the angels to use their free will to make up their own minds
The angels like Adam were created with a totally free will capable of making all moral choices suitable to their nature.
Both angels and man were created able to choose to be sinless.
Adam abused his free will, thereby diminishing it. Adam's descendants inherit his diminished free will. They cannot choose to be sinless.
about Satan's rebellion and follow him into sin or not but then when Adam sinned, HE forced us, HIS Church and Bride to be, to be conceived and born evil in Adam with no free will involvement from us???
You are capable of making moral choices--the meaning of free will, but you are not capable of making all moral choices; e.g., the choice to be sinless, as both the angels and Adam were at their creation.

However, the NT reveals that all men are born guilty of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18, 12, 16).
NEWSFLASH! You don't get a vote in the Divine Council.
The demons got more choice to be good or evil
The demons have no more choice to be good than dogs have to like vinegar.
in HIS sight than we did being bound by the the natural process of reproduction by our creation as we supposedly are?
Does this seem likely?
You gotta' get over subjecting the divine will to human philosophy.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Premise 4: Our election to salvation cannot be unconditional or the non-election of the reprobate is also unconditional: anathema!
Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?
 
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Clare73

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Catchy line...I bet you drive some people nuts with it, eh?
If the use of the proper definition of things is philosophy, you should learn some philosophy...
Actually, I've never had to deal with anyone who mistook philosophy for Christian doctrine.
They've never tried to mix them up.
 
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Clare73

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Premise 4: Our election to salvation cannot be unconditional or the non-election of the reprobate is also unconditional: anathema!
Not likely:nRomans 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory…
This says HE bore (the sin of) HIS eternal enemies (the objects of HIS wrath) with great patience but there is no hint here of how they became objects of HIS wrath. "Prepared for destruction" does not say, nor necessarily mean, "created for destruction,"
A distinction without a difference.

There are only two destines--salvation and destruction.

If you weren't chosen for salvation, you will go to destruction.
but can easily mean

that after they chose to become HIS eternal enemies by their exercise of free will, HE prepared them for their damnation.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
"Fitted / prepared
- κατηρτισμένα katērtismena. This word properly means to "restore; to place in order; to render complete; to supply a defect; to fit to, or adapt to, or prepare for;" see Matthew 4:21, "Were mending their nets." Galatians 6:1, "restore such an one, etc."

In this place it is a participle, and means those who are suited for or "adapted to" destruction; those whose characters are such as to deserve destruction, or as to make destruction proper..." not those created for destruction.

WHY bearing with great patience? V23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy… says HIS patience is to show HIS glory to HIS sinful elect, the objects of his mercy. That is, there is something about HIS patience, HIS allowing the damned to live on earth with HIS elect that shows the elect HIS great mercy.

Bu this begs the question, How does HIS bearing them (ie, bearing the postponement of the judgment) with great patience prove HIS great glory to us, HIS sinful elect?

Matt 13:28 ...“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘NO!’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

In "pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them" tells us there is some quality of the wheat that makes them susceptible to the judgement themselves if the damned are judged too soon. Obviously, that would refer to their sinfulness but by the time of the harvest the wheat are matured in holiness and it is safe for the judgement to proceed and the tares to be burnt.

That is HIS glory; that He waits for the sanctification of every single one of HIS elect who have chosen to be evil in HIS sight by bearing their sin and the sin of the non-elect and the postponement of the judgement with great (long-suffering) patience,

so HIS promise of election to heaven is perfectly (fully) fulfilled and not one of HIS sinful elect are lost with the damnation of HIS eternal enemies.

That is what Romans 9:22-23 means to me...

Peace, Ted

Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. says nothing about our being born sinners but by being in Adam we are condemned to die by Adam's sin.

All men DIE because they are men in Adam but to decide that this must mean they inherited his sin to be able to die is bogus, sheer eisegesis. The reprobate demons called goats in human flesh die because they are in Adam though sinned on their own before being flung to the earth and do not need Adam's sin to die or to be judged.

The thought we die (not sin) in Adam is repeated a bit later in Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.... we die in Adam because we were all sinners already, NOT that he became sinful and we caught it like the pox! We were sent to die in Adam because we sinned by our own free will decision to rebel against GOD before our conception.

This horrendous doctrine of inherited sin has it that if we did not chose sin by our free will but are indeed made sinners by our birth then GOD is the author of our sin and suffering, not us nor even Adam, the dupe the books of theo-babble against this interpretation notwithstanding.


Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

The children of wrath have a sinful nature.
We have a sinful nature.
We all got our sinful nature the same way - by a free will choice to rebel against GOD.

But the sinful elect, the sinful good seed, are NEVER condemned because they are believers: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
...only those who never believed are condemned...already.

Already when? Were the sinful non-believers of today condemned already when John wrote this? Were all non-believers condemned before Adam, before the foundation of the world when we were elected or passed over for election as condemned already?
 
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Clare73

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Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?
John 6:65-->John 6:37-->John 6:39-40, John 3:7-8 (new birth into eternal life, which is permanent).
 
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FreeGrace2

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God's purpose and will. . .same as election of Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).
Exactly!

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

The purpose in God's election is always service. In every verse.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?
John 6:65-->John 6:37-->John 6:39-40, John 3:7-8 (new birth into eternal life, which is permanent).
Sorry, but none of these verses says anything about election.

Do you know any verses that plainly say election is about or to or for salvation?
 
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Clare73

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Exactly!

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

The purpose in God's election is always service. In every verse.
And in John 6:65?
 
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Clare73

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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?

Sorry, but none of these verses says anything about election.

Do you know any verses that plainly say election is about or to or for salvation?
Do you know any verses that plainly say God is sovereign?

So what do you think Jesus gives to those who come to him? (John 6:65)
John 6:39?
 
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TedT

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Eph 1:4 has been badly misunderstood by Calvinists. It says nothing about salvation. In fact, none of the Greek words that are translated "elect/election" are about salvation. Every example of those described as the elect are about service.
I disagree...because none of the the effects of election can be achieved outside of salvation.

Ephesians 1:4-5
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will... No human sinner (and all are sinners) can be holy and blameless outside of salvation...it is the slavative content of the promise of election that when fulfilled renders us holy and blameless. Salvation means to be removed from the legal and natural consequences of becoming a sinners, and that removal makes us holy and blameless.

Election (being chosen to receive salvation) predestined us to be adopted as legitimate sons by redemption, by sanctification, ie by salvation.

I do not yet see a point as to why you have chosen to disagree with election being a promise of salvation from sin and a predestination to be HIS heavenly Bride.
 
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