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Omniscience

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by WordSword, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Ummm, why then did HE not use HIS omniscience to do the loving thing, the righteous thing and not create those HE always knew would be damned to eternal flames for their unbelief? Is it not a blasphemy to attribute to HIM unloving and non-righteous acts?

    1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. I'm sure this means something to you but I cannot see any connection to our topic.
     
  2. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    I contend that we all had our chance to choose to be holy and sinless like the holy, elect angels.

    I contend that GOD created everyone in HIS image innocent with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put their faith in HIM OR to reject HIM as a liar and a false god.
     
  3. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    IF it is his will I sin and be damned, HE is not the GOD who is love. and righteousness.
    ---------------------------------------
    Light cannot create darkness.

    A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
    A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
    GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
    Inherited sin or sin by the will of GOD is anathema.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    It's not about what we contend, it's about NT teaching.
    First of all, angels don't have progeny.

    And we did have the chance, with our father. . .Adam. . .and he blew it, and his progeny can't inherit any trait he didn't have to pass on.
    What we contend is without merit, it must be Biblically demonstrated.
    Feel free to do so. . .and don't forget to reckon with Ephesians 2:3, "by birth (nature), objects of wrath."
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  5. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Didn't you read Jn 3:18?

    Titus 2:11 does NOT happen on earth where the unbelievers are all already condemned. I contend it did happen pre-election before the foundation of the world at the time of Satan's fall into rebellion and the election of the the faithul.
     
  6. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You are damned (condemned) by Adam's guilt (Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3).
    Can we say the same of the Judge at the County Courthouse who sentences one to death, or life in prison--that he is not loving and righteous?

    ---------------------------------------
    Light cannot create darkness.

    A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
    A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
    GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
    Inherited sin or sin by the will of GOD is anathema.
    Can we say the same of the Judge at the County Courthouse who sentences one to death, or life in prison?
     
  7. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Yet people claim we are enslaved by sin so strongly we can't save ourselves from it yet we still have a free will...I discount that. The ability to choose is not proof of a free will because a sinful will unable to resist evil still makes many evil choices, ie this evil or that evil or even this time I might be nice (but still evil).
     
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    .
     
  9. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    It is an absolute necessity for GOD to fulfill the purpose of our creaton to become HIS Bride in a true marriage based on love.

    Our feelings of choosing freely is indeed irrelevant but it does lead many astray into strange theology.
     
  10. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Clare73 said:
    Jesus teaches otherwise (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.

    The meaning is not a slave like in human relationships but enslaved as in a psychological compulsion like an addiction which permeates every desire, every thought and every choice of the person and they can't choose to be free of it. Claiming slaves can choose what they think so they have a free will against the clear meaning of Christ's intent is pure eisegesis in support of an untenable doctrine.
     
  11. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    ...yet though deemed to be innocent by many, Adam was given a command which must not conflict with
    1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, etc, etc.

    ...the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels - time to rethink Adam's status perhaps as supposedly the only innocent person to be given a command.

    It s also curious that the word used to describe the serpent's crafty evil is the same word used for Adam and Eve's nakedness. `RM has two meanings and the meaning is decided by eisegesis, how we figure which one fits the context better. There is also a reference to Noah being naked that clearly means to be unclothed and it is not `rm that is used.

    It is well within the meaning of the words to think that Adam and Eve were already sinful when they were sown, (planted, not created) in the garden as per Matt 13:36-39.

    The other problem with Adam being innocent in the garden is that when their eyes were opened to their sin, they saw the nakedness they had before they ate, not the sin of their eating. Both the Hebrew word `rm used as a hominem for evil and their eyes being opened to their previously held nakedness (an oft used metaphor for sinfulness) imply that by having this condition before they ate imply strongly they were already sinners when they ate.

    Then there is the small point of Adam being the first to bring sin into the world. In my book the serpent entered the garden with sinful intent to sin and tempted Eve, the first to sin. Then Eve ate, the second to sin and tempted Adam, the third to sin, when he ate.

    It makes sense to say Adam brought sin into the world if Adam was a sinner when he was moved from Sheol into his human body and as the first person in the garden, was the first to bring evil into world.

    This is a logical explanation of the words and story that supports my contention Adam and Eve were sinners before they ate the fruit, sinners before they came to the garden, and they were brought here to have their eyes opened to their sinfulness which they denied, ie, they were not ashamed. That there are other interpretations does not prove mine false but means they must both be studied without ignoring one interpretation for a pre-accepted simple eisegesis...
     
  12. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
    12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

    The purpose in God's election is always service. In every verse.
    65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

    There is no mention of election in v.65. God's purpose in election is clearly stated in Rom 9:11,12. It's about service. In every example of people in the Bible described as being "elected". Every example.
     
  13. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    I champion the need for our free will or the heavenly marriage based upon love for GOD is a sham.

    I also completely deny that sinners have a free will here on earth...it is frankly impossible when we are enslaved by the addictive power of evil.
    ...at least until their rebirth when it seems like their free will is restored, Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

    Preamble:
    Some people were there when GOD created the physical universe, ie, they were created before the physical universe and sang HIS praises with joy: Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the Sons of GOD shouted for joy? when they witnessed this display of HIS deity and power. The words "sons of GOD" are literal, but interpreted for us as angels to make it easier for us to understand how this verse does not contradict the created on earth theory. <headshake, facepalm>

    Conclusion:
    I believe that this group of people contained every person created in HIS image as innocent with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith in YHWH OR to reject HIM as a liar and a false god. Those who choose faith in HIM were chosen by HIM, ie elected, and promised salvation for all future sin to become HIS heavenly Bride once all evil was eradicated. Then some elect rebelled against the call for the judgement forcing it to be postponed so they would not be caught up in the destruction for their sin: Matt 13:28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

    So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.
    The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the seed and the only maturity which saves a sinner from the judgement is the maturity of sanctification.

    Thus we live together with those demons who rejected HIM as a liar and a fase god, sinners all, our free will held captive by evil from our foolish rebellion to HIS call to come out from among them and touch not their uncleanness.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?

    Sorry, but none of these verses says anything about election.

    Do you know any verses that plainly say election is about or to or for salvation?
    There are many that clearly INDICATE that God is sovereign.

    And your question does not address my question to you.

    Salvation of course. But neither of these 2 verses even mentions election.

    You are presuming a lot here.
     
  15. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    I am most decidedly NOT a Calvinist and abhor the doctrine of unconditional election but every verse about election refers to things that can only happen after our redemption and sanctification which is the meaning of the process of salvation...
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Eph 1:4 has been badly misunderstood by Calvinists. It says nothing about salvation. In fact, none of the Greek words that are translated "elect/election" are about salvation. Every example of those described as the elect are about service.
    You are free to disagree. But you miss the point. Election is for service. Even Judas Iscariot was chosen. John 6:70. And he was not saved.

    The point is that the word "us" in v.4 refers specifically to believers, who are already saved. So your point is actually pointless.

    Please show any verse that says people are chosen to receive salvation.

    The point is clear. There are NO verses that say that election is to salvation. That is just a presumption.

    In fact, all of the biblical examples of who are described as being 'elect' are about service. Every example. That is the point.
     
  17. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Chosen for no known reason to be saved or destroyed. RIIIIGHT....no difference at all.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    No, we didn't exist then, or believe then. But God's omniscience has always known who would believe, and His plan is to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.
    Your questions reveal that you really don't believe 1 Cor 1:21. Why is that?

    The point of the verse is that "God is pleased to save those who believe".

    If calvinism were true, it would have said "God is pleased to choose (elect) who will believe".
     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    Didn't you read Titus 2:11? God's grace offers salvation to all people. How is that not an opportunity to receive it?
    Sure. It says those who "have not believed" which means NEVER believed will be condemned. This verse has nothing to do with election.

    Absurd. Of course it does. Where do you think it 'happens' then?

    Your contention is unbiblical. Tituse 2:11 refers to "all people". Didn't you read it?
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    They're wrong.

    You're wrong. Ability to choose IS IS IS free will. It is you who do not understand what free will is.
     
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