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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AubreyM, Apr 5, 2021.

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  1. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Formerly FireInFolding

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    His people

    Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Lost sheep of the house of Israel

    Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    His own recieved him not

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Other sheep not of this fold

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Rejoice ye Gentiles with his people

    Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
     
  2. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Now that I think about it, Acts 3:19 says you must repent to have your sins forgiven.







    1 Timothy 2: 5
    For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.​

    For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men.

    There is only one God.

    There is only one mediator between God and Men.

    the man Christ Jesus. -> Faith on the Lord Jesus Christ -> Access to God our Father.

    Who gave Himself -> The Man Christ Jesus -> as a ransom for all.

    The testimony that was given at the right time.

    Christ Jesus the Man Son of God of Nazareth paid for all the sins of the world.

    Ransom: 487 487 antílytron (from 473 /antí, "corresponding to, instead of/exchange" and 3083 /lýtron, "ransom-price") – properly, a full ransom, referring to Christ paying the complete purchase-price to secure our freedom (redemption) – i.e. Christ exchanging His eternal righteousness for our sin (cf. Ro 3:26; 2 Cor 5:21).​

    1 John 2: 2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    The world -> 2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world. Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
    This is the message.

    IF you have not repented and turned to God yet and turned to the Lord Jesus Christ or you have been on the fence of deciding or not.

    Jesus Christ has paid for the entire world (Everyone's) sins already. You have been forgiven now today and all that there is to do is to believe and have faith, that He overcame, death, sin, Satan, and the grave.

    Today you can have a relationship with God, today. Jesus Christ came, died, and resurrected and God loves you, now as you are -> And sent his son Jesus Christ to pay for the sins. - > who was resurrected from the dead by God.

    It doesn't require faith to have your sins forgiven.

    That work has already been done.

    Universal reconciliation -> the payment of all sins for all people, is a sound biblical doctrine.

    Universal salvation -> Is not true.

    Everyone in this life has to make a choice to turn towards God, and make a choice accept the Good News of the Lord Jesus Christ who came to save us to the kingdom of God that we can be spiritually reborn and live by the spirit and have a an relationship with God and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The choice you make decides on if you are saved to the Kingdom of God or not.

    Will you have faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, and Trust God and his promises?

    Link (under signature for more information)

    Do you have any comments or suggestions on any of these things?

    We do not use the forgiveness, for a license to sin however to grow in love towards God, and the Lord Jesus Christ for what they have done in this life for all people.




      • Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    [/QUOTE]
    N
     
  3. Jesusfann777888

    Jesusfann777888 Member

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    Jesus said, Repent and Believe. It also day's IN THE BIBLE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE ON JESUS AND THAT JESUS IS GOD ARE CONDEMNED BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED ON THE ONLY GOD.

    JESUS CHRIST Teach you THE TRUTH rather than those demons that are deceiving you!
     
  4. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    what is the practical application of this? one says you are forgiven after belief and the other says you're already forgiven but it is salvation that comes after belief. Both have the same goal and the same steps to achieve those goals and both have the same consequence. to put this bluntly, what's the point?
     
  5. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    okay thank you tribsigns

    2behold thank you for the scriptures

    damian

    they aren’t the same. Have quote in first post. Talking about how reconciliation is biblical.

    salvation is something that has to be a choice.

    people have to choose to have faith. And let God work in their life. You have to choose to believe in the promises of God, to become a child of God by belief and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    (that’s if they ever have been given the knowledge to choose in the first place)

    Say little Johnny has an atheist dad and Johnny never heard about God -God done paid for little Johnny’s sins. Little Johnny doesn’t even know who God is or has never heard. Little Johnny fell out a tree and hit his head and died. Where does little Johnny go, what is going to be took in account by God on this notion of little Johnny’s life?

    same thing for aborigines or people who haven’t heard the gospel.

    maybe sometimes we kind of miss that part about God consummating the profile of everything together .

    universal salvation would be no choice. All are going to heaven. (This means people who have heard about God and Jesus Christ) yet reject but it’s okay their sins are paid for they are Scott free/ no God will take in account everything they where given and at the end of life believers go to the kingdom of God, unbelievers outside the kingdom of God.

    they are not the same.
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Esau = cursed Edomites. Jacob = blessed Israelites. You need to grasp the whole picture. The fact James says people cannot control their tongues disproves free will.
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What makes you think God loves all people when salvation was only for the Jews? It's the same today.

    “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)
     
  8. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello dave please let me know if this helps or not.

    Salvation has been made for all people since the death and burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Salvation is a choice.

    (Personally believe that the first church that Jesus Christ was going to come and take away as a bride to Him, and him the groomsman, has already been taken and collected.)​

    God is calling all people to come to the knowledge and truth about his son Jesus Christ.


    Know this is an over quoted scripture but lets look at something inside of it okay, dave?​

    John 3:16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

    The word world here is Kosmos:2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

    God loved everyone in the entire world, He sent his son Jesus Christ. -> If they believe on Him they shall have eternal life. -> If is a choice, a person has to make a choice to believe in the promises of God or not.​

    Now of course -> Jesus Christ at first came preaching to the Jews -> Matthew 15:24 -> He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." -> Everything changed at his death and resurrection.

    Then you have Paul, as well as other letters -> Telling people of Rome, Colosee, Thessalonica, Philippines, to be ready for the coming of the Lord -> to be taken away -> as the bride.

    They were taken away but that did not stop the ability for all people to have a choice to either have a relationship with God in this life today, or not, and to partake in the heavenly kingdom which is offered by the Lord Jesus Christ through having faith on his bloodshed, and resurrection.​
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You have it exactly backward. People are dead in sin. They cannot discern Christ any more than the Pharisees did. They always choose a Christ idol they find acceptable.

    God however had mercy on some and paid for their sins on the cross. He also imputed Christ's righteousness to them, since they have none of their own.

    Based on this, God creates new spiritual life in these enabling them to discern the true Christ. This is the new birth. Because of this, you can discern and believe the gospel. The rest cannot.

    You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.
     
  10. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I'm not speaking about universal salvation and let's agree to reject universal salvation.

    You're saying there is universal reconciliation but salvation is upon belief but a common view is
    reconciliation/salvation happens at the same time upon belief. I'm saying I don't see a practical difference between these two models as both have the same goal and consequence and both have the same steps to reach that goal.

    I get you've moved reconciliation to before belief as a universal product of Christ's death and resurrection but what I don't get is how this changes anything.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021 at 1:42 PM
  11. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    hello dave

    Why do you believe that only some are shown Mercy?
    How is it you do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ paid for the sin of the world?​

    I agree God did save me to the kingdom of Heaven when I chose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but hell that was 26 years after my decision to not care or even think about reading the bible or learning about Christ Jesus.

    The more reading and learning, and growing in the knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ the more persuaded it was to become a believer in what God had to offer was choice.

    Which was at-least some type of choice on my part.

    Let me show you one example.

    Matthew 12:13 Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.

    Jesus Christ said to this man stretch out your hand.

    This man could have not stretched out his hand, he could have said No lord I can not do that to Jesus but what is happening here?

    An action - a choice - a choice to believe -> Have seen all these miracles Jesus Christ has been doing -> I choose to believe in him.​

    How is it you say a man can not make the choice?

    Hey damian

    As have previously stated what the stance of universal salvation was.

    The practice of universal reconciliation is that the Good News is God and Jesus Christ already saved your from your sins. Now this doesn't mean you are saved to the kingdom of God but partaking in the inheritance and being part of that promise of God is available right now today.

    It will take a person to choose by their own free-will, Did Jesus Christ really pay for my sins? What are the promises God has to offer me? What does it mean to have faith? Are you able to articulate it for the person?

    Yes Jesus Christ paid for your sins already, but he desires you to have an abundant life by the spirit, but that requires a person to trust God and to become born again by the spirit on their own free will choice -> and believe, and learn about the Lord Jesus Christ, and God if they so desire.

    @genez thank you for the correction of payment of sins.

    Which in the coming to belief -> Forgiveness of sins and thus a change of mind is occurring the more they grow in the knowledge of Christ Jesus -> by and through the holy spirit-> @Maria Billingsley thank you for your information it was helpful.

    Gods promises many things
    The Promises that God provides freely are :

    Relationship with God, and the Lord Jesus Christ;

    Resurrection from the dead, Peace with God being justified by Faith,

    You have the right to an inheritance in partaking and sharing in God's Kingdom now by faith which would make you a Child of God, or Son or Daughter of God if you walk by the spirit that is given,

    You are promised that God will never leave you, or forsake you.

    You are promised that you can have a prayerful relationship with God who loves and cares about everything going on in your life, and desires for you to cast your worries and burdens on Him,

    You are promised freedom of the bondage of sin, and
    the ability to overcome temptations when they are presented to you God will show you a way out,

    You are promised a renewed mind and a renewed heart by God,
    deliverance from darkness into light,

    You are also forgiven of your sins: Past; present: future and have freedom of Christ in you but you are not to use that to Sin willfully but instead live by the spirit -> For when someone loves God they will turn their will towards Him rather than their own self-will to serve themselves (God can work on your heart through this)

    You are promised if you live by the spirit to have kindness, joy, peace, love, gentleness, faithfulness.

    There are all of the promises of God that can be named from just off the top of the holy spirit/spirit of Christ with-in me. You can freely look any of these up and hopefully you will find each of them.​
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021 at 6:32 AM
  12. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If Christ paid for the sins of the world, including unbelief, all would be saved. And we know this is not the case.
     
  13. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    You are right. No one in this discussion has ever said that.

    You are right, unbelief = no salvation -> No renewed spiritual life -> no relationship with God -> Unbelievers (in my view) are people that once die in this life are resurrected outside the kingdom of God.

    You understand though it is all a choice by a person to reach out and to believe -> a choice a decision making process.

    Believe = Salvation -> renew spiritual life -> Relationship with God -> believers are resurrected and go to be with in the kingdom of God.
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's where you miss it. Belief is a fruit of the Holy Spirit God only gives to those He chose to save. Human faith is sin and cannot save.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I agree that everyone’s sins have been paid for but that doesn’t mean that everyone has been forgiven. Christ paid for our sins and He will decide who will be forgiven and who will not. In Colossians 1:22-23 Paul makes it clear that faith is required in order to receive Christ’s atonement.

    “And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
    ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB1995
     
  16. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Dave just curious

    Where do you get that from? Who taught you that?

    So God only choses select people to be saved in this life now today?

    Is this what you are suggesting?

    Where in the bible do you use scriptures to use to back up your claims of these things being the truth?

    What is human faith? Can you explain it more to me?

    Faith = 4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

    Believe = 4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.​

    You make a choice to believe and have confidence in faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and God saving you to the kingdom of God right?

    Or is it that I still have it backwards Dave L?

    God most certainly plays a part in our faith because of learning about God and the Lord Jesus Christ. God is the one who woos people to himself through Christ Jesus.​

    However can not people reject that? Or are they force to ride out something they never wanted or saw the need for?
     
  17. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    The fact that the elect nation of Israel, whom Jesus came for, (whom He longed for them to come to Him, yet they would not), who killed the prophets sent to them, and Jesus who came for them, because as Stephen said, THEY RESISTED THE HOLY SPIRIT. shreds calvinism and reformed dogma into itty bitty microscopic pieces lying in the trash can.

    The Holy Spirit is resistible - no such thing as irresistible grace.

    The fact that faith comes by Hearing Gods word, Romans 10:17, instead of by being regenerated by irresistible grace because of election before believing, also shreds the philosophy of fatalistic determinism masquerading as biblical doctrine, called reformed doctrine/ Calvinism into pieces.
     
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  18. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Thank you for your comment BNR32Fan.
     
  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    No that’s incorrect. Just because He paid for the sin doesn’t mean He is required to forgive it. That’s where people get confused. The scriptures repeatedly say that Christ paid for the sins of the whole world but only those who remain in Him will receive eternal life because only those who remain in Him will He acknowledge before The Father. Christ will decide who will be forgiven and who will not.
     
  20. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    He’s wrong - faith comes from hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17, to anyone who hears it, then we have a freewill choice to receive Jesus and be saved, John 1:12, or reject Jesus as His own elect whom He came for did, John 1:11.
     
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