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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AubreyM, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:29 PM.

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  1. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I heard it explained this way one time. A person went on an ocean voyage. He bought the cheapest ticket available. He took a quantity of food with him and he ate sparingly but it was not long until his food ran out. After going hungry for some time he approached a member of the crew explained his situation and said he would work for food. The crewmember asked to see his ticket then told the man your fare includes meals. Much like salvation the food was there for him all along all he had to do was go to the dining room and eat.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I did answer your question. Here’s the answer again. Just because Christ paid the price DOESN'T MEAN HE IS OBLIGATED TO GIVE EVERYONE A TICKET. “No one comes to The Father except thru Me”. It doesn’t matter if your sins were paid for because in order to enter heaven, Christ must first acknowledge you before The Father. We must all stand and be judged according to our deeds by Christ and He will deny anyone who did not abide in Him. I gave you several quotes straight from the scriptures that specifically state that Christ died for the world, the whole world, all men, all, everyone. Your saying that all those verses are wrong or that they don’t mean what they actually say when they’re saying it so many different ways to make it absolutely clear. Your saying the word world doesn’t mean all, your saying the whole world doesn’t mean all your saying all men doesn’t mean all, your saying all doesn’t mean all, your saying everyone doesn’t mean all. How many times and different ways do the scriptures have to say it before you will actually believe it?
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Thats an interesting analogy I like it.
     
  4. garol_mar

    garol_mar Kristano sen Bordo

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    Did Yeshua die for our "Sins" or did he show us what we should be prepared to do for living in his footsteps.
    Trying to be brave
    Garol
     
  5. Jaxxi

    Jaxxi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I disagree. As you see the words you posted, they are not " God so loved His chosen people," but are " God so loved the world." To me, this means that the invitation to call upon Him is open to ALL, even a sinner who follows satan his whole life and hears the good news before his death, and he repents and calls upon the Lord, he might be saved. It is up to the Lord to decide, but should he be baptized his chances are much greater. Jesus Christ is depending on us to spread the word, show the love and recruit as many as we can to learn of the love Jesus has for us and change to a more wholesome being that is found to be pleasing before God. We are not a cult closed off to only our own, but we welcome all newcomers, and encourage people to bring everyone who will come to hear the word of God, and join us in our worship so that they might feel our energy and the love that flows in and out of the building and hope that it stirs something in them to make that personal choice for themselves to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To say that He is only available to some is wrong. It says " so that whoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.
    I think whoever means anyone in the world.
     
  6. Astroqualia

    Astroqualia Born-again Truthseeker

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    OP is cherrypicking one mention of the subjects at hand to formulate this theory. It ignores the rest of the Bible that also talk about those same subjects at hand, which clearly illustrate that a true belief will always beget and require repentance from sin as part of being born again, and salvation. The type of belief in this OP, is the kind of "telling yourself in your head you believe" yet your life will not testify belief on judgement day when you stand before Christ. It ignores and contradicts the verses that mention repentance and belief is required for salvation. False teacher beware.
     
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  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Mercy is when you don't get the negative consequences you deserve.
    Compassion is when you do get the positive benefits that you don't deserve.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I did not have the time to read all your post, but got the gist of what you believe.

    You are making some very honest miss conclusions like most Christians today seem to be doing.

    You do not realize the miss assumptions you are making because they are the same ones most people make. God is actually very logical with the exception of having an illogical wonderful Love.

    Think about this for a moment:

    If Christ paid for all our sins 100%, what is left for God to forgive? And if God forgives all our sins 100% what is there left to pay?

    Where do you find in God’s scripture, Christ’s life or even secular life, where crime must be paid 100% in order to be forgiven 100%?

    Think about this also to begin with:

    Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of the Hebrew letter all see Jesus’ life and torture, humiliation and murder as a literal ransom payment, but God is not the undeserving criminal kidnapper being paid and God would not be so weak as to need to be pay satan. Sin and death cannot be paid off, since they are intangibles not able to change their behavior. So, who is the criminal kidnapper?

    When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner you are not trying to get him/her to accept: a book, a message, a church, a doctrine or your theology, but you are trying to get him to accept the huge free charitable gift of “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. If the sinner accepts that gift a child is set free (redeemed) to enter the Kingdom to be with his/her Father, but if the sinner refuses a child of God is kept out of the Kingdom and His side. The thing is: The ransom payment = “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”, so the unbelieving sinner would be the criminal kidnapper holding the child back from the Kingdom and refusing to let the child go if He/she refuses the payment.

    You whole idea about all dead people being in one of two places in heaven separated by a wall, has no scriptural support and a whole lot of issues:

    1. This messed up world we live in is also the very best place for willing humans to fulfill their objective, so any other place would be harder or impossible for humans to fulfill their objective. We can see from the virtual heaven on earth situation Adam and Eve were in and them not fulfilling their objective prior to being kicked out of the Garden, that type of place is terrible for completing man’s objective.

    2. It really goes against helping willing humans to fulfill their objective, so what is man’s objective?

    3. Just a little faith directed at God is needed to fulfill our objective and the easiest way on earth to extend that faith is to just humbly believe their must be a benevolent Creator, but if a sinner goes to heaven outside the wall, he/she is going to have knowledge of God’s existence and cannot place faith in God’s existence, since he/she has knowledge, so what are they placing “faith” in?

    4. Just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem all the good people in Jerusalem got out, leaving only bad people. There was enough food in Jerusalem to feed the population for over a year, but that requires fair distribution. Factions in Jerusalem destroyed each other’s food stocks. Having only bad people in Jerusalem created the worst place that has ever existed on earth for months.

    5. Think about yourself: second only to God is your Love (heart, soul, mind and energy) for other people, so if there are hurting people on the other side of the wall, where are you going to be 24/7? Heaven is to be a rest from our 24/7 hard work of helping others here on earth, yet those others will be coming with us to heaven, needing continuous help, so where is the rest?

    6. Sin has perceived selfish carnal pleasures for a season at least and if these people in heaven are receiving selfish carnal pleasures they really like, what is the draw for them to want to selfless spiritual Godly type Love others? Could you convince the prodigal to leave his riotous living, to humble return to his father, willing to accept pure undeserved charity, while he was enjoying his riotous lifestyle?
     
  9. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    The only sins left for a Christian is when they don’t show love for God and don’t show love for others. They will be notified by the Holy Spirit.

    The only sin left unpaid for the unbeliever is not believing, they have no notification from the Holy Spirit because they are spiritually dead.

    It’s unforgivable but that doesn’t mean they are gonna go burn in hell forever or anything like that it is a choice made not to accept God or Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit they offer freely due to believing and having faith.
     
  10. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But you are preaching to the world that Jesus has already settled the debt between me and His Father before I was even born.

    If this is true, and my debt is already paid, then I'm already reconciled to the Father.

    However, If Jesus died for the sins of the World, that "Whosoever believes on Him" shall have His Debt paid by this Blood, ALL Scriptures support this understanding.

    Your preaching that Jesus Blood washed the sins away from unrepentant sinners is popular, and makes a good religious marketing tool, but is simply not true, if the Scriptures are our guide.

    But you are preaching that Jesus has already acknowledged the entire world before the Father, and has already Paid the debt for the entire world.

    Deny them what? According to you, HE has already wiped all trespasses away from every person ever born.

    For whomever "Comes to Him", "Whoever denies themselves", whoever "Believes on Him". Anyone in the whole world who repents and turns to Him. When a man considers EVERY WORD He speaks, it becomes clear. When a man omits scriptures which doesn't promote a certain religious philosophy, not so much. That is what the Pharisees did. They Omitted the Words which brought their man made doctrines into question.

    The preaching that Jesus washed the Sin's away for these Pharisees is absurd.

    No, that's untrue. I'm saying the meaning of Scriptures that you separate from the rest of the Bible, changes when you humble yourself to the Christ of the Bible and Consider Every Word of God.

    I believe all that is written, not just the verses you can use to promote your religious philosophy, but also the verses I posted which bring question to your religious philosophy.

    You are making my point. Jesus is reconciling us, and the whole world, to HIS Father. No one can go to the Father except through Him. If my Debt, owed to God, was Paid before I was even born, then I am already reconciled to God, as HE would have no problem with me. My debt is settled.

    Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    The preaching that Jesus paid the debt owed to God of men HE didn't even know can not be supported by Scriptures at all. His Atoning Blood is there for anyone who follows HIS instruction regarding it. This is what the Bible teaches when you consider Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God.

    Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Their debt was not paid for by the Christ, they rejected His Sacrifice.
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That’s not what the scriptures actually say brother.

    “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭3:14-16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

    Jesus didn’t say whosoever believes in Me shall have his debt paid. He said he shall not perish and have eternal life.

    Christ paid the price not us so just because Christ paid the price doesn’t mean that we are justified. We’re not justified unless Christ says we are. He paid the price so it’s His decision which is why He will be the one to judge every person. I’m not preaching that everyone is justified (made right with God). I’m preaching what the scriptures actually say, that Christ died to pay for the sins of the whole world. Brother I don’t preach easy believism. I preach conditional salvation, I refute eternal security. I’m not one of those believe only and your saved no matter what you do advocates. All I’m saying is that the scriptures specifically state several times that Christ paid for the sins of the world, the whole world, for all men, for everyone and that He will decide who is justified and who is not.
     
  12. George95

    George95 CF Tech Master Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    Closed on OP request.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
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